Scotland for the Scots, Catalonia for the Catalonians

[Des-Bal]

The idea of the nationstate is that the nation is a culture separate and more politically relevant than any others.

[Margno]

As you know, there are burgeoning succession movements in places like Scotland and Catalonia. One of the main reasons for this is they feel they need to preserve their culture. But is this good? I don't think so. I think a multicultural society benefits us all. I also think the government should stop bending over backwards for these ethnic and cultural groups. Having a culture isn't succession material.

What do you think? Is a minority culture a reason for succession/autonomy?

So many contradictions. You believe in a multicultural world, yet you don't recognize the right to preserve such cultures. When a culture is absorbed by a bigger entity, that's not multiculturalism, it's cultural imperialism. And it will eventually be heading toward a monocultural world.

Yeah. This, basically.

[Kaztropol]

As you know, there are burgeoning succession movements in places like Scotland and Catalonia. One of the main reasons for this is they feel they need to preserve their culture. But is this good? I don't think so. I think a multicultural society benefits us all. I also think the government should stop bending over backwards for these ethnic and cultural groups. Having a culture isn't succession material.

What do you think? Is a minority culture a reason for succession/autonomy?

I'm just going to point out that there is more than one "Scottish Culture".

The obvious difference is the Highland/Lowland thing, but there are many more. The North-East of Scotland has the Doric language, as an example. The Orkney and Shetland islands are different as well. The Borders have a different culture as well.

As for "preserving culture", current Scottish Government policy does nothing of the sort, and effectively does the reverse, imposing a culture on the rest of the population.

Gaelic language schools as an example - there was a Gaelic language school opened fairly recently in Ayrshire, where Robert Burns the poet lived. Robert Burns who wrote such a volume and quality of poetry in the Scots language, not Gaelic.
The Northern Ireland administration spends more on Scots language culture, than the Scottish Government does.
The Scottish Governments endorsement of such things as "Tartan Week" in New York, is another example.

Tartan, kilts, Gaelic and whisky are things from Highlander culture, which is not the culture of the majority of the Scottish peoples.

Sometimes, some people in Scotland dont seem to realise the "No True Scotsman" thing is a fallacy.

[Saint-Thor]

So many contradictions. You believe in a multicultural world, yet you don't recognize the right to preserve such cultures. When a culture is absorbed by a bigger entity, that's not multiculturalism, it's cultural imperialism. And it will eventually be heading toward a monocultural world.

Is multiculturalism really worth splitting up countries over?

This is not what I said. I don't think any of those regions or provinces want to secede solely for cultural reasons. In some cases, it's not even an issue.

[Blazedtown]

Is multiculturalism really worth splitting up countries over?

This is not what I said. I don't think any of those regions or provinces want to secede solely for cultural reasons. In some cases, it's not even an issue.

Then for what? From what I've heard about the Catalan movement, they want to join the EU and NATO after they're independent. So what's the point if at the end of the day they'll be using the same currency, have the same open borders, the same general economic policies, and probably the same foreign policy? I have never heard a reason for Catalan or Scottish independence other than because they want to. Just because you want something doesn't mean its a good idea. For example, I want a GTO with a trunk full of cocaine, in fact you could say that a super majority of me wants it. Does that mean its a good idea?

[Libertarian California]

As you know, there are burgeoning succession movements in places like Scotland and Catalonia. One of the main reasons for this is they feel they need to preserve their culture. But is this good? I don't think so. I think a multicultural society benefits us all. I also think the government should stop bending over backwards for these ethnic and cultural groups. Having a culture isn't succession material.

What do you think? Is a minority culture a reason for succession/autonomy?

Why only for minority cultures?

[Libertarian California]

As you know, there are burgeoning succession movements in places like Scotland and Catalonia. One of the main reasons for this is they feel they need to preserve their culture. But is this good? I don't think so. I think a multicultural society benefits us all. I also think the government should stop bending over backwards for these ethnic and cultural groups. Having a culture isn't succession material.

What do you think? Is a minority culture a reason for succession/autonomy?

So many contradictions. You believe in a multicultural world, yet you don't recognize the right to preserve such cultures. When a culture is absorbed by a bigger entity, that's not multiculturalism, it's cultural imperialism. And it will eventually be heading toward a monocultural world.

That's the inevitable result of multiculturalism. Well, either that or violent ethnic conflict.

See: Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia, two states with explicit multicultural agendas, and they were complete failures.

[Blazedtown]

So many contradictions. You believe in a multicultural world, yet you don't recognize the right to preserve such cultures. When a culture is absorbed by a bigger entity, that's not multiculturalism, it's cultural imperialism. And it will eventually be heading toward a monocultural world.

That's the inevitable result of multiculturalism. Well, either that or violent ethnic conflict.

See: Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia, two states with explicit multicultural agendas, and they were complete failures.

And both very shitty places to live generally.

[Libertarian California]

That's the inevitable result of multiculturalism. Well, either that or violent ethnic conflict.

See: Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia, two states with explicit multicultural agendas, and they were complete failures.

And both very shitty places to live generally.

Multicultural states are authoritarian, corrupt, and wracked by ethnic divisions?

What? No way!

[Nekoargentina]

I think it's fine to expose legitimate grievances, but I'm not sure it's really *necessary* to demand independence. Here in Argentina we have a lot of Welsh-Argentines (descendants of 19th century Welsh immigrants) mostly in Patagonia, in the South. I remember a case a few years back, of an old Welsh-Argentine lady that was denied entry into the UK because of some visa issues, but her only intention in the country was to take part in a Welsh-language conference so that she could keep alive the Argentine dialect of Welsh back in Argentina, as she was a Welsh-language teacher (which is still spoken to this day in Patagonia), and I remember the commentary section on that article was full of angry UK-Welsh people saying their culture and language was being discriminated. I don't think that's true - both the UK and Spain are very democratic countries - but I think the independence movements could serve as a great wake-up call to air some grievances of those minorities. I don't think independence would benefit these minorities, but it might serve as a wake-up call to make their countries better, and I do believe that's what's democracy is all about. I admire that these countries can debate things like separatism so openly and with no serious strife, it's something the rest of the world ought to learn.

[SD_Film Artists]

Who said anything about forcing people? And cultural identity is not a binary choice between British and Scottish.

I get what you're thinking here: that if, for example, Scottish, English, Welsh, and Irish cultures are all their own things, then British culture must be a larger culture containing all four. So it would have four times the content of any one of them: four times the art, four times the music, four times the body of law. But that's if all four are complete cultures. If Scottish art has its own distinctive style, English art has its, and so on, then there is four times the art of one culture. But if all four are averaged and turned into one artistic style, which is practiced throughout the UK, then there is only as much art in Britain as in one culture. That's what I'm talking about with governance. If Scotland is subjected to laws it wouldn't have voted for itself because an averaging of the entire UK supports them, then Britain is not a larger culture containing Scotland. It's an imperialist culture chopping the head and feet off of Scotland that Scotland may better fit within itself.

Perhaps I'm taking your example too literally here, but as long as there are open boarders and communication Scottish culture will always blend into a wider British culture regardless of whether the government is in Westminster or Holyrood.

[Alyakia]

As you know, there are burgeoning succession movements in places like Scotland and Catalonia. One of the main reasons for this is they feel they need to preserve their culture. But is this good? I don't think so. I think a multicultural society benefits us all. I also think the government should stop bending over backwards for these ethnic and cultural groups. Having a culture isn't succession material.

What do you think? Is a minority culture a reason for succession/autonomy?

pretty sure it's more to do with wanting to run your own country, tbh. i've never actually heard someone say "Scotland for the Scots, Catalonia for the Catalonians" outside of your thread title.

the reason there is any worry about cultural preservation is because, yes, the spanish government in living memory did openly try to destroy every non-spanish language and culture in the country. so if people are worried about that, they're actually pretty much 100% justified in doing so. so maybe you shouldn't look down on people trying to preserve their culture so fast? for my next post, i will explain how ukraine was actually wholly unjustified in seceding.

[Wind in the Willows]

Multiculturalism benefits us in some ways, but we should not bend over backwards for them. Although recently it has caused more problems for the Western World.

[Greater-London]

Bar a few wackos Yes Scotland isn't running on a culture and identity ticket; its more about the economy and being able to have control over your local issues. I get the impression that the Catalan movement is the same. Personally I'm of the opinion that this can be solved by a devo-max arrangement but that's neither here nor there.

[Tagmatium]

As you know, there are burgeoning succession movements in places like Scotland and Catalonia. One of the main reasons for this is they feel they need to preserve their culture. But is this good? I don't think so. I think a multicultural society benefits us all. I also think the government should stop bending over backwards for these ethnic and cultural groups. Having a culture isn't succession material.

What do you think? Is a minority culture a reason for succession/autonomy?

I'm just going to point out that there is more than one "Scottish Culture".

The obvious difference is the Highland/Lowland thing, but there are many more. The North-East of Scotland has the Doric language, as an example. The Orkney and Shetland islands are different as well. The Borders have a different culture as well.

As for "preserving culture", current Scottish Government policy does nothing of the sort, and effectively does the reverse, imposing a culture on the rest of the population.

Gaelic language schools as an example - there was a Gaelic language school opened fairly recently in Ayrshire, where Robert Burns the poet lived. Robert Burns who wrote such a volume and quality of poetry in the Scots language, not Gaelic.
The Northern Ireland administration spends more on Scots language culture, than the Scottish Government does.
The Scottish Governments endorsement of such things as "Tartan Week" in New York, is another example.

Tartan, kilts, Gaelic and whisky are things from Highlander culture, which is not the culture of the majority of the Scottish peoples.

Sometimes, some people in Scotland dont seem to realise the "No True Scotsman" thing is a fallacy.

Probably because it's the most recognisable Scottish culture, and therefore easier to flog abroad.

For example, I want a GTO with a trunk full of cocaine, in fact you could say that a super majority of me wants it. Does that mean its a good idea?

Yes, it does.

[Mollary]

And both very shitty places to live generally.

Multicultural states are authoritarian, corrupt, and wracked by ethnic divisions?

What? No way!

What about Belgium then? And Switzerland?

[Murkwood]

So many contradictions. You believe in a multicultural world, yet you don't recognize the right to preserve such cultures. When a culture is absorbed by a bigger entity, that's not multiculturalism, it's cultural imperialism. And it will eventually be heading toward a monocultural world.

Is multiculturalism really worth splitting up countries over?

It depends, but for most cases, no.

[Benuty]

Generally no, though if the majority of the populace want independence then they ought to have it.

Why not?

I mean will of the people is one thing, will of one ethnicity over the other is entirely different.

[Alyakia]

Multicultural states are authoritarian, corrupt, and wracked by ethnic divisions?

What? No way!

What about Belgium then? And Switzerland?

belgium, lol.

how is switzerland multicultural, exactly?

[Benuty]

What about Belgium then? And Switzerland?

belgium, lol.

how is switzerland multicultural, exactly?

Well you know Germans, French, and the Romansch aren't similar that much.

[Geilinor]

What about Belgium then? And Switzerland?

how is switzerland multicultural, exactly?

Switzerland is more multicultural than Belgium, with German, French, Romansh, and Italian.

[Libertarian California]

how is switzerland multicultural, exactly?

Switzerland is more multicultural than Belgium, with German, French, Romansh, and Italian.

Multilingualism is not inherently multiculturalism.

The linguistic groups of Switzerland are still all Swiss.

[Estado Paulista]

And both very shitty places to live generally.

Multicultural states are authoritarian, corrupt, and wracked by ethnic divisions?

What? No way!

Switzerland, Belgium and Canada aren't authoritarian and corrupt. But I'll give you that ethnic tensions have existed, and to some extent, still exist in these countries, except for Switzerland.

[Santa Lucania]

Generally no I don't support Succession movements, I feel Scotland does not gain or loss much wether it splits or not and from what I've read people supporting Succession are a minority. But from what I can see Catalonia really wants it's independence as seen by the multitude of political parties working the Catalonian Parliament supporting Catalonian independence so for what I can tell they do wish to become independent. Also I feel that Carolina has enough infrastructure to stand up on its own feet if it gains independence the only issue comes with how it will integrate with Europe since Spain will most definitely block any Catalonian attempt at European integration if it is to gain its independence which may hamper its future economy if they were to gain independence.

[The Autonomous Collective]

For both Scottish and Catalan autonomy.

Just because a region is autonomous doesn't necessarily mean that some invisible wall goes up and some kind of cultural founder effect will take place.

If one acknowledges Scotland's vibrant intellectual history. Or Catalonia's revolutionary history and how quickly workers' self managed production got underway, during a revolution. Both Scotland and Catalonia seems that they would thrive. I used the term 'seem' because I'm not there. Then again I support autonomy in general.