Gun lovers' paranoia helps stimulate the economy

[Jahka]

No we don't.

Fair enough. You do have very strict gun laws.

this increase in muggings is a direct result of their being stricter handgun legislation in the UK?

Ta.

I really don't know if this is a direct increase due to stricter gun violence. My point was strict gun laws doesn't make crime magically go away.

Could you put me in contact with these criminals, seeing as you talk to them and know of their inner thoughts?

Yes, I am physic. Not really, I just got that info from the LINK I posted.

[Trve]

There isnt anything wrong with a ban on assualt weapons.

Yah, there is. When was the last time you heard some guy attacked everyone with an assualt weapon.

Source.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-45&tab=summary

Not really.

Really.

Sense your only argument was asking him source things.

Well, this is a big fat lie. Or its stunning ignorance. The US actually has either higher crime rates then our fellow first world nations that have stricter gun laws, some of which ban guns all together, or similar crime rates.

The UK has a gun ban. Yet you are 6 times more likely to be mugged there then in New York City. The criminals (53%) don't fear breaking into other's homes, because they know the people do not own guns. Ask an American criminal if he will break in- he will tell you he is more scared of being shot by the owner, then of the police. (break-in with occupant home in USA - 13%)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm

Which explains all the mass shootings in Europe that occur on a regular basis.

Oh wait...

When was the last time you heard of a mass shooting that took place in a gun-free area? i.e. schools, libraries, government offices

Repeating the lie doesnt make it true.

Sure it does.

Ah, and which oppressive government that doesnt give you representation are you seceeding from?

Losing an election doesnt mean you arent represented.

Did he mention representation? Did he say he was going to seceed? You seem to have a fancy for twisting words.

EDIT: Fixed a typo.

You ignored me trashing his source. As for the rest of your 'arguement', its already been dealt with by Brits.

[Jahka]

There isnt anything wrong with a ban on assualt weapons.

Yah, there is. When was the last time you heard some guy attacked everyone with an assualt weapon.

Source.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-45&tab=summary

Not really.

Really.

Sense your only argument was asking him source things.

Well, this is a big fat lie. Or its stunning ignorance. The US actually has either higher crime rates then our fellow first world nations that have stricter gun laws, some of which ban guns all together, or similar crime rates.

The UK has a gun ban. Yet you are 6 times more likely to be mugged there then in New York City. The criminals (53%) don't fear breaking into other's homes, because they know the people do not own guns. Ask an American criminal if he will break in- he will tell you he is more scared of being shot by the owner, then of the police. (break-in with occupant home in USA - 13%)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm

Which explains all the mass shootings in Europe that occur on a regular basis.

Oh wait...

When was the last time you heard of a mass shooting that took place in a gun-free area? i.e. schools, libraries, government offices

Repeating the lie doesnt make it true.

Sure it does.

Ah, and which oppressive government that doesnt give you representation are you seceeding from?

Losing an election doesnt mean you arent represented.

Did he mention representation? Did he say he was going to seceed? You seem to have a fancy for twisting words.

EDIT: Fixed a typo.

You ignored me trashing his source. As for the rest of your 'arguement', its already been dealt with by Brits.

Can you please respond to all my points?

[Yootopia]

Yes, I am physic. Not really, I just got that info from the LINK I posted.

To someone's very biased opinion. From 2003.

[Intestinal fluids]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLuTjguJA

John Stossel Links Gun Control to Higher Crime Rates

[Jahka]

Yes, I am physic. Not really, I just got that info from the LINK I posted.

To someone's very biased opinion. From 2003.

Hehe

[Rustafari]

Ok, so that might be a bit of a stretch, but its becoming really hard to buy bullets lately, because you cant find em anywhere. Apperantly a lot of the gun nuts in the country have been listening to the Blob and Beck and are convinced, CONVINCED I TELL YOU that Obama is going to enact a higher tax on bullets or some other such nonsense with no basis in reality, so theyre going out and buying up all the bullets they can. And of course, we have the demagouges in the NRA doing the "AAAAH EVIL DEMOCRATS HATE UR RIGHTZ!!!!" dance, which is just adding fuel to the buying frenzy.

On the plus side, hey, its consumer spending. Glad to see theyre doing their part to increase consumer spending, and by extension, help the economy. Now if only they were buying something useful in bulk....

Of course, maybe theyre just arming their militias for a coming attempt at sucession. FORT SUMTER!!!!

First of all let me point out that there is absolutely nothing wrong with owning firearms. It's a Constitutionally protected right. Secondly, as far as Democrats hating gun rights is absolutely true for the most part. Their records speak for themselves. Most anti-gun legislation is usually proposed by Democrats and gets it's main support from Democrats. Just to cite two examples, both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have both stated time and again that they'd like more gun laws. In fact right now there is a bill in Congress for stricter gun laws. H.R. 45 Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009 would require gun owners to have to apply for a gun license every 5 years. Recently there was also legislation to limit the amount of ammunition a gun owner could purchase per month(I forget the name of the bill). So the paranoia is quite justified. If you count the fact that in recent years Americans Constitutional rights have been systematically stripped away this can only add to the paranoia. I do believe the Democrats believe they are doing this for the good of the people by creating gun laws, but their logic is flawed. It has been proven time and again that the stricter the gun laws are crime actually increases. When you take away guns from the people only two types of people have access. The government/police and the criminals. We've seen it throughout the world. Gun bans equal crime rate spikes.

On one final note. You talk of secession as if it were a bad thing. You must remember; were it not for secession there would be no United States of America.

I agree on everything except for the part that Democrats think they are doing this for the good of the people. They don't care about the people, they only pretend to. Any idiot (including the Democrats) knows that criminals will get guns anyway. And being criminals, they just might break the law requiring them to register the weapon. You even stated that more gun control equals more crime. I find it hard to believe that those statistics somehow escaped the Constitution hating Democrats. I am a Libertarian and I "cling to my gun and my religion".

[Rustafari]

Im glad the crazies came with to this new forum.

Loving the Constitution and respecting it for the limitations it puts on government and the rights it protects for me makes me a crazy? Knowing my history and not being blinded by propaganda makes me crazy? Expecting my government to uphold it's oath to the Constitution and gain the consent of the governed makes me crazy?

No. It is those that allow the government to destroy their rights, devalue their dollar, and run their economy into the ground while never saying a word are the crazy ones. Blind acceptance of government policy is what makes one crazy. So again I ask, having my own opinions and beliefs that do not coincide with the status quo of government makes me crazy? Well if that is the case; I do not want sanity.

Those are words of wisdom. Thank you.

[Reagan States]

Yes, I am physic. Not really, I just got that info from the LINK I posted.

To someone's very biased opinion. From 2003.

I just wanna say that a biased opinion does not make that opinion wrong. Look at these statistics from the story.

As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.

It's been 6 years. How much do you think that that statistic has changed since 2003?
Surely there must be some logical correlation between not wanting to rob a person while they're at home and a resident's gun ownership? What other factor could create such a drastic split between these numbers?

[Yootopia]

I just wanna say that a biased opinion does not make that opinion wrong. Look at these statistics from the story.
As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.
It's been 6 years. How much do you think that that statistic has changed since 2003?

Burglaries where other people are at home went down 30% between 2003 and 2008.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0708.pdf

Surely there must be some logical correlation between not wanting to rob a person while they're at home and a resident's gun ownership?

Aye, a fair point. On the other hand, losing a TV is far less important to me than the risk of people getting killed as both burglar and victim are scared and armed. Contents insurance can get your belongings back. Get shot up and you're a bit fucked tbqh.

What other factor could create such a drastic split between these numbers?

Time when burglars have broken into other peoples' houses and the influence of drugs?

[Velkya]

They don't care about the people, they only pretend to.

You act like this phenomenon is somehow unique among politicians.

[Intestinal fluids]

Burglaries where other people are at home went down 30% between 2003 and 2008.

So with 30% reduction that reduces the difference from 53% to 37%. This is still a rate 300% higher then that of the US.

Aye, a fair point. On the other hand, losing a TV is far less important to me than the risk of people getting killed as both burglar and victim are scared and armed. Contents insurance can get your belongings back. Get shot up and you're a bit fucked tbqh.

I hope when you roll over for the criminal in your house, he is nice enough to only steal from you and not murder you as a witness and/or rape your wife or children. Im glad your willing to place your security in the largess of a criminal that may or may not harm you at his complete and probably deranged discretion. No thank you. Ill take my chances and shoot him in the head instead.

Time when burglars have broken into other peoples' houses and the influence of drugs?

I dont understand this answer. Are you saying that drugs have caused more crime in one country then another or that drug use has dramatically changed crime in one country vs the other in last 5 years to justify a 300% difference?

[Chumblywumbly]

No we don't.

Fair enough. You do have very strict gun laws.

Yes, the UK does. Stricter than I'd like, but I much prefer the gun culture, for want of a better term, here in the UK than in the US. Not that countries with less draconian gun legislation always have such a... bad reputation for gun violence. Your pot-smoking neighbours to the north, for example.

My point was strict gun laws doesn't make crime magically go away.

Of course it doesn't.

Yes, I am physic. Not really, I just got that info from the LINK I posted.

The one from the BBC?

I don't see any such things on that page.

Burglaries where other people are at home went down 30% between 2003 and 2008.

So with 30% reduction that reduces the difference from 53% to 37%. This is still a rate 300% higher then that of the US.

What sort of maths are you using to get 300%?

Aye, a fair point. On the other hand, losing a TV is far less important to me than the risk of people getting killed as both burglar and victim are scared and armed. Contents insurance can get your belongings back. Get shot up and you're a bit fucked tbqh.

I hope when you roll over for the criminal in your house, he is nice enough to only steal from you and not murder you as a witness and/or rape your wife or children. Im glad your willing to place your security in the largess of a criminal that may or may not harm you at his complete and probably deranged discretion. No thank you. Ill take my chances and shoot him in the head instead.

Appeal to emotion is appealing and emotional.

[Intestinal fluids]

What sort of maths are you using to get 300%?

Im no math genius but if US home invasions with people at home is 13% and in UK its 53%( now apparently downgraded to 37%,) thats makes it roughly a 300% difference.

Appeal to emotion is appealing and emotional.

Emotions are things like happy and sad. Having a gun and shooting a burglar in the head is called self defense. One has nothing to do with the other.

[Yootopia]

Burglaries where other people are at home went down 30% between 2003 and 2008.

So with 30% reduction that reduces the difference from 53% to 37%. This is still a rate 300% higher then that of the US.

Yes it is. What's your point here? We have a larger problem with burglaries than the US. We have less of a problem with far more severe crimes such as murder and rape. I think we're coming out better here.

I hope when you roll over for the criminal in your house, he is nice enough to only steal from you and not murder you as a witness and/or rape your wife or children. Im glad your willing to place your security in the largess of a criminal that may or may not harm you at his complete and probably deranged discretion.

I was unaware that poverty caused people to be child rapists and murderers. Because that's the reason for most thefts.

No thank you. Ill take my chances and shoot him in the head instead.

Uhu... what happens if you miss and he doesn't? Fuck that shit tbqh. Shooting to kill anyone would make me lose a part of my soul. Not worth it for a TV or stereo.

Time when burglars have broken into other peoples' houses and the influence of drugs?

I dont understand this answer. Are you saying that drugs have caused more crime in one country then another or that drug use has dramatically changed crime in one country vs the other in last 5 years to justify a 300% difference?

Drugs have caused quite a lot of the problem in the UK. Not sure about the US, it might well be similar.

[Intestinal fluids]

Uhu... what happens if you miss and he doesn't? Fuck that shit tbqh. Shooting to kill anyone would make me lose a part of my soul. Not worth it for a TV or stereo.

Are you telling me with a straight face that there is no correlation between burglars and assault crimes? Use your head, your a smart person. If you just robbed an occupied house and are facing 10-20 years in prison if caught and someone has witnessed you rummaging thru their house for an hour and you know they will be on phone with police as soon as they wiggle free, what options besides taking the TV and leaving do you think could enter your criminal and self preservational mind? (The kind of mind that is already willing to risk 20 years in jail for a TV in the first place)

[Chumblywumbly]

Im no math genius but if US home invasions with people at home is 13% and in UK its 53%( now apparently downgraded to 37%,) thats makes it roughly a 300% difference.

...surely it would be a 40% or 24% difference?

Or are you counting in population differences... or am I just shit at stats?

Emotions are things like happy and sad. Having a gun and shooting a burglar in the head is called self defense. One has nothing to do with the other.

Rebutting with, 'if you don't come round to my side of the argument, you'll get killed and you wife will get raped', (what you're essentially doing) is an appeal to emotion; it's a rhetorical ploy, not a valid argument.

[East Canuck]

Im no math genius but if US home invasions with people at home is 13% and in UK its 53%( now apparently downgraded to 37%,) thats makes it roughly a 300% difference.

And when the US and UK have exactly the same economy, education, population density, immigration, budget and other socio-economic factors that modify home invasions stats, you'll have a point.

For now, we can only look at the stats before and after stricter gun laws are applied within THE SAME country.

[East Canuck]

Are you telling me with a straight face that there is no correlation between burglars and assault crimes? Use your head, your a smart person. If you just robbed an occupied house and are facing 10-20 years in prison if caught and someone has witnessed you rummaging thru their house for an hour and you know they will be on phone with police as soon as they wiggle free, what options besides taking the TV and leaving do you think could enter your criminal and self preservational mind? (The kind of mind that is already willing to risk 20 years in jail for a TV in the first place)

Yes I am.

And I base this on the fact that robbery crimes are much higher than murder. Your logic would presuppose that murder is a good option to not get caught. Statistics show that to not to be a concern of criminal in most cases.

[Yootopia]

If you just robbed an occupied house and are facing 10-20 years in prison if caught and someone has witnessed you rummaging thru their house for an hour and you know they will be on phone with police as soon as they wiggle free, what options besides taking the TV and leaving do you think could enter your criminal and self preservational mind? (The kind of mind that is already willing to risk 20 years in jail for a TV in the first place)

Theft gets you a couple of years inside in the UK. Much more for repeat convictions, but as a first offence, we're talking 3ish years. Add GBH/murder and rape, as you'd have it, and that's a life sentence. Which is more tempting, especially if you're only doing it to pay off your dealer?

...surely it would be a 40% or 24% difference?

No. It actually is a 300% difference.

Or are you counting in population differences... or am I just shit at stats?

I'm sorry to say it's the latter.

[Chumblywumbly]

...surely it would be a 40% or 24% difference?

Oh.

*is confuzzled*

[Yootopia]

...surely it would be a 40% or 24% difference?

Oh.

*is confuzzled*

Divide 37 by 13. Times this by one hundred. That's the percentage that things are higher over here.

[Intestinal fluids]

Theft gets you a couple of years inside in the UK. Much more for repeat convictions, but as a first offence, we're talking 3ish years. Add GBH/murder and rape, as you'd have it, and that's a life sentence. Which is more tempting, especially if you're only doing it to pay off your dealer?

Not being from the UK i dont know for sure but id suggest you check your facts. Maybe grand larceny is a few years in jail but im pretty sure armed robbery is a much much higher penalty then a couple of years. A gun possession charge alone is worth that.

[Yootopia]

Theft gets you a couple of years inside in the UK. Much more for repeat convictions, but as a first offence, we're talking 3ish years. Add GBH/murder and rape, as you'd have it, and that's a life sentence. Which is more tempting, especially if you're only doing it to pay off your dealer?

Not being from the UK i dont know for sure but id suggest you check your facts. Maybe grand larceny is a few years in jail but im pretty sure armed robbery is a much much higher penalty then a couple of years. A gun possession charge alone is worth that.

Armed robbery is exceptionally rare.

[Intestinal fluids]

Armed robbery is exceptionally rare.

So the 37% of all home invasions that happen with occupants inside, what do the criminals do? Just ask politely that everyone tie themselves up?