The eroding influence of the left

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

It's funny because so many people have said this and yet it's never happened. Believe it or not life used to suck a LOT more for the poor a few decades ago then it does now.

So it will be the worse case.

We will have a major civilization breakdown thanks to the overexploitation of natural resources essential not only to various kinds of technology but also urban and developed country rural life as we know it, and climate changes that will make our lives terribly harder and will kill millions of people, along an economic crisis caused by events such as peak oil.

And THEN we will either learn to shift to a form of very left-leaning, cohesive, non-capital-centered society that works, or perish.

[Geilinor]

It's funny because so many people have said this and yet it's never happened. Believe it or not life used to suck a LOT more for the poor a few decades ago then it does now.

So it will be the worse case.

We will have a major civilization breakdown thanks to the overexploitation of natural resources essential not only to various kinds of technology but also urban and developed country rural life as we know it, and climate changes that will make our lives terribly harder and will kill millions of people, along an economic crisis caused by events such as peak oil.

And THEN we will either learn to shift to a form of very left-leaning, cohesive, non-capital-centered society that works, or perish.

I think scientific research and future developments in technology will avert such an environmental crisis. Here's a good example: http://www.navytimes.com/article/20121013/NEWS/210130317/Navy-eyes-turning-sea-water-into-jet-fuel

[The Liberated Territories]

It's funny because so many people have said this and yet it's never happened. Believe it or not life used to suck a LOT more for the poor a few decades ago then it does now.

So it will be the worse case.

We will have a major civilization breakdown thanks to the overexploitation of natural resources essential not only to various kinds of technology but also urban and developed country rural life as we know it, and climate changes that will make our lives terribly harder and will kill millions of people, along an economic crisis caused by events such as peak oil.

And THEN we will either learn to shift to a form of very left-leaning, cohesive, non-capital-centered society that works, or perish.

Diminishing resources would not force humanity to get along, if anything humanity would be divided further. Groups would be incentivized to maintain as much resources as possible to ensure their survival and dominance.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

So it will be the worse case.

We will have a major civilization breakdown thanks to the overexploitation of natural resources essential not only to various kinds of technology but also urban and developed country rural life as we know it, and climate changes that will make our lives terribly harder and will kill millions of people, along an economic crisis caused by events such as peak oil.

And THEN we will either learn to shift to a form of very left-leaning, cohesive, non-capital-centered society that works, or perish.

I think scientific research and future developments in technology will avert such an environmental crisis. Here's a good example: http://www.navytimes.com/article/20121013/NEWS/210130317/Navy-eyes-turning-sea-water-into-jet-fuel

It'd be all fine and dandy if we weren't like 15 billion or more people in very unequal life conditions and political systems by then.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Diminishing resources would not force humanity to get along, if anything humanity would be divided further. Groups would be incentivized to maintain as much resources as possible to ensure their survival and dominance.

Guess I should be proud in my country's overexplotation of rainforests and what there is below them now?

Capitalism as we know it is far more encompassing than nations and their supposed representative democracies. Most of Earth's political elites share a bed with media and economic elites.

[Geilinor]

I think scientific research and future developments in technology will avert such an environmental crisis. Here's a good example: http://www.navytimes.com/article/20121013/NEWS/210130317/Navy-eyes-turning-sea-water-into-jet-fuel

It'd be all fine and dandy if we weren't like 15 billion or more people in very unequal life conditions and political systems by then.

15 billion is never going to happen. The world population is expected to peak before 9 billion. http://www.cnbc.com/id/101018722

[Abarrach]

Truly? Left-wing politcs are dying out? Does anyone really think that? If you think that you should come to Argentina for a while, since 2003 the goverment has been implementing left-wing policies. But since they lost last year's elections I don't think they can keep doing that.

[Diopolis]

The left will eventually fade away when people realize what a lie the enlightenment was.

[Divair2]

It's funny because so many people have said this and yet it's never happened. Believe it or not life used to suck a LOT more for the poor a few decades ago then it does now.

So it will be the worse case.

We will have a major civilization breakdown thanks to the overexploitation of natural resources essential not only to various kinds of technology but also urban and developed country rural life as we know it, and climate changes that will make our lives terribly harder and will kill millions of people, along an economic crisis caused by events such as peak oil.

And THEN we will either learn to shift to a form of very left-leaning, cohesive, non-capital-centered society that works, or perish.

Civilization breakdown? Yea, no.

[Casita]

I'm not so sure about the correctness of this statement, but to me it always seemed to me that all the parties are simply becoming more moderate. Politics is getting boring...

I tend to agree with this statement. Most if not all leftists political party's are about reforms and low risk action. All of which feeds into moderate and right agendas.

[Arumdaum]

Well giving a list of the happiest countries under Capitalism doesn't exactly show that Capitalism makes people happy, obviously one country has to be number one. It's a pretty dishonest argument basically.

And clearly Arumandaum's solution is to just assume that people under socialist countries will somehow be happier.

Arumdaum*

Just assume? I don't do that. However, on the other hand, you seem to be just assuming that people under capitalism are inherently happier.

[Geilinor]

And clearly Arumandaum's solution is to just assume that people under socialist countries will somehow be happier.

Arumdaum*

Just assume? I don't do that. However, on the other hand, you seem to be just assuming that people under capitalism are inherently happier.

We have no examples of socialism or communism to compare capitalism with.

[Chestaan]

Arumdaum*

Just assume? I don't do that. However, on the other hand, you seem to be just assuming that people under capitalism are inherently happier.

We have no examples of socialism or communism to compare capitalism with.

Not neccessarily true, but if that is the case then why did you post about Denmark being the happiest nation in the world? If there's no examples of socialism to compare Denmark to then what point were you trying to make?

[Duvniask]

Has it occurred to you that, Denmark is #1 in a world with only capitalist or state capitalist countries?

I asked you already. Why should they adopt socialism?

Because we need to remove the root cause of the problem, not mitigate it by just addressing the symptoms, or it will never go away. We are right in opposing the authoritarian and alienating nature of wage labour, private property and class dictatorship, because they are unjust and unnecessary.

[Geilinor]

I asked you already. Why should they adopt socialism?

Because we need to remove the root cause of the problem, not mitigate it by just addressing the symptoms, or it will never go away. We are right in opposing the authoritarian and alienating nature of wage labour, private property and class dictatorship, because they are unjust and unnecessary.

How is wage labor authoritarian?

[The Black Forrest]

So it will be the worse case.

We will have a major civilization breakdown thanks to the overexploitation of natural resources essential not only to various kinds of technology but also urban and developed country rural life as we know it, and climate changes that will make our lives terribly harder and will kill millions of people, along an economic crisis caused by events such as peak oil.

And THEN we will either learn to shift to a form of very left-leaning, cohesive, non-capital-centered society that works, or perish.

Diminishing resources would not force humanity to get along, if anything humanity would be divided further. Groups would be incentivized to maintain as much resources as possible to ensure their survival and dominance.

Indeed. Too much of the "I've got mine fuck you all" mentality exists today.

[The Serbian Empire]

There will be sometime where poor people's lives will suck so much, that they will get too frustrated to be brainwashed by organized religion as historically and get revolutionary once more.

We need just another liter in a 10 million gallon reservoir in Brazil for that to happen. And it will, if the people put a right-wing party at the top again and it turns out to fuck our lives just like Fernando Henrique did in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I don't want to catch dengue fever or stand to week-long blackouts again myself. In São Paulo, where they didn't transition to centre-left politics as most of the country and stayed with Fernando Henrique's party, they now are very close to not having enough water to take showers (some are already doing it in neighbor's houses) or washing their dishes.

And then the moderate liberal lack of empathy will be foolish.

The left can talk a good talk, but the problem is it's easier to attract voters with tax cuts than with tax increases. The left tends to be too reform based to counter a sharp move to the right. They slowly inch left when the Right Wing will sharp move right.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

The left can talk a good talk, but the problem is it's easier to attract voters with tax cuts than with tax increases. The left tends to be too reform based to counter a sharp move to the right. They slowly inch left when the Right Wing will sharp move right.

Brazil doesn't work with tax cuts. As I said here, too radically liberal economic policies, always bad applied that they are, causes damage at providing us basic services like electricity, water distribution and other basic infrastructure. Our taxes punish poverty. Our rich are richer through comparison with the poor than about all other countries. The right here is interested at stealing money too, and the country isn't functional enough to work with less funding exactly because there's a loss of money waste. This is the situation in various other developing countries.

[The Liberated Territories]

Diminishing resources would not force humanity to get along, if anything humanity would be divided further. Groups would be incentivized to maintain as much resources as possible to ensure their survival and dominance.

Guess I should be proud in my country's overexplotation of rainforests and what there is below them now?

Capitalism as we know it is far more encompassing than nations and their supposed representative democracies. Most of Earth's political elites share a bed with media and economic elites.

There is a tendency to be proud of a group that you identify with. At it's most extreme, it manifests in ultranationalism, ethnic or cultural chauvinism, and ideological based chauvinism. However, that same tendency can also manifest through tolerance for deviance (within the group), sacrifice, and loyalty. You may not be proud of your country, or you identify with a group more than your country, or perhaps you redirect any criticism about your country onto other groups (ironically within your country). Personal factors, I won't judge you. Judge for yourself.

Naturally. Any loyalty that the CEO has is either for himself or his tribe (the corporation) and that may not align with the national interest or "general welfare." Greed for corporations, as I was talking about, is them trying to control as much resources as possible in competition, because it benefits them as a whole. Obviously, said CEO is going to look out for alliances with other powerful people with authority (media personalities and politicians) and attempt to forge a bond, especially if they see too much competition. People tend to unite due to a shared "enemy").

[The Serbian Empire]

The left can talk a good talk, but the problem is it's easier to attract voters with tax cuts than with tax increases. The left tends to be too reform based to counter a sharp move to the right. They slowly inch left when the Right Wing will sharp move right.

Brazil doesn't work with tax cuts. As I said here, too radically liberal economic policies, always bad applied that they are, causes damage at providing us basic services like electricity, water distribution and other basic infrastructure. Our taxes punish poverty. Our rich are richer through comparison with the poor than about all other countries. The right here is interested at stealing money too, and the country isn't functional enough to work with less funding exactly because there's a loss of money waste. This is the situation in various other developing countries.

That's the economic trap that will always leave countries like Brazil in the developing category with very few able to make the leap (Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea) to developed within a person's lifetime.

[Viritica]

Arumdaum*

Just assume? I don't do that. However, on the other hand, you seem to be just assuming that people under capitalism are inherently happier.

We have no examples of socialism or communism to compare capitalism with.

Basically this.

[Viritica]

Because we need to remove the root cause of the problem, not mitigate it by just addressing the symptoms, or it will never go away. We are right in opposing the authoritarian and alienating nature of wage labour, private property and class dictatorship, because they are unjust and unnecessary.

How is wage labor authoritarian?

Didn't you get the memo? Anything capitalist is authoritarian.

[Scholmeria]

The problem with left-wing parties in western europe is that they abandom the working class and relie on muslim immigrants.

[Yanalia]

Because we need to remove the root cause of the problem, not mitigate it by just addressing the symptoms, or it will never go away. We are right in opposing the authoritarian and alienating nature of wage labour, private property and class dictatorship, because they are unjust and unnecessary.

How is wage labor authoritarian?

The labourer must sell their labour power to the capitalist in order to receive the money they need to survive. Even accepting that only equivalent values can be exchanged on the market, the value of that labour power is only the amount of labour necessary to sustain the labourer, while the value of the produced commodities exceeds this due to the potential for labour to create value. This system is already authoritarian because the labourer must cede their natural value-creating abilities to the capitalist as a commodity. In practice, the capitalists also have a power imbalance over labour, thus allowing the determination of what is socially necessary to upkeep a labourer to be skewed in favour of the capitalist, lowering the value of labour power and deepening the amount of surplus value extracted from the labourer. Thus the system forces labourers to give up their ability to create value in exchange for wages which are inherently not fair recompense.

[Miyager]

There will be sometime where poor people's lives will suck so much, that they will get too frustrated to be brainwashed by organized religion as historically and get revolutionary once more.

We need just another liter in a 10 million gallon reservoir in Brazil for that to happen. And it will, if the people put a right-wing party at the top again and it turns out to fuck our lives just like Fernando Henrique did in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I don't want to catch dengue fever or stand to week-long blackouts again myself. In São Paulo, where they didn't transition to centre-left politics as most of the country and stayed with Fernando Henrique's party, they now are very close to not having enough water to take showers (some are already doing it in neighbor's houses) or washing their dishes.

And then the moderate liberal lack of empathy will be foolish.

Ha. That's a good one.