Ukrainian Crisis

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Ukraine has rejected joining the European Union Trade Pact at the last minute.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/21/ukraine-shocks-west-with-eu-decision/?hpt=hp_t3

I believe this to be a fantastic development. For too long has the EU been expanding it's liberalist tentacles across the European Continent. And despite their clear incompetence in handling the Eurozone crisis. Naive governments like Croatia and Serbia continue to push for EU membership (with the former having already been accepted).

The EU's attempt to woo over the FSU states like Ukraine was a blatant attempt at interference in Putin's sphere of influence. The last thing any of us should want to see is a Bureaucratic mess like the European Union weakening the power of our mightiest statesman, Vladimir Putin, or his great nation. Also Ukraine is better off without Brussels making unfair demands on it's internal affairs.


http://rt.com/op-edge/eu-ukraine-russia-deal-130/


Addition (Feb 18 2014)

The Situation has escalated. The U-turn by Yanukovych away from the EU caused protests, which have increasingly become violent. Ukraine has become steadily more polarized and riots have gripped the capital and taken lives. Some commentators have even brought up the possibility of partition or civil war.

What is your take on this?

Addition (Feb 28 2014)

Yanukovych has been overthrown, only to resurface in Russia and saying he is still the rightful president.
The country is broke, illegitimate in the eyes of Moscow. Russia is sending in troops to the secessionist pro-Russia province of Crimea. Russia has now officially sanctioned military force through it's parliament. Ukraine and Russia have both mobilized and it remains to be seen what shall come now.

Addition (March 18 2014)

Crimea has declared independence, and the rest of Ukraine is reeling with separatist violence. The Kiev government struggles to regain control and is establishing a national guard of 60,000 people. Russian forces are meanwhile massed on the border. Putin recognizes Crimea's secession and it is speculated formal annexation could begin soon. Also West has slapped Russia with sanctions.

(Disclaimer: This isn't an RP.)

[Jetan]

A damn shame, this.

[L Ron Cupboard]

A corrupt kleptocracy like the Ukraine certainly does have more in common with Putin's Russia than with the EU.

[Risottia]

The EU's attempt to woo over the FSU states like Ukraine was a blatant attempt at interference in Putin's sphere of influence.

Because Putin has a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.
Or because Russia as a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.

Here's now a typical train of thought from Eurosceptics.

Stay tuned for more fun stories, I guess.

[The balkens]

The EU's attempt to woo over the FSU states like Ukraine was a blatant attempt at interference in Putin's sphere of influence.

Because Putin has a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.
Or because Russia as a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.

Here's now a typical train of thought from Eurosceptics.

Stay tuned for more fun stories, I guess.

All of this.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

A damn shame, this.

I'm not opposed to nations uniting under a regional framework, either politically or economically, however the framework must be inherently strong willed. The EU attempts to foster democracy and liberalism, thus it is a supranational organization which is a threat to a strong government of the type needed to see humanity through the 21st century.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

The EU's attempt to woo over the FSU states like Ukraine was a blatant attempt at interference in Putin's sphere of influence.

Because Putin has a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.
Or because Russia as a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.

Here's now a typical train of thought from Eurosceptics.

Stay tuned for more fun stories, I guess.

Why is Russia not allowed to have a sphere of influence, but Brussels is?
The EU should be happy with what they have and stop the expansionist attitude towards Moscow.

[Tubbsalot]

There's nothing which inspires confidence in the credibility and even-handedness of a poster more than the phrase "liberalist tentacles."

[Jetan]

A damn shame, this.

I'm not opposed to nations uniting under a regional framework, either politically or economically, however the framework must be inherently strong willed. The EU attempts to foster democracy and liberalism, thus it is a supranational organization which is a threat to a strong government of the type needed to see humanity through the 21st century.

Parliamentary democracy is one of the most important achievements of the Modern era. It has it's problems, but it's vastly preferable to a dictatorship. Europe should uníte into one nation.

[New Molsona]

It's the same issue with New York, we have a bunch of New York City and Albany liberals making decisions for the whole state (which without NYC, is mostly conservative). If Ukraine joins this, all their decisions will come from Brussels which has no idea what the people of Ukraine want.

[Jetan]

The EU should be happy with what they have and stop the expansionist attitude towards Moscow.

Aaaand there goes your credibility.

[Tubbsalot]

If Ukraine joins this, all their decisions will come from Brussels which has no idea what the people of Ukraine want.

I'm not sure whether you realise this, but national governments still exist after a country joins the EU. It's not like the continent is being run from Brussels.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

I'm not opposed to nations uniting under a regional framework, either politically or economically, however the framework must be inherently strong willed. The EU attempts to foster democracy and liberalism, thus it is a supranational organization which is a threat to a strong government of the type needed to see humanity through the 21st century.

Parliamentary democracy is one of the most important achievements of the Modern era. It has it's problems, but it's vastly preferable to a dictatorship. Europe should uníte into one nation.

Absolutely not. The "democracy" of the EU offers nothing but kleptocracy and political sloth.
See this article ( I posted it into OP, but maybe you missed it), it makes a very strong point for staying out of the EU.
http://rt.com/op-edge/eu-ukraine-russia-deal-130/

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

If Ukraine joins this, all their decisions will come from Brussels which has no idea what the people of Ukraine want.

I'm not sure whether you realise this, but national governments still exist after a country joins the EU. It's not like the continent is being run from Brussels.

Yeah, the idea that sovereignty is retained after joining the EU is BS, just look at Greece or Hungary. Brussels is always snooping in their affairs.

[Jetan]

Parliamentary democracy is one of the most important achievements of the Modern era. It has it's problems, but it's vastly preferable to a dictatorship. Europe should uníte into one nation.

Absolutely not. The "democracy" of the EU offers nothing but kleptocracy and political sloth.
See this article ( I posted it into OP, but maybe you missed it), it makes a very strong point for staying out of the EU.
http://rt.com/op-edge/eu-ukraine-russia-deal-130/

You expect me to take RT seriously?

[The balkens]

If Ukraine joins this, all their decisions will come from Brussels which has no idea what the people of Ukraine want.

I'm not sure whether you realise this, but national governments still exist after a country joins the EU. It's not like the continent is being run from Brussels.

That's what the Belgian Imperialists want you to believe! Apparently...or something.

Wait, doesn't Germany have a tight hold of the EU since it's the largest economy. And even if Europe centralized even further (like say a super state) would it's participating states still have their own governments? Like the American united states as a model?

[Divair]

What a shame. I feel really sorry for the Ukrainians. I've been to the country about a dozen times, and it's in a really bad state. This could've helped the country a lot.

[Tubbsalot]

Yeah, the idea that sovereignty is retained after joining the EU is BS, just look at Greece or Hungary. Brussels is always snooping in their affairs.

Except they can withdraw from EU organisations at any time; the EU has no binding authority over them and can't enforce decisions without the consent of national authorities. They'd be screwed by leaving the EU, but only because they'd be losing the advantages of EU membership.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

I'm not sure whether you realise this, but national governments still exist after a country joins the EU. It's not like the continent is being run from Brussels.

That's what the Belgian Imperialists want you to believe! Apparently...or something.

Wait, doesn't Germany have a tight hold of the EU since it's the largest economy. And even if Europe centralized even further (like say a super state) would it's participating states still have their own governments? Like the American united states as a model?

Europe is a nation of dozens of ethnic groups and radically different cultures. The USA has been a single state for hundreds of years while Europe has never been united under one flag. The closest person to doing so was Hitler and we all know how that ended.

[Jetan]

That's what the Belgian Imperialists want you to believe! Apparently...or something.

Wait, doesn't Germany have a tight hold of the EU since it's the largest economy. And even if Europe centralized even further (like say a super state) would it's participating states still have their own governments? Like the American united states as a model?

Europe is a nation of dozens of ethnic groups and radically different cultures. The USA has been a single state for hundreds of years while Europe has never been united under one flag. The closest person to doing so was Hitler and we all know how that ended.

Most European nations have more than one homegrown ethnicity already, and most of them are doing perfectly fine.

[The balkens]

That's what the Belgian Imperialists want you to believe! Apparently...or something.

Wait, doesn't Germany have a tight hold of the EU since it's the largest economy. And even if Europe centralized even further (like say a super state) would it's participating states still have their own governments? Like the American united states as a model?

Europe is a nation of dozens of ethnic groups and radically different cultures. The USA has been a single state for hundreds of years while Europe has never been united under one flag. The closest person to doing so was Hitler and we all know how that ended.

The United Nations Being formed and the end of the Second world war.

Pretty basic history lesson.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Yeah, the idea that sovereignty is retained after joining the EU is BS, just look at Greece or Hungary. Brussels is always snooping in their affairs.

Except they can withdraw from EU organisations at any time; the EU has no binding authority over them and can't enforce decisions without the consent of national authorities. They'd be screwed by leaving the EU, but only because they'd be losing the advantages of EU membership.

Well, once you join the EU and become integrated, it's very difficult to just leave. Greece never should have been in the EU but when they had the crisis they still remained. That should be a lesson that no matter how foolish the initial choice, it will not be possible to rectify it later on.

The EU is like a black hole. Once you enter you never leave.

[Mefpan]

Everyone will become one with Russia *nods*

But really, 'tis a shame, although I suppose I can understand that getting too involved with the EU is indeed not very good if you're in an economic position where Putin's Russia can (and as it demonstrated a few times, will) choke the flow of goods and resources your economy depends on if you're making decisions it doesn't like.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

What a shame. I feel really sorry for the Ukrainians. I've been to the country about a dozen times, and it's in a really bad state. This could've helped the country a lot.

Joining the EU will not solve the economic problems, not least because Putin will unleash retaliatory sanctions. Furthermore there are plenty of poor countries, like Romania, in the EU. It isn't some silver bullet.

[Divair]

What a shame. I feel really sorry for the Ukrainians. I've been to the country about a dozen times, and it's in a really bad state. This could've helped the country a lot.

Joining the EU will not solve the economic problems, not least because Putin will unleash retaliatory sanctions. Furthermore there are plenty of poor countries, like Romania, in the EU. It isn't some silver bullet.

You seem to think that Ukraine was offered to join the EU and declined. Do you even understand the situation?