NationStates

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:

Forster Keys wrote:Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism.

Exactly my point.

I thought I'd sum it up for you.

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:

Solaray wrote:Political correctness is alright until you start getting sued for saying "Merry Christmas". (Or similar instances)

Who gets sued for saying "Merry Christmas"?

I've heard of instances where employers will say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian employee, and proceed to be sued over it. On the flip side, I've also heard of people losing their job for saying it. Another example is making it illegal to put any form of Christmas decorations in the public streets, but that's a different matter.

Forster Keys wrote:

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Exactly my point.

I thought I'd sum it up for you.

My thanks.

Forster Keys wrote:Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism.

And I'm not saying it does. What I am saying, though, is that societies should be more tolerant - a buzz word, forgive me - of opinions that fall outside what that society considers 'clean' or 'normal'. You shouldn't be afraid to criticise a point of view, but it would be better if you'd refrain from simply ignoring it, ridiculing the person who brought it up and staying safe inside your bubble.

Solaray wrote:

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Who gets sued for saying "Merry Christmas"?

I've heard of instances where employers will say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian employee, and proceed to be sued over it. On the flip side, I've also heard of people losing their job for saying it. Another example is making it illegal to put any form of Christmas decorations in the public streets, but that's a different matter.

Heard of it?

Do you have links? Examples that I can look at? Anything that isn't the equivalent of "My nephew's best friend's drinking buddy told me..."?

Quintium wrote:

Forster Keys wrote:Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism.

And I'm not saying it does. What I am saying, though, is that societies should be more tolerant - a buzz word, forgive me - of opinions that fall outside what that society considers 'clean' or 'normal'. You shouldn't be afraid to criticise a point of view, but it would be better if you'd refrain from simply ignoring it, ridiculing the person who brought it up and staying safe inside your bubble.

Why? Doesn't free speech also include ignoring opinions one finds ridiculous, or ridiculing the person who brought it up?

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:

Solaray wrote:Political correctness is alright until you start getting sued for saying "Merry Christmas". (Or similar instances)

Who gets sued for saying "Merry Christmas"?

Probably a non-christian worker that works in a business where Merry Christmas signs are all over the workplace. I don't even mind the PC term "Happy Holidays" but "Happy Winter Solstice" is laughable.

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:

Solaray wrote:I've heard of instances where employers will say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian employee, and proceed to be sued over it. On the flip side, I've also heard of people losing their job for saying it. Another example is making it illegal to put any form of Christmas decorations in the public streets, but that's a different matter.

Heard of it?

Do you have links? Examples that I can look at? Anything that isn't the equivalent of "My nephew's best friend's drinking buddy told me..."?

I'm having trouble finding some, so it very well may have been false. But I do know that some businesses put a sort of "Happy Holidays, or else" policy in effect, to avoid controversy, but since that's their business, it's their right to do so.

Quintium wrote:

Forster Keys wrote:Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism.

And I'm not saying it does. What I am saying, though, is that societies should be more tolerant - a buzz word, forgive me - of opinions that fall outside what that society considers 'clean' or 'normal'. You shouldn't be afraid to criticise a point of view, but it would be better if you'd refrain from simply ignoring it, ridiculing the person who brought it up and staying safe inside your bubble.

many ideas are minority and unpopular for a reason and those holding them do so in the face all contravening evidence and reason. In such circumstance ignoring or ridiculing is the only way of ending a conversation that is in no way intended to be a debate. As some dead dude once said: "a fanatic is someone who won't change his mind and won't change the subject." In which case he can't blame everyone for laughing at him till he shuts up.

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:Why? Doesn't free speech also include ignoring opinions one finds ridiculous, or ridiculing the person who brought it up?

In a way. And I'm not saying we should ban any of that. However, it's toxic to public debate and it prevents ideas - some of them very useful - from being heard. When the intellectual caste an entire society scoffs at your ideas, ridicules you and uses social pressure to shut you up, it's very difficult to get an idea in even if it is pretty obviously useful. Orwell, for example, was ostracised and some of his works weren't published because he had criticised the Soviet Union under Stalin and, in a way, under Lenin. He was ridiculed, ostracised and basically refused a platform to honestly discuss his ideas because - and that's where political correctness comes in - the people he wanted to discuss those ideas with were afraid of what the Russian government would think.

It's all a form of fear, really. The perception is that the group is under threat if the individual keeps talking about his 'dangerous' ideas, so those ideas are widely denounced as stupid and a tight lid is kept on the author so that the group can distance itself from the individual.

Terra Sector Union wrote:

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Who gets sued for saying "Merry Christmas"?

Probably a non-christian worker that works in a business where Merry Christmas signs are all over the workplace. I don't even mind the PC term "Happy Holidays" but "Happy Winter Solstice" is laughable.

Happy Holidays isn't PC, it's appeasing Pastafarians.

Terra Sector Union wrote:Probably a non-christian worker that works in a business where Merry Christmas signs are all over the workplace. I don't even mind the PC term "Happy Holidays" but "Happy Winter Solstice" is laughable.

Actually, Winter Solstice is a pagan festival so it could be considered offensive to everyone but a tiny minority in some European countries.

Solaray wrote:

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Heard of it?

Do you have links? Examples that I can look at? Anything that isn't the equivalent of "My nephew's best friend's drinking buddy told me..."?

I'm having trouble finding some, so it very well may have been false. But I do know that some businesses put a sort of "Happy Holidays, or else" policy in effect, to avoid controversy, but since that's their business, it's their right to do so.

Well, I assume many stores implement such a policy to appeal to more customers.

Quintium wrote:

Forster Keys wrote:Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism.

And I'm not saying it does. What I am saying, though, is that societies should be more tolerant - a buzz word, forgive me - of opinions that fall outside what that society considers 'clean' or 'normal'. You shouldn't be afraid to criticise a point of view, but it would be better if you'd refrain from simply ignoring it, ridiculing the person who brought it up and staying safe inside your bubble.

I make it a personal policy not to ignore an idea until I've heard it. If I simply ignore or ridicule something without apparently considering it, it's because I've either heard it before and considered it or I considered it and it was ridiculous enough that I could decide faster than one might want.

Here's an example of political correctness in the wider sense of the word. A whistleblower talks to his boss about the widespread fraud he has seen in the workplace. He's told: "Don't ever mention that again, you pessimist, or you might bring down the company. All is going well, and that's that." Political correctness, I think, is not just refusing to hear certain opinions - it is, in a more general sense, a reaction out of fear. Fear, that something you've been taught is right and with which you feel comfortable turns out to be wrong. Fear, that your life might change for the worse if some things come to light. Blissful ignorance over an uncomfortable truth, basically.

Quintium wrote:Here's an example of political correctness in the wider sense of the word. A whistleblower talks to his boss about the widespread fraud he has seen in the workplace. He's told: "Don't ever mention that again, you pessimist, or you might bring down the company. All is going well, and that's that." Political correctness, I think, is not just refusing to hear certain opinions - it is, in a more general sense, a reaction out of fear. Fear, that something you've been taught is right and with which you feel comfortable turns out to be wrong. Fear, that your life might change for the worse if some things come to light. Blissful ignorance over an uncomfortable truth, basically.

Except, generally, society has a pretty low opinion of fraud and a pretty high opinion of people who uncover it.

So that's a very bad example.

Solaray wrote:Political correctness is alright until you start getting sued for saying "Merry Christmas". (Or similar instances)

Except, you know, that doesn't happen.

Quintium wrote:

Forster Keys wrote:Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism.

And I'm not saying it does. What I am saying, though, is that societies should be more tolerant - a buzz word, forgive me - of opinions that fall outside what that society considers 'clean' or 'normal'. You shouldn't be afraid to criticise a point of view, but it would be better if you'd refrain from simply ignoring it, ridiculing the person who brought it up and staying safe inside your bubble.

I endeavour not to.

Quintium wrote:Here's an example of political correctness in the wider sense of the word. A whistleblower talks to his boss about the widespread fraud he has seen in the workplace. He's told: "Don't ever mention that again, you pessimist, or you might bring down the company. All is going well, and that's that." Political correctness, I think, is not just refusing to hear certain opinions - it is, in a more general sense, a reaction out of fear. Fear, that something you've been taught is right and with which you feel comfortable turns out to be wrong. Fear, that your life might change for the worse if some things come to light. Blissful ignorance over an uncomfortable truth, basically.

That's not political correctness by any definition that I've ever heard for the term. That's the silencing of whistleblowers, and there's specific legislation out there to protect people who do that (often opposed, interestingly enough, by the same party that has the greater number of people complaining about "political correctness"). How in the world does that even begin to relate to people being called out for stating controversial opinions, whether such opinions are credible or not?

I'll answer my own question: It doesn't. You're talking about something entirely different. You're attempting to change the definition of what's being discussed to a broader topic that doesn't actually apply on any reasonable level, and it's an insult to the intelligence of every single other person taking part in this conversation.

Quintium wrote:

Terra Sector Union wrote:Probably a non-christian worker that works in a business where Merry Christmas signs are all over the workplace. I don't even mind the PC term "Happy Holidays" but "Happy Winter Solstice" is laughable.

Actually, Winter Solstice is a pagan festival so it could be considered offensive to everyone but a tiny minority in some European countries.

Actually the winter solstice is the solstice that occurs during the winter months, and a solstice is an astronomical event. Not only should that not offend anyone (any more than a full moon should offend someone), damn near every culture marks the solstice in some form or another.

Get your facts straight.

I find it hilarious how some conservatives whine about political correctness when they practice quite a bit of it, and so much of their complaints basically boil down to "WAAH WHY AM I BEING CALLED OUT FOR BEING RUDE I WANT TO BE NASTY TO PEOPLE WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES".

Terra Sector Union wrote:

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Who gets sued for saying "Merry Christmas"?

Probably a non-christian worker that works in a business where Merry Christmas signs are all over the workplace. I don't even mind the PC term "Happy Holidays" but "Happy Winter Solstice" is laughable.

I am almost certain nobody has ever advocated "Happy Winter Solstice". Just because of all the other holidays splattered all over the place. New Year's, for example, even if you claim that all the other holidays are secretly the Solstice.

"Political correctness" does not exist as we know it. What the right tends to call "political correctness" is actually properly called anti-racism, anti-sexism, anti-bigotry or anti-whatever nasty thing is being opposed. Sounds a lot better that way, doesn't it?

Quintium wrote:My signature has a very sensible point on political correctness. The subjects for political correctness may have changed since the early 1940s, but the ways in which it is generally carried out have not. It's not so much overt government censorship - which is a shame, because then people couldn't deny it - but rather a sickening, deceptive form of self-censorship by those genuinely afraid of offending someone or something they're afraid to offend.

Let's be honest with ourselves: Conservative carpring about political correctness is largely an effort to avoid getting called out for being racist, sexist, or homophobic. It's as if Conservative America is telling the rest of us, "Look, if I want to call a black man 'nigger', a woman 'slut', and a gay man 'faggot", that's not my problem — it's yours. Grow a pair, accept my right to offend you, AND DON'T TALK BACK."

Thus, my response to criticism of "political correctness": If you want to be a racist, sexist, homophobic, or religious bigot, go ahead — shoot off your mouth. Use whatever hateful language and vile epithets you want; that IS indeed your right.

But don't whine when I rhetorically tear you a bloody new asshole, calling you out for your small-minded hatefulness and unsuitability as even a poor facsimile of a human being. If you're going to reserve the right to be insensitive to others around you, then I'm going to reserve the right to make your asshattery abundantly clear to the world, and ride you off into the sunset like a broken quarterhorse until you can't stand the sound of my voice in your ear.

Because if you insist on exercising your God-given right to bring discomfort and misery to the loves of others, then I'm going to make it my Karmic mission to bring discomfort and misery to yours. First Amendment, bitches.

Alien Space Bats wrote:

Quintium wrote:My signature has a very sensible point on political correctness. The subjects for political correctness may have changed since the early 1940s, but the ways in which it is generally carried out have not. It's not so much overt government censorship - which is a shame, because then people couldn't deny it - but rather a sickening, deceptive form of self-censorship by those genuinely afraid of offending someone or something they're afraid to offend.

Let's be honest with ourselves: Conservative carpring about political correctness is largely an effort to avoid getting called out for being racist, sexist, or homophobic. It's as if Conservative America is telling the rest of us, "Look, if I want to call a black man 'nigger', a woman 'slut', and a gay man 'faggot", that's not my problem — it's yours. Grow a pair, accept my right to offend you, AND DON'T TALK BACK."

Thus, my response to criticism of "political correctness": If you want to be a racist, sexist, homophobic, or religious bigot, go ahead — shoot off your mouth. Use whatever hateful language and vile epithets you want; that IS indeed your right.

But don't whine when I rhetorically tear you a bloody new asshole, calling you out for your small-minded hatefulness and unsuitability as even a poor facsimile of a human being. If you're going to reserve the right to be insensitive to others around you, then I'm going to reserve the right to make your asshattery abundantly clear to the world, and ride you off into the sunset like a broken quarterhorse until you can't stand the sound of my voice in your ear.

Because if you insist on exercising your God-given right to bring discomfort and misery to the loves of others, then I'm going to make it my Karmic mission to bring discomfort and misery to yours. First Amendment, bitches.

This post sorely needs a dropped mic at the end.

Frisivisia wrote:Yeah, political correctness is for black pussy liberal nigger-faggots, and don't you get offended.

Fixed for the reference