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Dismantling the Kalam argument for god

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Scorpions on the moon
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Dismantling the Kalam argument for god

Postby Scorpions on the moon » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:41 pm

Ok, so I've seen this argument thrown around a lot, and I've seen some of the responses to it. Honestly, I don't find any of them to be that effective. The KCA is a terrible argument, but a lot of the objections are terrible as well. So, I'm going to try and dismantle the argument entirely, using its own terms and assumptions. Hopefully, people can just link to this every time the argument comes up. My goal is to keep the KCA from ever, ever, being used on this forum again.(I took this from a debate I did on the topic.)

The argument
Modern day theists use the Kalam Cosmological Argument to establish the existence of god, who is defined as the timeless, spaceless, beginningless, immaterial, probably omnipotent, and personal cause of the universe. The argument has three premises.

P1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
P2: The universe began to exist.
C: The universe had a cause.

By deductive reasoning, that cause is established to be god.

God caused the first state of time to exist
The KCA assumes that there is some state of time that is not preceded by any other state of time. We will call this the initial state of time, which is state of time that is not preceded by any other state of time. On a theistic view, all of matter, space, and energy came into existence in this initial state of time. The theist asserts that everything which begins to exist has a cause, so the beginning of all of these things requires a cause.

My goal is not to show that the casual principle is wrong, or that the universe is eternal or oscillating. I agree with the first two premises of the argument. My only goal is to show that the initial state of time cannot exist, so god cannot have caused it. If god cannot have caused it, then he cannot exist, because god is defined by the KCA as the cause of the initial state of time.

Theists such as William Lane Craig appeal to the Big Bang in order to show that the universe had a beginning (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-crai ... #section_2). I don't disagree with this, and I too think that the universe had a beginning. It's significant because the theory of relativity proves that we don't live in a static universe, a discovery which helped the Big Bang theory get developed. One of the major proofs of the Big Bang is that the universe can't be static. If the theory of relativity is wrong, then the best proof of the Big Bang theory is also wrong. It would be very awkward for a theist to deny the theory of relativity, because it has implications on the Big Bang. If you invoke the Big Bang, you invoke relativity. If you deny relativity, you can't invoke the Big Bang. It's difficult, if not impossible, to prove premise two without the use of relativity. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/re ... osmos.html)

I shouldn't argue by implication only, however. There are many proofs of general relativity, some complex and some simple, so I will show that relativity is true using one of the simpler arguments. For many centuries, it was noted that the orbit of Mercury was slightly different from what Newton's equations would predict. Instead of orbiting in a perfect ellipse like other plants, the orbit of Mercury precesses (which means it does not return to the same point after one orbit, but shifts slightly). When Einstein calculated the orbit of Mercury using the equations of general relativity, it predicted the orbit of Mercury with perfect accuracy. This is a strong indication that the theory of relativity is true. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_g ... of_Mercury)

This leads us to a problem with the KCA that has been ignored by theists in the mainstream literature. It's even ignored by atheist philosophers. If the theory of relativity is true, then there cannot be an initial state of time. The theory that the KCA assumes ends up being its demise. There are equations derived from the theory of relativity called the 'Friedmann-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker' metric. This metric describes a universe that is homogeneous, isotropic, and expanding universe (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmo ... ology/#2.5). These metrics also state that every finite interval of time is half-open. This means that if you have a finite interval of time, such as an hour, you can divide that state into half an hour and another half an hour. An initial state of time is a finite interval, ergo, it is half-open. But if it is half-open, then it cannot be an initial state, because you can divide it in half.

The KCA assumes that there is an initial state of time. Premise two of the KCA assumes the theory of relativity. The theory of relativity contradicts the assumption that there is an initial state of time. Therefore, the KCA false, because its assumptions contradict one of the most proven theories in all of science.

A Personal Cause of the Universe
The KCA depends on the idea of simultaneous causation (http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=687). Simultaneous causation is the idea that ‘’the causal order must not be the temporal order because of the possibility of cause and effect being contemporaneous.’’ (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causa ... taphysics/) This is another instance of the KCA causing its own demise. The possibility of simultaneous causation allows us to explain the existence of matter without reference to a personal cause. Imagine atoms A, B, and C. A comes into existence and instantaneously causes B, which instantaneously causes C, which instantaneously causes A. All of the atoms have causal explanation, and they all begin to exist at the exact same time. Using the assumptions of the KCA, it can be demonstrated that there is no need to have a personal cause of matter.

Quentin Smith gave a talk that demolishes the idea of a personal cause (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... heism.html). He mentions the development of the Wave Function of the Universe by scientists such as Hawking and Vilenkin. It ‘’implies that it is highly probable that a universe with our characteristics will come into existence without a cause. Hawking's theory is based on assigning numbers to all possible universes. All of the numbers cancel out except for a universe with features our universe possesses. For example, contains intelligent organisms such as humans. This remaining universe has a certain probability very high -- near to a hundred percent -- of coming into existence uncaused.’’ The Wave Function also has a large amount of evidence to support it: ‘’This theory predicts our universe has evenly-distributed matter on a large scale, which would be on scales of super-clusters of galaxies. It predicts that the expansion rate of our universe -- our universe has been expanding ever since -- would be almost exactly between the rate of the universe expanding forever and the rate where it expands and then collapses. It also predicts the very early area of rapid expansion near the beginning of the universe called inflation. Hawking's theory exactly predicted what the COBE satellite discovered about the irregularities of the background radiation in the universe.’’ The universe came from ‘’a timeless space, a four-dimensional hypersphere, near the beginning of the universe.’’ This demonstrates that a personal cause is not needed, but more importantly, it demonstrates that a personal cause is unlikely. As Smith says: ‘’For the wave function of the universe implies there is a 95% probability that the universe came into existence uncaused. If God created the universe, he would contradict this scientific law in two ways. First, the scientific law says that the universe would come into existence because of its natural, mathematical properties, not because of any supernatural forces. Second, the scientific law says the probability is only 95% that the universe would come into existence. But if God created the universe, the probability would be 100% that it would come into existence because God is all-powerful. If God wills the universe to come into existence, his will is guaranteed to be 100% effective.’’

Conclusion
The KCA has many assumptions. It assumes the Big Bang, so it also assumes relativity. Even if it didn't, the theory of relativity is obviously true anyways. It also assumes that simultaneous causation is possible. Using these two assumptions, it can be demonstrated that the KCA is wrong on its own terms. God cannot cause an initial state of time, and matter can come without reference to a personal cause.

The scientific evidence also demonstrates that a universe such as ours is probable, and that a personal explanation is confirmed to be unnecessary and implausible.

So there you have it. This argument should never be used again on this forum. Feel free to link this if it ever comes up again.
Last edited by Scorpions on the moon on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Scott W Pilgrim
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Postby Scott W Pilgrim » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:55 pm

I see the argument basically boiling down to, "There is a door there. It had a creator, which had creators (the parents), who were created by generations back of parents until the first Protozoa, which were created by god... because they're there."
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Postby Tsaraine » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:04 pm

After some discussion and being asked to review this by Nathi, I've made the decision to unlock it. Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines!

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Scott W Pilgrim
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Postby Scott W Pilgrim » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:05 pm

Tsaraine wrote:After some discussion and being asked to review this by Nathi, I've made the decision to unlock it. Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines!

~ Tsar the Mod

Vroom vroom.
We are Sex Bob-Omb and we are here to make you think about death and get sad and stuff.
I'm not letting Bunny achieve world domination. Why? Bunny has not made his campaign platform clear. Does he support abortion, or same-sex marriage? What are his key issues? What is his background, and does he have any outstanding points going for, or against him?
Psst! I'm actually Thafoo!

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Scorpions on the moon
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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:06 pm

Anyone have any criticisms of my rebuttal?

Also, I thank the mods for reviewing the situation.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:08 pm

Not only that, but the concept of affectless effects is a completely absurd suggestion.

What did god affect to create the effect of the universe?
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:10 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:Not only that, but the concept of affectless effects is a completely absurd suggestion.

What did god affect to create the effect of the universe?


They invoke a really complex notion of simultaneous causation, but as I showed in the OP, it really just hurts the argument.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:19 pm

Scorpions on the moon wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Not only that, but the concept of affectless effects is a completely absurd suggestion.

What did god affect to create the effect of the universe?


They invoke a really complex notion of simultaneous causation, but as I showed in the OP, it really just hurts the argument.


It seems like a good rebuttal.
It reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... D9MtIma5YU

Series of videos addressed to Dr. Craig
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Postby The Whispers » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:20 pm

Scorpions on the moon wrote:Anyone have any criticisms of my rebuttal?

Also, I thank the mods for reviewing the situation.

Yeah whatever it's a pretty boilerplate, obvious criticism of a theory a GCSE student should have no problem poking holes in.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:21 pm

The Whispers wrote:
Scorpions on the moon wrote:Anyone have any criticisms of my rebuttal?

Also, I thank the mods for reviewing the situation.

Yeah whatever it's a pretty boilerplate, obvious criticism of a theory a GCSE student should have no problem poking holes in.


The issue is more that we need to make the argument against it as simply worded and understandable as possible for precisely the reason you've alluded to.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Scorpions on the moon
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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm

The Whispers wrote:
Scorpions on the moon wrote:Anyone have any criticisms of my rebuttal?

Also, I thank the mods for reviewing the situation.

Yeah whatever it's a pretty boilerplate, obvious criticism of a theory a GCSE student should have no problem poking holes in.


And yet, the responses I see are philosophically terrible.

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Scorpions on the moon
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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:23 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Scorpions on the moon wrote:
They invoke a really complex notion of simultaneous causation, but as I showed in the OP, it really just hurts the argument.


It seems like a good rebuttal.
It reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... D9MtIma5YU

Series of videos addressed to Dr. Craig


I've only watched his videos on the modal ontological argument. I didn't agree with criticisms.

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Czechanada
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Postby Czechanada » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:23 pm

There's no "before" the Big Bang as time didn't exist without space.
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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:24 pm

Czechanada wrote:There's no "before" the Big Bang as time didn't exist without space.


I don't know of any academic theist who thinks god existed before the Big Bang. They consider him to have existed sans time, not before time.

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Postby Czechanada » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:24 pm

Scorpions on the moon wrote:
Czechanada wrote:There's no "before" the Big Bang as time didn't exist without space.


I don't know of any academic theist who thinks god existed before the Big Bang. They consider him to have existed sans time, not before time.


The point I'm trying to make that is the universe didn't have to "begin."
"You know what I was. You see what I am. Change me, change me!" - Randall Jarrell.

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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:27 pm

Czechanada wrote:
Scorpions on the moon wrote:
I don't know of any academic theist who thinks god existed before the Big Bang. They consider him to have existed sans time, not before time.


The point I'm trying to make that is the universe didn't have to "begin."


It began in the sense that no state of time is greater than or equal to thirteen billion years ago.

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The Whispers
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Postby The Whispers » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:27 pm

Scorpions on the moon wrote:
Czechanada wrote:
The point I'm trying to make that is the universe didn't have to "begin."


It began in the sense that no state of time is greater than or equal to thirteen billion years ago.

Or so it would currently appear.

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Postby OMGeverynameistaken » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:32 pm

Scorpions on the moon wrote:
Czechanada wrote:
The point I'm trying to make that is the universe didn't have to "begin."


It began in the sense that no state of time is greater than or equal to thirteen billion years ago.

Unless the Big Bang was just part of an infinite cycle of creation and destruction punctuated by a series of Big Bangs.

Which would, in turn, imply that there was a first Big Bang. Which would in turn mean that there was something before said first Big Bang. Possibly puberty.
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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:54 pm

OMGeverynameistaken wrote:
Scorpions on the moon wrote:
It began in the sense that no state of time is greater than or equal to thirteen billion years ago.

Unless the Big Bang was just part of an infinite cycle of creation and destruction punctuated by a series of Big Bangs.

Which would, in turn, imply that there was a first Big Bang. Which would in turn mean that there was something before said first Big Bang. Possibly puberty.


Are you talking about an oscillating model?

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Scorpions on the moon
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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:55 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Whispers wrote:Yeah whatever it's a pretty boilerplate, obvious criticism of a theory a GCSE student should have no problem poking holes in.


The issue is more that we need to make the argument against it as simply worded and understandable as possible for precisely the reason you've alluded to.


That's definitely a problem. People like Dr. Craig are able to get this argument around because it's so simple to most people. The explanation of why its wrong, on the other hand, is much more complex.

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OMGeverynameistaken
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Postby OMGeverynameistaken » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:58 pm

Scorpions on the moon wrote:
OMGeverynameistaken wrote:Unless the Big Bang was just part of an infinite cycle of creation and destruction punctuated by a series of Big Bangs.

Which would, in turn, imply that there was a first Big Bang. Which would in turn mean that there was something before said first Big Bang. Possibly puberty.


Are you talking about an oscillating model?

Oscillation would certainly be part of it.
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Postby Scorpions on the moon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:01 pm

OMGeverynameistaken wrote:
Scorpions on the moon wrote:
Are you talking about an oscillating model?

Oscillation would certainly be part of it.


I've never seen any good reasons to accept it. Though, if it turned out to be true, I wouldn't be bothered.

The main point of my OP is to try and take the assumptions of the KCA and use it against it. That's why I prefer to stick to the standard Big Bang model.

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Postby Utceforp » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:22 pm

Theists and Atheists both believe that something came from nothing, it's just the Theists believe that there was an in-between step between "nothing" and "something" called "magical toga-man". (I used "magical toga-man" because I think "magical beard-man" is over used). Just wanted to put things in perspective.
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