Super-NATO

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Stop lying.

Hey, I actually prefer to be their ally than to be Russia's and China's as well.

I just don't think we'd ever enter NATO. Or that we should. Or that it'd be positive for us.

[Estado Paulista]

Hey, I actually prefer to be their ally than to be Russia's and China's as well.

Brazil is not China and Russia's ally. These aren't the only options on the table.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Brazil is not China and Russia's ally.

More like little buddy from another less relevant, remote continent, yes.

These aren't the only options on the table.

I've never implied so.

In fact, I prefer Europe as superpower over USA.

[Wolfmanne]

their public television service, a railway bridge

You're funny. Do you do comedy? Because this little bit of words is like, some of the best comedy I've ever seen.

Do you even know what a military target is? Or do you just automatically see "US troops" and scream "OMG THEY ARE LITERALLY HITLER"

Civilians die in war. Holy shit this is fucking news to me.

Never before in the entire history of warfare had any civilian ever been killed! Never before! Then the fucking US and NATO come along and start killing every single baby and civilian they can!

Thank you for clearing my eyes to the real fact that the US and NATO and evil people and are all literally Hitler and Stalin all wrapped up together.

their public television service a railway bridge

These are valid targets, in no way did NATO "Fuck up" here.

San-Silvacian clearly has no understanding of international law and its application in war-zones.

Targeting journalists is not warfare, and all major international journalists' organisations condemned the bombing. Journalists are meant to be protected from attacks from belligerents in either side of the conflict. And yes, it's fine to bomb a railway bridge.... if a train isn't going over it . They seriously couldn't wait until the train went by? I don't buy that. As someone who, for the most part, supports NATO operations, including those in Iraq and Afghanistan, the bombing campaign was indeed a massive fuck-up, and NATO justifies it by calling it 'collateral damage'. Intervention is Kosovo was indeed necessary, but we did not need to bomb sovereign Yugoslav territory.

[United Marxist Nations]

I don't think it's a good idea to shift the balance of power so far into one direction.

Spheres of influence are not a right, they are something to be earned through power. That said, NATO is already much more powerful then Russia in terms of force, to think otherwise is a delusion fueled by Soviet glory.

Why are you telling me things that I know? What I'm saying is that a power with total hegemony isn't good.

[San-Silvacian]

You're funny. Do you do comedy? Because this little bit of words is like, some of the best comedy I've ever seen.

Do you even know what a military target is? Or do you just automatically see "US troops" and scream "OMG THEY ARE LITERALLY HITLER"

Civilians die in war. Holy shit this is fucking news to me.

Never before in the entire history of warfare had any civilian ever been killed! Never before! Then the fucking US and NATO come along and start killing every single baby and civilian they can!

Thank you for clearing my eyes to the real fact that the US and NATO and evil people and are all literally Hitler and Stalin all wrapped up together.

These are valid targets, in no way did NATO "Fuck up" here.

San-Silvacian clearly has no understanding of international law and its application in war-zones.

Targeting journalists is not warfare, and all major international journalists' organisations condemned the bombing. Journalists are meant to be protected from attacks from belligerents in either side of the conflict. And yes, it's fine to bomb a railway bridge.... if a train isn't going over it . They seriously couldn't wait until the train went by? I don't buy that. As someone who, for the most part, supports NATO operations, including those in Iraq and Afghanistan, the bombing campaign was indeed a massive fuck-up, and NATO justifies it by calling it 'collateral damage'. Intervention is Kosovo was indeed necessary, but we did not need to bomb sovereign Yugoslav territory.

Really, the question here is:

Do you know what a conflict is? Because you seem pretty in the 'No I don't' area.

[Shnercropolis]

Spheres of influence are not a right, they are something to be earned through power. That said, NATO is already much more powerful then Russia in terms of force, to think otherwise is a delusion fueled by Soviet glory.

Why are you telling me things that I know? What I'm saying is that a power with total hegemony isn't good.

^this to infinity.

[Regnum Dominae]

NATO should be dismantled.

South Korea and Japan are not "Western" nations.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Collective security is of utmost importance.

Because I have no idea what you're asking.

Why not have China in such an alliance?

China has no interest in human rights or democracy. That's why.

[Shnercropolis]

NATO should be dismantled.

South Korea and Japan are not "Western" nations.

Funny, South Korea and Japan have been intentionally imitating western culture for decades(in the case of Japan, centuries).

[Regnum Dominae]

NATO is the military arm of an evil empire and should be destroyed.

What "evil empire"?

[Arumdaum]

Why not have China in such an alliance?

China has no interest in human rights or democracy. That's why.

And the DRC and Sudan do?

[Shnercropolis]

NATO is the military arm of an evil empire and should be destroyed.

What "evil empire"?

The Napoleonic Empire, of course.

[Regnum Dominae]

China has no interest in human rights or democracy. That's why.

And the DRC and Sudan do?

I don't support having the African Union in NATO. Please don't put words in my mouth.

[Immoren]

NATO is the military arm of an evil empire and should be destroyed.

What "evil empire"?

Saurian Empire.

[Arumdaum]

And the DRC and Sudan do?

I don't support having the African Union in NATO. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I was not suspecting that you did - rather that you didn't bother to understand the context in which I made that post.

[Sun Wukong]

NATO is the military arm of an evil empire and should be destroyed.

What "evil empire"?

McDonald's.

[Shnercropolis]

What "evil empire"?

McDonald's.

That literally made me laugh out loud.

[Arumdaum]

NATO should be dismantled.

South Korea and Japan are not "Western" nations.

Funny, South Korea and Japan have been intentionally imitating western culture for decades(in the case of Japan, centuries).

South Korea and Japan are not monolithic entities, nor are Korean and Japanese culture cultures which remain passive to Western cultural influence. A nation cannot "intentionally imitate" Western culture.

Your comment on Japan shows your ignorance of its history. Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate or during the Azuchi-Momoyama period did not want to imitate Western culture, nor did they do so. Rather, Western influence, especially in the form of Christianity, was seen as a threat to Japan's stability and rule of law. It was thus stamped out.

The Japanese did not want to imitate the Dutch either. While the Japanese, during sakoku, were able to take notice of numerous outside developments, they saw the Dutch at Dejima as a joke, and treated them as such.

The only notable things adopted from the Europeans back then were guns (which Europeans got in turn from the Middle East, which in turn got it from China), a few loanwords (but look at words like "tsunami" and "cannibal" in English), and fried food.

Imitation of Western nations by the Japanese government and intellectuals (which does not make Japan a Western nation) did not begin until the latter half of the 19th century. Even still, Japan is still considerably more Japanese than it is Western (same with SK being more Korean than Western).

Western culture seeping into those of others do not make those other cultures Western, in the same way that Chinese influence has not made Vietnam, Korea, or Japan Chinese, as well as how Indian cultural influence has not made Thailand or Cambodia Indian.

The adoption of economic techniques which arose out of the West does not make South Korea and Japan Western, as much as the adoption of agriculture has not made Europe a cultural offshoot of the Middle East. The popularity of Christianity in Korea due to its association with wealth, the West, and the Korean independence movement, makes Korea as Western as Christianity or Islam has made Europe, Central Asia, and Indonesia Middle Eastern.

As global tastes change in a continuously mixing and more interconnected world, it's becoming increasingly difficult to say that something is "Western."

[San-Silvacian]

NATO is the military arm of an evil empire and should be destroyed.

What "evil empire"?

Xerxes and those pesky Persians!

[Marcurix]

The only notable things adopted from the Europeans back then were guns (which Europeans got in turn from the Middle East, which in turn got it from China), a few loanwords (but look at words like "tsunami" and "cannibal" in English), and fried food.

ooooh and medicine, astronomy, navigation, natural sciences...

the practical stuff.

[Shnercropolis]

Funny, South Korea and Japan have been intentionally imitating western culture for decades(in the case of Japan, centuries).

South Korea and Japan are not monolithic entities, nor are Korean and Japanese culture cultures which remain passive to Western cultural influence. A nation cannot "intentionally imitate" Western culture.

Your comment on Japan shows your ignorance of its history. Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate or during the Azuchi-Momoyama period did not want to imitate Western culture, nor did they do so. Rather, Western influence, especially in the form of Christianity, was seen as a threat to Japan's stability and rule of law. It was thus stamped out.

The Japanese did not want to imitate the Dutch either. While the Japanese, during sakoku, were able to take notice of numerous outside developments, they saw the Dutch at Dejima as a joke, and treated them as such.

The only notable things adopted from the Europeans back then were guns (which Europeans got in turn from the Middle East, which in turn got it from China), a few loanwords (but look at words like "tsunami" and "cannibal" in English), and fried food.

Imitation of Western nations by the Japanese government and intellectuals (which does not make Japan a Western nation) did not begin until the latter half of the 19th century. Even still, Japan is still considerably more Japanese than it is Western (same with SK being more Korean than Western).

Western culture seeping into those of others do not make those other cultures Western, in the same way that Chinese influence has not made Vietnam, Korea, or Japan Chinese, as well as how Indian cultural influence has not made Thailand or Cambodia Indian.

The adoption of economic techniques which arose out of the West does not make South Korea and Japan Western, as much as the adoption of agriculture has not made Europe a cultural offshoot of the Middle East. The popularity of Christianity in Korea due to its association with wealth, the West, and the Korean independence movement, makes Korea as Western as Christianity or Islam has made Europe, Central Asia, and Indonesia Middle Eastern.

As global tastes change in a continuously mixing and more interconnected world, it's becoming increasingly difficult to say that something is "Western."

Ahh! I knew I'd step on someone's foot saying that. Funny how they aren't western, except their music and art and economy and education and government are very, very similar to those of places firmly established to be the "west" (Europe, US)

[Marcurix]

South Korea and Japan are not monolithic entities, nor are Korean and Japanese culture cultures which remain passive to Western cultural influence. A nation cannot "intentionally imitate" Western culture.

Your comment on Japan shows your ignorance of its history. Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate or during the Azuchi-Momoyama period did not want to imitate Western culture, nor did they do so. Rather, Western influence, especially in the form of Christianity, was seen as a threat to Japan's stability and rule of law. It was thus stamped out.

The Japanese did not want to imitate the Dutch either. While the Japanese, during sakoku, were able to take notice of numerous outside developments, they saw the Dutch at Dejima as a joke, and treated them as such.

The only notable things adopted from the Europeans back then were guns (which Europeans got in turn from the Middle East, which in turn got it from China), a few loanwords (but look at words like "tsunami" and "cannibal" in English), and fried food.

Imitation of Western nations by the Japanese government and intellectuals (which does not make Japan a Western nation) did not begin until the latter half of the 19th century. Even still, Japan is still considerably more Japanese than it is Western (same with SK being more Korean than Western).

Western culture seeping into those of others do not make those other cultures Western, in the same way that Chinese influence has not made Vietnam, Korea, or Japan Chinese, as well as how Indian cultural influence has not made Thailand or Cambodia Indian.

The adoption of economic techniques which arose out of the West does not make South Korea and Japan Western, as much as the adoption of agriculture has not made Europe a cultural offshoot of the Middle East. The popularity of Christianity in Korea due to its association with wealth, the West, and the Korean independence movement, makes Korea as Western as Christianity or Islam has made Europe, Central Asia, and Indonesia Middle Eastern.

As global tastes change in a continuously mixing and more interconnected world, it's becoming increasingly difficult to say that something is "Western."

Ahh! I knew I'd step on someone's foot saying that. Funny how they aren't western, except their music and art and economy and education and government are very, very similar to those of places firmly established to be the "west" (Europe, US)

The point that Arumdaum was trying to make was that despite influences from the West (which is a very loose and negotiable term) S.Korea and Japan are not Western in the sense that they are not American or European in how they do things. They are Korean, they are Japanese. They have a different outlook, different goals, different ways of thinking and different interests that make it difficult to put them as westernized in the common sense, whatever that might be.

[Great Empire of Gamilus]

NATO should certainly be expanded to protect other nations. However, I don't want this to turn into another NATO-Warsaw Pact thing if we're going up against China and Russia.

If China liberalizes slightly, I'd put them as demi-westernized.

If they democratize as well, i'd happily have them in a super-nato.

The reason I'm thinking about it now, is that we need to make it clear to the Russians and the rest of the world that the Western Hegenomy is not over yet. We must continue to project power so as to prevent chaos. If it becomes apparent to the tinpot tyrants of the world that we can no longer police it, there will be anarchy, human rights abuses, genocides, more so than usual even.

Russia will invade more places maybe, if they can get away with it.

Doing this now would make Russia think twice about that in the future. We need a show of determination and strength, and this is one that doesn't actually require us to do much.
Doing this allows both power blocs to save face.

We'll have defeated the Russians primary objective. (To prevent the expansion of NATO.)
And they'll have achieved their STATED primary objective. (To annex crimea.)

well its the EU's fault that Russia intervened in Crimea since the EU is trying to grab as much as they can.
Russia just wants to be left on its own when it comes to its corner of the world, they don't want a superpower invading their corner which the EU is doing exactly with their constant expansion.

its not Russia that needs to think twice, but the west, that needs to think.

[Oaledonia]

They have a different outlook, different goals

They just happen to be the same as the West.

[Regnum Dominae]

If China liberalizes slightly, I'd put them as demi-westernized.

If they democratize as well, i'd happily have them in a super-nato.

The reason I'm thinking about it now, is that we need to make it clear to the Russians and the rest of the world that the Western Hegenomy is not over yet. We must continue to project power so as to prevent chaos. If it becomes apparent to the tinpot tyrants of the world that we can no longer police it, there will be anarchy, human rights abuses, genocides, more so than usual even.

Russia will invade more places maybe, if they can get away with it.

Doing this now would make Russia think twice about that in the future. We need a show of determination and strength, and this is one that doesn't actually require us to do much.
Doing this allows both power blocs to save face.

We'll have defeated the Russians primary objective. (To prevent the expansion of NATO.)
And they'll have achieved their STATED primary objective. (To annex crimea.)

well its the EU's fault that Russia intervened in Crimea since the EU is trying to grab as much as they can.
Russia just wants to be left on its own when it comes to its corner of the world, they don't want a superpower invading their corner which the EU is doing exactly with their constant expansion.

its not Russia that needs to think twice, but the west, that needs to think.

Russia is attempting to fulfill its expansionist desires and it's the WEST that needs to think twice?