NationStates

(Obviously the name can be changed, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.)
Should NATO be expanded in scope to no longer merely cover North America and Europe, but also to expand westwards (to potentially include Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, etc and eventually if it's feasible, India and such.) And Southwards to potentially include South American democracies?

(Essentially, an alliance of the Westerners.)
With the slight decline in US and European power following the cold war, and the seeming rise in Russia and Chinese power, i'm of the opinion that the hegenomic influence of the alliance must be expanded further to properly cover all western friendly nations.

We must face facts. The UN, while having done an admirable job in world health and such, is not the human rights guarantor that it was established to be. NATO as it currently stands is too weak to continue under that mantle.

The expansion of NATO would also help with global stability and security, as well as make our global power projection greater.

I'm also of the opinion that NATO should put more focus into standardization of equipment so as to make it's units, equipment, and armies interchangable.

Such an action at this time would also send a very clear message to the Russians about what their Crimean shenanigans won them. A vastly expanded NATO (Precisely the thing they were worried about in the first place, thus turning this into a strategic failure and defeat for the Russians if we explicitly said this was why we are forming super-nato.)

This deals with the purely military aspects of a super-NATO, even if personally i'd also throw on top of that trade agreements so as to bind our economies together.
What do you think NSG?

I think at that point a world federation is needed.

NATO should certainly be expanded to protect other nations. However, I don't want this to turn into another NATO-Warsaw Pact thing if we're going up against China and Russia.

Dejanic wrote:I think at that point a world federation is needed.

No.

Viritica wrote:

Dejanic wrote:I think at that point a world federation is needed.

No.

It's going to happen eventually. We already have states forming into super-blocks/states, only a matter of time until these trade blocks then combine. Maybe it won't happen in my life time, but it will happen.

Dejanic wrote:

Viritica wrote:No.

It's going to happen eventually.

What makes you think that? Half of the nations in this world can't even get along (e.g. China and Taiwan, North and South Korea, Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Palestine, India and Pakistan, etc.)

Viritica wrote:NATO should certainly be expanded to protect other nations. However, I don't want this to turn into another NATO-Warsaw Pact thing if we're going up against China and Russia.

If China liberalizes slightly, I'd put them as demi-westernized.

If they democratize as well, i'd happily have them in a super-nato.

The reason I'm thinking about it now, is that we need to make it clear to the Russians and the rest of the world that the Western Hegenomy is not over yet. We must continue to project power so as to prevent chaos. If it becomes apparent to the tinpot tyrants of the world that we can no longer police it, there will be anarchy, human rights abuses, genocides, more so than usual even.

Russia will invade more places maybe, if they can get away with it.

Doing this now would make Russia think twice about that in the future. We need a show of determination and strength, and this is one that doesn't actually require us to do much.
Doing this allows both power blocs to save face.

We'll have defeated the Russians primary objective. (To prevent the expansion of NATO.)
And they'll have achieved their STATED primary objective. (To annex crimea.)

Viritica wrote:

Dejanic wrote:It's going to happen eventually.

What makes you think that? Half of the nations in this world can't even get along (e.g. China and Taiwan, North and South Korea, Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Palestine, India and Pakistan, etc.)

Yeah they don't get along now. But we've more world unity now than we did 20 years ago. It won't happen anytime soon, but it will happen eventually. These continental/trade blocs are just the beginning. As technology increases and we get closer to a type 1 civilisation, world unity will have to happen.

The question isn't if world unity will happen. The question is when, and under what political form.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Viritica wrote:NATO should certainly be expanded to protect other nations. However, I don't want this to turn into another NATO-Warsaw Pact thing if we're going up against China and Russia.

If China liberalizes slightly, I'd put them as demi-westernized.

If they democratize as well, i'd happily have them in a super-nato.

The reason I'm thinking about it now, is that we need to make it clear to the Russians and the rest of the world that the Western Hegenomy is not over yet. We must continue to project power so as to prevent chaos. If it becomes apparent to the tinpot tyrants of the world that we can no longer police it, there will be anarchy, human rights abuses, genocides, more so than usual even.

Russia will invade more places maybe, if they can get away with it.

Doing this now would make Russia think twice about that in the future. We need a show of determination and strength, and this is one that doesn't actually require us to do much.

I'm not entirely sure China will be quick to even become demi-westernized. Not with their aggressive attitude toward Taiwan and Tibet.

Russia... Russia is more of a problem. Putin's a dictator and to me it almost seems like he's somehow trying to rebuild the old USSR. He's invaded a lot of former Soviet territories (e.g. Chechen which was somewhat justifiable, Georgia, and now Ukraine).

It already sort of does.

I mean Turkey isn't really anywhere near the North Atlantic, now is it?

Dejanic wrote:

Viritica wrote:What makes you think that? Half of the nations in this world can't even get along (e.g. China and Taiwan, North and South Korea, Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Palestine, India and Pakistan, etc.)

Yeah they don't get along now. But we've more world unity now than we did 20 years ago. It won't happen anytime soon, but it will happen eventually. These continental/trade blocs are just the beginning. As technology increases and we get closer to a type 1 civilisation, world unity will have to happen.

The question isn't if world unity will happen. The question is when, and under what political form.

You really expect billions of people from all different cultures, religions, languages, and ethnicities to suddenly unify? Even in the far future?

Viritica wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:
If China liberalizes slightly, I'd put them as demi-westernized.

If they democratize as well, i'd happily have them in a super-nato.

The reason I'm thinking about it now, is that we need to make it clear to the Russians and the rest of the world that the Western Hegenomy is not over yet. We must continue to project power so as to prevent chaos. If it becomes apparent to the tinpot tyrants of the world that we can no longer police it, there will be anarchy, human rights abuses, genocides, more so than usual even.

Russia will invade more places maybe, if they can get away with it.

Doing this now would make Russia think twice about that in the future. We need a show of determination and strength, and this is one that doesn't actually require us to do much.

I'm not entirely sure China will be quick to even become demi-westernized. Not with their aggressive attitude toward Taiwan and Tibet.

Russia... Russia is more of a problem. Putin's a dictator and to me it almost seems like he's somehow trying to rebuild the old USSR. He's invaded a lot of former Soviet territories (e.g. Chechen which was somewhat justifiable, Georgia, and now Ukraine).

Tibet is rightfully theirs probably. The majority of the inhabitants identify as Chinese. It's only 1/3rd who identify as Tibetan.
Greece and Turkey get on just fine, in the grand scheme of things, despite the Cyprus issue.
China see's the big picture. They understand that world diplomacy and economics is where true power lies. Unlike the Russians, who seem to be under the impression this is the age of cannon and cavalry. The Chinese would not rock the boat over Taiwan.

I support this. Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Japan, possibly India and some more should be able to, they would help a lot.

Absolutely. Bringing in Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand, The Republic of China, Ukraine and Singapore.

Sun Wukong wrote:It already sort of does.

I mean Turkey isn't really anywhere near the North Atlantic, now is it?

Precisely my point. We've already abandoned that pretense, so why not abandon it completely and expand westward?

Viritica wrote:

Dejanic wrote:Yeah they don't get along now. But we've more world unity now than we did 20 years ago. It won't happen anytime soon, but it will happen eventually. These continental/trade blocs are just the beginning. As technology increases and we get closer to a type 1 civilisation, world unity will have to happen.

The question isn't if world unity will happen. The question is when, and under what political form.

You really expect billions of people from all different cultures, religions, languages, and ethnicities to suddenly unify? Even in the far future?

I never said they'd suddenly unify. I said that the world will progress towards that stage slowly, and it will probably happen long after I and you died.

Most countries are progressing towards continental unification, its only a matter until world unification follows.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Viritica wrote:I'm not entirely sure China will be quick to even become demi-westernized. Not with their aggressive attitude toward Taiwan and Tibet.

Russia... Russia is more of a problem. Putin's a dictator and to me it almost seems like he's somehow trying to rebuild the old USSR. He's invaded a lot of former Soviet territories (e.g. Chechen which was somewhat justifiable, Georgia, and now Ukraine).

Tibet is rightfully theirs probably. The majority of the inhabitants identify as Chinese. It's only 1/3rd who identify as Tibetan.
Greece and Turkey get on just fine, in the grand scheme of things, despite the Cyprus issue.
China see's the big picture. They understand that world diplomacy and economics is where true power lies. Unlike the Russians, who seem to be under the impression this is the age of cannon and cavalry. The Chinese would not rock the boat over Taiwan.

Tibetans make up of 92% of TAR.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Viritica wrote:I'm not entirely sure China will be quick to even become demi-westernized. Not with their aggressive attitude toward Taiwan and Tibet.

Russia... Russia is more of a problem. Putin's a dictator and to me it almost seems like he's somehow trying to rebuild the old USSR. He's invaded a lot of former Soviet territories (e.g. Chechen which was somewhat justifiable, Georgia, and now Ukraine).

Tibet is rightfully theirs probably. The majority of the inhabitants identify as Chinese. It's only 1/3rd who identify as Tibetan.
Greece and Turkey get on just fine, in the grand scheme of things, despite the Cyprus issue.
China see's the big picture. They understand that world diplomacy and economics is where true power lies. Unlike the Russians, who seem to be under the impression this is the age of cannon and cavalry. The Chinese would not rock the boat over Taiwan.

China still has issues with Taiwan. It all boils down to the Chinese Civil War. The government of the former Republic of China fled to Taiwan and set up shop there. The PRC isn't very happy about that, even today.

Dejanic wrote:

Viritica wrote:You really expect billions of people from all different cultures, religions, languages, and ethnicities to suddenly unify? Even in the far future?

I never said they'd suddenly unify. I said that the world will progress towards that stage slowly, and it will probably happen long after I and you died.

Most countries are progressing towards continental unification, its only a matter until world unification follows.

How do you see this happening?

Viritica wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Tibet is rightfully theirs probably. The majority of the inhabitants identify as Chinese. It's only 1/3rd who identify as Tibetan.
Greece and Turkey get on just fine, in the grand scheme of things, despite the Cyprus issue.
China see's the big picture. They understand that world diplomacy and economics is where true power lies. Unlike the Russians, who seem to be under the impression this is the age of cannon and cavalry. The Chinese would not rock the boat over Taiwan.

China still has issues with Taiwan. It all boils down to the Chinese Civil War. The government of the former Republic of China fled to Taiwan and set up shop there. The PRC isn't very happy about that, even today.

Which is why we need to bring them into the fold. Not the former Republic of China, the Republic of China.

I'm for. Anyone any ideas for a new name? Because North Atlantic Treaty Organization wouldn't fit if there are members in the South Atlantic and the Pacific.

European Socialist Republic wrote:I'm for. Anyone any ideas for a new name? Because North Atlantic Treaty Organization wouldn't fit if there are members in the South Atlantic and the Pacific.

Obviously they change their name from NATO to EF by then.

European Socialist Republic wrote:I'm for. Anyone any ideas for a new name? Because North Atlantic Treaty Organization wouldn't fit if there are members in the South Atlantic and the Pacific.

Ooh, ooh! "The Wolverines." That's a good name. The fighting Wolverines.

Honestly though, it doesn't really need to be changed. Treaties often have place names associated with them. It's not usually a problem.

Blazedtown wrote:

Viritica wrote:China still has issues with Taiwan. It all boils down to the Chinese Civil War. The government of the former Republic of China fled to Taiwan and set up shop there. The PRC isn't very happy about that, even today.

Which is why we need to bring them into the fold. Not the former Republic of China, the Republic of China.

When you say the Republic of China are you referring to Taiwan?

Viritica wrote:

Blazedtown wrote:
Which is why we need to bring them into the fold. Not the former Republic of China, the Republic of China.

When you say the Republic of China are you referring to Taiwan?

No, I'm talking about the legitimate government of China that has been exiled to the island of Formosa by communists.