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Florida's nonsense with life sentencing for stupid reasons

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:12 pm
by Benuty
Charles Grodin
Several years ago I read a piece in The New York Times by Adam Liptak about Ryan Holle. Ryan, who had no prior record, is serving a life sentence with no chance of parole in Florida. He was convicted of pre-meditated murder, even though no one, including the prosecutor, disputes that Ryan was asleep in his bed at home at the time of the crime. This could only happen in America, because we are the only country that retains the Felony Murder Rule. What the Felony Murder Rule essentially says is if anyone has anything to do with a felony in which a murder takes place, such as a robbery, that person is as guilty as the person who has committed the murder. Every other country including England, India and Canada has gotten rid of it because of its unintended consequences. In America, Michigan, Kentucky and Hawaii no longer have the law. The Canadian Supreme Court ruled, when they discarded the Felony Murder Rule, that a person should be held responsible for his own actions not the actions of others.

Exactly what did Ryan Holle do? At a party in his apartment over ten years ago, he lent his car to his roommate and went to sleep. He had lent his car to his roommate many times before with no negative consequences. This time the roommate and others went to a house where they knew a woman was selling marijuana from a safe. They planned to get the marijuana, but in the course of their break-in a teenage girl was killed. Those at the scene all received appropriately harsh sentences, but so did Ryan Holle. I got involved with the case shortly after I read Adam Liptak’s piece. I have been advocating on behalf of clemency for Ryan, who was first offered a plea deal of ten years but chose to go to trial. I’m sure it was difficult for a young man, who had never been arrested, and who believed he had done nothing to accept that he should go to prison for ten years, so he went to trial, was convicted and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole. He is now in his eleventh year of incarceration. Again, this is a young man who was home asleep in bed at the time of the crime. I personally know of no other felony murder conviction where the person was not even present, and the pre-meditated part of the conviction suggests that Ryan knew his car was going to be used in the course of a murder, which to me, isn’t credible. To the best of my knowledge, in the entire history of the criminal justice system in America, no one has ever been convicted and sentenced to life in prison for loaning a car and going to sleep.

A few years ago I was on a television show with the father of the girl who was murdered in the robbery attempt. The father felt that it was entirely justified that Ryan Holle spend his life in prison. At the time, I couldn’t bring myself to say what I was feeling. I felt the father and mother were a lot more responsible for their daughter’s death than Ryan Holle. The mother did actually serve three years in prison for selling drugs, but both parents in no way should have been involved in selling drugs from their house. It would only be a question of time before the wrong person knocked on the door. In my judgment, parents who would do that with two teenage daughters at home have a lot more responsibility for this tragedy than Ryan Holle.

Ryan writes me from prison telling me that when he gets out, he plans to speak out against the Felony Murder Rule. Unless people of good will and common sense publicize his case, Ryan Holle will die in prison.

Source: http://www.thenation.com/article/178984 ... ing-sleep#
Other Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-PLKwJX9-8&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

As much as my other thread spun out of control because of something. Here is something sure to make you hardcore punish tubers all wet down there. Wait a minute....

I honestly really don't know to say other than the fact Florida needs to rethink what the hell they do down there.

So what say you NSG's unleavened and order leavened masses?

I should note I realize this was some time ago but still this is pure nonsense given it still exists.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:21 pm
by Empire of Narnia
I usually agree with very harsh laws, but that is pretty messed up.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:31 pm
by Lemanrussland
Makes little sense. There's a reason the US is one of the only developed countries which still does it.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:40 pm
by Collaborative Commonalist Memecracy
Ryan Holle knowingly gave the car to his buddies for a robbery to his buddies. This is my understanding of what he told the police. This reads like a gang situation. What gangs often do is they own property in common. For example, one person will buy a gun, then have the identifying marks and numbers removed, then hand it over to another gang member to use in a shooting. This scrambles the law.
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/0514 ... 8101.shtml This is another article, it states Brian knew they were going to rob and beat someone. The murder charge may not make sense, but a robbery and assault charge would make perfect sense. He probably did not know about murder from what I am reading.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:44 pm
by Empire of Narnia
Collaborative Commonalist Memecracy wrote:Ryan Holle knowingly gave the car to his buddies for a robbery to his buddies. This is my understanding of what he told the police. This reads like a gang situation. What gangs often do is they own property in common. For example, one person will buy a gun, then have the identifying marks and numbers removed, then hand it over to another gang member to use in a shooting. This scrambles the law.
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/0514 ... 8101.shtml This is another article, it states Brian knew they were going to rob and beat someone. The murder charge may not make sense, but a robbery and assault charge would make perfect sense.

Good point. I thought the sources may have been a little biased, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. If he knew his car was going to be used in a robbery he should be charged.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:48 pm
by Lemanrussland
Empire of Narnia wrote:
Collaborative Commonalist Memecracy wrote:Ryan Holle knowingly gave the car to his buddies for a robbery to his buddies. This is my understanding of what he told the police. This reads like a gang situation. What gangs often do is they own property in common. For example, one person will buy a gun, then have the identifying marks and numbers removed, then hand it over to another gang member to use in a shooting. This scrambles the law.
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/0514 ... 8101.shtml This is another article, it states Brian knew they were going to rob and beat someone. The murder charge may not make sense, but a robbery and assault charge would make perfect sense.

Good point. I thought the sources may have been a little biased, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. If he knew his car was going to be used in a robbery he should be charged.

With accessory to burglary, not murder. It's too bad the US doesn't use common sense, and doesn't charge people based on the crimes they actually commit.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
by Empire of Narnia
Lemanrussland wrote:
Empire of Narnia wrote:Good point. I thought the sources may have been a little biased, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. If he knew his car was going to be used in a robbery he should be charged.

With accessory to burglary, not murder. It's too bad the US doesn't use common sense, and doesn't charge people not based on the crimes they actually commit.

I agree with the murder charge as well. Everybody knows armed robbery can go wrong but he assisted in the crime anyways. He could have simply refused to help.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:53 pm
by Greed and Death
Collaborative Commonalist Memecracy wrote:Ryan Holle knowingly gave the car to his buddies for a robbery to his buddies. This is my understanding of what he told the police. This reads like a gang situation. What gangs often do is they own property in common. For example, one person will buy a gun, then have the identifying marks and numbers removed, then hand it over to another gang member to use in a shooting. This scrambles the law.
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/0514 ... 8101.shtml This is another article, it states Brian knew they were going to rob and beat someone. The murder charge may not make sense, but a robbery and assault charge would make perfect sense.

And that is what makes the difference, of course Holle's attorney will frame it as he just innocently loaned his freind a car.

In order for the state to Convict Holle they had to prove he loaned the car to his friend for the purpose of robbery/burglary etc. The reason loaning the car for the purpose of committing a felony becomes important is it makes Holle an accomplice and an accomplice is guilty of the same crime as the principle.
Florida has a list of felonies that if they result in murder than the other parties involved automatically get murder convicted if they are convicted of the murder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_mur ... e_(Florida) Among these are both burglary and home invasion Robbery.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:55 pm
by Llamalandia
So did he know he was loaning his car to his friends and that his friends were planning to go cruise over to get some weed? If he did, the sentence does kinda sorta make sense. I mean anytime you here about something illegal going down you want to distance yourself as much as possible because even a seemingly innocous situation like buying pot can turn quickly into well...this. That being said, if he had no part in any planning or conspiracy and he believed in good faith that he was loaning the car to friends for legit purposes then no he should be set free.

This is definetly a good illustration of when prosecutorial discretion is the better part of valour. I mean I fail to see how the life sentence really serves justice, why not go with a serious but lesser charge? :eyebrow:

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:56 pm
by Margno
"If you are proceeding on the Enemy's idea of "justice" and suggesting that your opportunities and intentions should be taken into account, then I am not sure that a charge of heresy does not lie against you. At any rate, you will soon find that the justice of Hell is purely realistic, and concerned only with results."

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:57 pm
by Geilinor
This is ridiculous, he had nothing to do with the murder and nobody would think that their car would become involved in a murder when they loaned it to a friend.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:58 pm
by Llamalandia
greed and death wrote:
Collaborative Commonalist Memecracy wrote:Ryan Holle knowingly gave the car to his buddies for a robbery to his buddies. This is my understanding of what he told the police. This reads like a gang situation. What gangs often do is they own property in common. For example, one person will buy a gun, then have the identifying marks and numbers removed, then hand it over to another gang member to use in a shooting. This scrambles the law.
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/0514 ... 8101.shtml This is another article, it states Brian knew they were going to rob and beat someone. The murder charge may not make sense, but a robbery and assault charge would make perfect sense.

And that is what makes the difference, of course Holle's attorney will frame it as he just innocently loaned his freind a car.

In order for the state to Convict Holle they had to prove he loaned the car to his friend for the purpose of robbery/burglary etc. The reason loaning the car for the purpose of committing a felony becomes important is it makes Holle an accomplice and an accomplice is guilty of the same crime as the principle.
Florida has a list of felonies that if they result in murder than the other parties involved automatically get murder convicted if they are convicted of the murder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_mur ... e_(Florida) Among these are both burglary and home invasion Robbery.



Oh, well in that case then, yeah, hand of one is the hand of all. I remember the cops speaking at my elementary school one day and saying how even if youre not involved in a crime, if your in a car with people who have or are about to commit a crime you can be charged right along with them. It was largely meant as an admonishment to be careful who you associate with because you can never be too careful. ;)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:58 pm
by Geilinor
Llamalandia wrote:So did he know he was loaning his car to his friends and that his friends were planning to go cruise over to get some weed? If he did, the sentence does kinda sorta make sense. I mean anytime you here about something illegal going down you want to distance yourself as much as possible because even a seemingly innocous situation like buying pot can turn quickly into well...this. That being said, if he had no part in any planning or conspiracy and he believed in good faith that he was loaning the car to friends for legit purposes then no he should be set free.

This is definetly a good illustration of when prosecutorial discretion is the better part of valour. I mean I fail to see how the life sentence really serves justice, why not go with a serious but lesser charge? :eyebrow:

Weed rarely ever leads to murder.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:00 pm
by Geilinor
greed and death wrote:
Collaborative Commonalist Memecracy wrote:Ryan Holle knowingly gave the car to his buddies for a robbery to his buddies. This is my understanding of what he told the police. This reads like a gang situation. What gangs often do is they own property in common. For example, one person will buy a gun, then have the identifying marks and numbers removed, then hand it over to another gang member to use in a shooting. This scrambles the law.
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/0514 ... 8101.shtml This is another article, it states Brian knew they were going to rob and beat someone. The murder charge may not make sense, but a robbery and assault charge would make perfect sense.

And that is what makes the difference, of course Holle's attorney will frame it as he just innocently loaned his freind a car.

In order for the state to Convict Holle they had to prove he loaned the car to his friend for the purpose of robbery/burglary etc. The reason loaning the car for the purpose of committing a felony becomes important is it makes Holle an accomplice and an accomplice is guilty of the same crime as the principle.
Florida has a list of felonies that if they result in murder than the other parties involved automatically get murder convicted if they are convicted of the murder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_mur ... e_(Florida) Among these are both burglary and home invasion Robbery.

Never mind, if he knew that his friends were going to commit a robbery, that's a different situation.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:15 pm
by Shie
This life sentence wasn't stupid, the man committed armed robbery, a very serious crime.
ImageImage

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:15 pm
by Geilinor
Shie wrote:This life sentence wasn't stupid, the man committed armed robbery, a very serious crime.
(Image)

He was an accessory at most, and that's if he knew his friends were planning armed robbery.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:17 pm
by Shie
Geilinor wrote:
Shie wrote:This life sentence wasn't stupid, the man committed armed robbery, a very serious crime.
(Image)

He was an accessory at most, and that's if he knew his friends were planning armed robbery.

Someone is dead, if he knew then he is directly responsible. It's better to be safe and punish him than let a criminal walk free.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:33 pm
by Greed and Death
Geilinor wrote:
Shie wrote:This life sentence wasn't stupid, the man committed armed robbery, a very serious crime.
(Image)

He was an accessory at most, and that's if he knew his friends were planning armed robbery.

Accessories are punished for the same crime as the principle. There is a thread from when I was back in Law school where Neo Art admonished me for forgetting that.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:54 pm
by Llamalandia
Geilinor wrote:
greed and death wrote:And that is what makes the difference, of course Holle's attorney will frame it as he just innocently loaned his freind a car.

In order for the state to Convict Holle they had to prove he loaned the car to his friend for the purpose of robbery/burglary etc. The reason loaning the car for the purpose of committing a felony becomes important is it makes Holle an accomplice and an accomplice is guilty of the same crime as the principle.
Florida has a list of felonies that if they result in murder than the other parties involved automatically get murder convicted if they are convicted of the murder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_mur ... e_(Florida) Among these are both burglary and home invasion Robbery.

Never mind, if he knew that his friends were going to commit a robbery, that's a different situation.


Drugs addicts can and will go to rather extraordinary lengths for any high they can get. Besides as was pointed out he apparently knew his friends were planning to steal the pot and not "legitimately" buy it. And robberies definitely can and do in plenty of instances turn violent and even deadly. ;)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:14 pm
by Benuty
greed and death wrote:
Geilinor wrote:He was an accessory at most, and that's if he knew his friends were planning armed robbery.

Accessories are punished for the same crime as the principle. There is a thread from when I was back in Law school where Neo Art admonished me for forgetting that.

That makes about as much sense as giving the death penalty to a news paper vender for selling a newspaper to a man who used it to brutally beat an elderly couple to death. I mean sure you could argue if it was intentional but given the massive amount of newspapers sold in the U.S alone it seems absurd.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:15 pm
by The Serbian Empire
Time for me to get the excavator out and dig a massive trench to make Florida an island.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:17 pm
by Benuty
The Serbian Empire wrote:Time for me to get the excavator out and dig a massive trench to make Florida an island.

We can keep Boca it makes a nice vacation spot in the winter.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:17 pm
by Alcase
God damn it Tallahassee!

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:23 pm
by Des-Bal
What they neglect is that Holle had been told they planned to rob the house. He was helping them commit the crime that lead to the murder, he really is an accomplice.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:27 pm
by The Serbian Empire
Des-Bal wrote:What they neglect is that Holle had been told they planned to rob the house. He was helping them commit the crime that lead to the murder, he really is an accomplice.

And if a murder happens in the robbery, Holle becomes a murderer.