Dutch lesbians raise turkish boy

[Choronzon]

Freiheit Reich seriously thinks we should tattoo trans people's foreheads with a "T' so that cis people wont kill themselves upon learning that they "accidentally" slept with a trans person. Why are you all even engaging him in conversation on this matter?

A trans-woman is physically not the same as a real, biological woman. So at the very least, I think transsexuals should respect cisgender people's wish to not partake in sex with them if that is their decision. I consider a transsexual misleading a cisgender into believing that they are a biological male or female while knowing that the cisgender person would not agree to sex with a transsexual; to be sex under false pretenses.

Your prejudices and insecurities are not the topic of conversation here.

I was just pointing out that appealing to Freiheit Reich is a totally lost cause.

[Scandza]

I got as far as 'neglected' and decided I didn't care what objections the biological parents had. To anything.

This is pretty much my reaction to the whole issue at hand. If you care so much maybe you wouldn't of had your child taken away.

[Grenartia]

Turkey shouldn't say anything.

1. However, a big concern is lesbians are allowed to raise children in the Netherlands. 2. Homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt. 3.Children should be raised in a normal family (husband and wife).

4. The kid will probably have social problems and be confused about what makes up a normal family.

1. Scientific studies have shown that homosexual couples are just as capable parents as heterosexuals. There should be NO concern.

2. Why not?

3. Again, two women or two men are just as capable as a man and a woman. Also, what about kids of single parents? Are they somehow inferior?

4. Just like kids of single parents will be confused and have social problems? Bullshit. Also, normal families are those that love their kids.

In the Netherlands?!


Why, are you suggesting they won't be able to love and care for him?

Yes, they may love him 1. BUT the govt. should not encourage gay relationships. 2. Many people want to have children. 3. Gays should be punished for their choice by not being allowed to adopt children.

4. Also, it might lead the boy into thinking gay relationships are normal (when they definitely are not).

1. Neither should it encourage heterosexual ones.

2. Yes. And there are PLENTY of children in state care/orphanages. There's more of a problem of lack of willing adoptive parents than not enough kids to adopt.

3. Punished for what? And why?

4. What's wrong with thinking that homosexuality is something that it actually is (normal)? Also, source for it not being normal (and don't give me the 'most people are hetero'/'if everyone were gay, humanity would die out'/'God says' bullshit, because we've refuted those arguments more than 10,000 times).

Freiheit Reich seriously thinks we should tattoo trans people's foreheads with a "T' so that cis people wont kill themselves upon learning that they "accidentally" slept with a trans person. Why are you all even engaging him in conversation on this matter?

A trans-woman is physically not the same as a real, biological woman. So at the very least, I think transsexuals should respect cisgender people's wish to not partake in sex with them if that is their decision. I consider a transsexual misleading a cisgender into believing that they are a biological male or female while knowing that the cisgender person would not agree to sex with a transsexual; to be sex under false pretenses.

Except trans* people don't do that because it would only lead to being killed/raped/beaten.

Trans*deception is a myth.

[Saiwania]

Except trans* people don't do that because it would only lead to being killed/raped/beaten. Trans*deception is a myth.

I would never do that, and in no way will I condone violence against transsexuals. Even if I did believe I was misled by one into believing that they were a certain sex, the most negative reaction from my part would merely be verbal anger. But not having been in that situation, I'm not sure how well I'd take such a revelation- but I do have a reasonable level of restraint.

I do get that transsexuals are at risk for violence from very intolerant people, but transsexuals are not required to disclose their medical history before sexual relations with a partner, so it would be possible but not likely for there to be a misunderstanding. Which is why I believe it is important for both parties to outline what they're looking for in a relationship beforehand and that way, if it can't work out both people can avoid seeing each other in the first place.

Most transsexuals believe that they are their chosen sex and will act as such, but I believe the vast majority of them would respect a cisgender person's wish to not date any transsexuals and would choose to pass that person up voluntarily for obvious reasons.

[Grenartia]

Except trans* people don't do that because it would only lead to being killed/raped/beaten. Trans*deception is a myth.

1. I would never do that, and in no way will I condone violence against transsexuals. Even if I did believe I was misled by one into believing that they were a certain sex, the most negative reaction from my part would merely be verbal anger. But not having been in that situation, I'm not sure how well I'd take such a revelation- but I do have a reasonable level of restraint.

2. I do get that transsexuals are at risk for violence from very intolerant people, but transsexuals are not required to disclose their medical history before sexual relations with a partner, so it would be possible but not likely for there to be a misunderstanding. Which is why I believe it is important for both parties to outline what they're looking for in a relationship beforehand and that way, if it can't work out both people can avoid seeing each other in the first place.

3. Most transsexuals believe that they are their chosen sex and will act as such, but I believe the vast majority of them would respect a cisgender person's wish to not date any transsexuals and would choose to pass that person up voluntarily for obvious reasons.

1. Just because you don't condone violence doesn't mean others don't, either.

2. Not required, no, but many still do disclose because its the right thing to do.

3. Gender, but yes, you're more or less correct.

[Saiwania]

2. Not required, no, but many still do disclose because its the right thing to do.

Yes, but my paranoia is about the small minority of transsexuals who wouldn't disclose before a sexual relationship.

If I wound up having sex with a transsexual who I thought was a woman from having such a well done sex change, I would feel that I was at fault for not being able to tell that she wasn't a biological female and for failing to sufficiently mention my lack of interest in transsexuals ahead of time.

The trans-woman would likely see herself as no different from other women and would not think it is necessary to disclose their birth sex because it would imply that she isn't her chosen gender. But if she knew that I didn't want sex from any transsexuals but decided to keep pretending to be a biological female until after sex, well- I guess I'd feel betrayed.

[Grenartia]

2. Not required, no, but many still do disclose because its the right thing to do.

Yes, but my paranoia is about the small minority of transsexuals who wouldn't disclose before a sexual relationship.

If I wound up having sex with a transsexual who I thought was a woman from having such a well done sex change, I would feel that I was at fault for not being able to tell that she wasn't a biological female and for failing to sufficiently mention my lack of interest in transsexuals ahead of time.

The trans-woman would likely see herself as no different from other women and would not think it is necessary to disclose their birth sex because it would imply that she isn't her chosen gender. But if she knew that I didn't want sex from any transsexuals but decided to keep pretending to be a biological female until after sex, well- I guess I'd feel betrayed.

The thing is, I'd wager money I don't have that the percent of trans* people who wouldn't disclose before sex, or even before the relationship gets serious is in the single digits.

[Ivory Record]

Turkey shouldn't say anything.

1. However, a big concern is lesbians are allowed to raise children in the Netherlands.

2. Homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt.

3.Children should be raised in a normal family (husband and wife).

4. The kid will probably have social problems and be confused about what makes up a normal family.

What can I say, I like to pick low-hanging fruit...

1. This is not remotely concerning since the adoption agency responsible for this child's placement was secular, and there can be no reason other than religious ones for concern about the placement.

2. I feel that heterosexuals should not be allowed to adopt because of the statistically-higher probability of passing on homophobic and possibly transphobic attitudes to their adoptive children. QED. {/sarcasm]

3. No, what you're trying to say is that children should be raised in hetero-normative families, circa the 1950s. The "normal nuclear family" is no longer normal - statistically, at least in my home country, there is a greater percentage of single parents and unmarried couples raising children than married, unseperated couples. Statistically, a single parent with children (usually the mother) is the new normal family.

There was also a study once done (which I believe you cited) stating that two-parent families, regardless of the gender of the parents, were preferential to raising children, so let's screw normal.

4. I wasn't aware you were an expert on developmental psychology. I was raised by married straights and I still understood pretty quickly at an early age that not every family was like mine - some people had just a mom, some had just a dad, and some had both, but maybe two of one or the other. The hetero-normative family unit hasn't been normal for over two decades now.

Strictly anecdotally, my significant other was raised strictly by their mother with no contact with her father, and they grew up to be perfectly well-adjusted, normative, and understanding just fine how family units of all sorts of different compositions work/

Freiheit Reich seriously thinks we should tattoo trans people's foreheads with a "T' so that cis people wont kill themselves upon learning that they "accidentally" slept with a trans person. Why are you all even engaging him in conversation on this matter?

A trans-woman is physically not the same as a real, biological woman. So at the very least, I think transsexuals should respect cisgender people's wish to not partake in sex with them if that is their decision. I consider a transsexual misleading a cisgender into believing that they are a biological male or female while knowing that the cisgender person would not agree to sex with a transsexual; to be sex under false pretenses.

While it is a bit of a threadjack to have swapped the conversation toward the trans end of the LGBTQ-spectrum, I'd like to point out that, while trans individuals are not physically, shall we say "capable" of many of the same things as cisgender people of the same gender, the anatomical differences are rapidly approaching triviality as improvement in surgical techniques continue.

Choronzon's opinion on the matter is noted, my opinion is that, if you haven't spent enough time with a person for their transsexuality to have come up in conversation, you have no business climbing into bed with them in the first place.

As Saiwania later pointed out, Trans trans-deception is statistically Not A Thing.

Yes, but my paranoia is about the small minority of transsexuals who wouldn't disclose before a sexual relationship.

If I wound up having sex with a transsexual who I thought was a woman from having such a well done sex change, I would feel that I was at fault for not being able to tell that she wasn't a biological female and for failing to sufficiently mention my lack of interest in transsexuals ahead of time.

The trans-woman would likely see herself as no different from other women and would not think it is necessary to disclose their birth sex because it would imply that she isn't her chosen gender. But if she knew that I didn't want sex from any transsexuals but decided to keep pretending to be a biological female until after sex, well- I guess I'd feel betrayed.

If the sex change was performed so well, and this person's mannerisms and other aspects so perfectly female, what, other than squeemishness and ability to carry a child to term, makes her different enough that you'd feel betrayed?

Moreover, if this person was attractive enough in all these aspects that you would have no problem having sex with her, what's really the problem with them being transsexual?

Edit log:
1. Added final section
2. Fixed clumsy quote.
3. Added sarcasm tag.

[Quintium]

Erdogan has been meddling in this country's affairs before. He has compared demanding integration into Dutch society by any of the 400,000 Turks sent here with fascism, and he demands that all Turks who live here keep their Turkish passports and remain loyal to the Turkish government. And unfortunately, many listen to him. There have been Turkish nationalist marches in The Hague, and I tend to call one of the neighbourhoods in that city Little Istanbul.

In other news, Thrace and Byzantium belong to Greece!

[Pradja]

Erdogan has been meddling in this country's affairs before. He has compared demanding integration into Dutch society by any of the 400,000 Turks sent here with fascism, and he demands that all Turks who live here keep their Turkish passports and remain loyal to the Turkish government. And unfortunately, many listen to him. There have been Turkish nationalist marches in The Hague, and I tend to call one of the neighbourhoods in that city Little Istanbul.

In other news, Thrace and Byzantium belong to Greece!

You know I am all for tolerance and all that stuff but if thats the case, just send them back to their country of origin.

[The Rich Port]

I have to admit, it's rather suspicious of Dutch Social Services for not saying how exactly the mother neglected the child.

What if this was a misunderstanding? I'm certain that happens all of the time in some cases.

[Fintanland]

You know I am all for tolerance and all that stuff but if thats the case, just send them back to their country of origin.

Deport people for their views? That's a little extreme, isn't it? Deny them citizenship if they do not already have it and seriously show they are not willing to become loyal to their new country? Sure. Deport them? What crime have they committed?

[Reichsland]

Once the parents lost their child, they have no more say as to what happens to them or who raises them. It amazes me at how some people neglect their child and then have the audacity to complain and throw a fit about the people that take the child and raise it. They should have thought about that before they mistreated him.

[Faolinn]

Hey if they do a better job than his biological parents I cannot see anything wrong this.

[Grenartia]

-snip-

You. I like you.

[Ivory Record]

-snip-

You. I like you.

I like to think I do what I can...

[Ivory Record]

Erdogan has been meddling in this country's affairs before. He has compared demanding integration into Dutch society by any of the 400,000 Turks sent here with fascism, and he demands that all Turks who live here keep their Turkish passports and remain loyal to the Turkish government. And unfortunately, many listen to him. There have been Turkish nationalist marches in The Hague, and I tend to call one of the neighbourhoods in that city Little Istanbul.

In other news, Thrace and Byzantium belong to Greece!

You know I am all for tolerance and all that stuff but if thats the case, just send them back to their country of origin.

Deporting people for not fully integrating is a conversation the Native Americans never got to have...

[Saiwania]

If the sex change was performed so well, and this person's mannerisms and other aspects so perfectly female, what, other than squeamishness and ability to carry a child to term, makes her different enough that you'd feel betrayed?

Moreover, if this person was attractive enough in all these aspects that you would have no problem having sex with her, what's really the problem with them being transsexual?

I don't know to be honest, the fact that a trans-woman used to be male but now looks no different from an attractive female would be difficult for my mind to grasp. If I knew, I couldn't help but keep trying to imagine what she looked like as a male and would be disgusted and ashamed of my previous attraction to a transsexual. I know I'm just not completely tolerant and I am pathetic in some ways.

Such a situation would be very hard for me, because I'd probably want to continue but knowing about her being a transsexual would cause me to want to break things off.

I don't want to thread jack too much, so I am going to comment some about the topic: I believe if the parents of that adopted child were neglectful and don't have custody that they don't get to decide which foster family the child is transferred to, anymore than infantry soldiers get to decide where they are deployed overseas.

[Tekania]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/dutch-lesbian-couple-in-hiding-with-foster-son-after-biological-parents-protest-on-turkish-tv/2013/03/15/df940aec-8d87-11e2-adca-74ab31da3399_story.html

So the problem is the following: A neglected child was taken away from his Turkish family in the Netherlands. After that, he was placed at a lesbian family. The biological parents object to this.

In Turkey, several politicians are objecting to the fact that children with Turkish ancestry are being raised by Christians, homosexuals and others whose values are rejected by their biological (Turkish) parents. (For once, Christians and homosexuals are on the same side )

My opinion is that when a child is taken away, that the biological parents should not have a say about who will be raising their kid instead. A foreign country really should not be involved in the matter. The kid is being raised in the Netherlands, not in Turkey.

But NSG, what do you say?

My view would be that if you want a say in your child after your custody was removed, that you should correct the issue of the custody being removed, and get custody back. Otherwise, touch fucking shit. Frankly if the state has to take custody away from you, I don't give a shit about your opinions. You've proven yourself to be a bad parent.

[Pradja]

You know I am all for tolerance and all that stuff but if thats the case, just send them back to their country of origin.

Deporting people for not fully integrating is a conversation the Native Americans never got to have...

Aye, sadly that is true.

[Freiheit Reich]

Turkey shouldn't say anything.

1. However, a big concern is lesbians are allowed to raise children in the Netherlands. 2. Homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt. 3.Children should be raised in a normal family (husband and wife).

4. The kid will probably have social problems and be confused about what makes up a normal family.

1. Scientific studies have shown that homosexual couples are just as capable parents as heterosexuals. There should be NO concern.

2. Why not?

3. Again, two women or two men are just as capable as a man and a woman. Also, what about kids of single parents? Are they somehow inferior?

4. Just like kids of single parents will be confused and have social problems? Bullshit. Also, normal families are those that love their kids.

[spoiler]

Yes, they may love him 1. BUT the govt. should not encourage gay relationships. 2. Many people want to have children. 3. Gays should be punished for their choice by not being allowed to adopt children.

4. Also, it might lead the boy into thinking gay relationships are normal (when they definitely are not).

1. Neither should it encourage heterosexual ones.

2. Yes. And there are PLENTY of children in state care/orphanages. There's more of a problem of lack of willing adoptive parents than not enough kids to adopt.

3. Punished for what? And why?

4. What's wrong with thinking that homosexuality is something that it actually is (normal)? Also, source for it not being normal (and don't give me the 'most people are hetero'/'if everyone were gay, humanity would die out'/'God says' bullshit, because we've refuted those arguments more than 10,000 times).

A trans-woman is physically not the same as a real, biological woman. So at the very least, I think transsexuals should respect cisgender people's wish to not partake in sex with them if that is their decision. I consider a transsexual misleading a cisgender into believing that they are a biological male or female while knowing that the cisgender person would not agree to sex with a transsexual; to be sex under false pretenses.

Except trans* people don't do that because it would only lead to being killed/raped/beaten.

Trans*deception is a myth.

[/spoiler]

1. OK, I will say the USA shouldn't use financial pushes to encourage relationships of any kind. However, the nuclear family should be encouraged in other ways such as in propoganda (schools could be a good place to start) and anti-gay propoganda and not allowing gays to adopt (unless it involves a sibling's/parent's kid and no other family options exist).

2. If there are so many children in orphanages, why are Americans rushing to adopt children in third world nations as well as China? What makes Chinese or African babies superior to American babies? Getting a foreign wife makes sense, getting a foreign baby via adoption is stupid UNLESS the US govt. makes domestic adoption harder than foreign adoption.

3. Not punished with jail-the govt. should not police sex behaviors between consenting adults. They can punish in other ways by making gays feel like social deviants through laws such as not letting them adopt and classifying homosexuality as a mental illness. Propoganda (including in schools) can also work. People should be discouraged from becoming gay. If people have gay urges, they can choose celibacy.

4. Dual-gender families best for children:

http://narth.com/2011/09/dual-gender-pa ... velopment/

4 (part B): Gays not normal (NARTH has many more articles-check out their site, this is one study):

http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

sorry for delay in post, I had a busy couple days.

[Girbona]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/dutch-lesbian-couple-in-hiding-with-foster-son-after-biological-parents-protest-on-turkish-tv/2013/03/15/df940aec-8d87-11e2-adca-74ab31da3399_story.html

So the problem is the following: A neglected child was taken away from his Turkish family in the Netherlands. After that, he was placed at a lesbian family. The biological parents object to this.

In Turkey, several politicians are objecting to the fact that children with Turkish ancestry are being raised by Christians, homosexuals and others whose values are rejected by their biological (Turkish) parents. (For once, Christians and homosexuals are on the same side )

My opinion is that when a child is taken away, that the biological parents should not have a say about who will be raising their kid instead. A foreign country really should not be involved in the matter. The kid is being raised in the Netherlands, not in Turkey.

But NSG, what do you say?

The parents screwed up in the first place and shouldn't have any influence on how the child is raised now. The child is happy with the new family and all the intolerance to 'christians' or 'lesbians' should be ignored.

[The Emerald Dawn]

[spoiler]

1. Scientific studies have shown that homosexual couples are just as capable parents as heterosexuals. There should be NO concern.

2. Why not?

3. Again, two women or two men are just as capable as a man and a woman. Also, what about kids of single parents? Are they somehow inferior?

4. Just like kids of single parents will be confused and have social problems? Bullshit. Also, normal families are those that love their kids.



1. Neither should it encourage heterosexual ones.

2. Yes. And there are PLENTY of children in state care/orphanages. There's more of a problem of lack of willing adoptive parents than not enough kids to adopt.

3. Punished for what? And why?

4. What's wrong with thinking that homosexuality is something that it actually is (normal)? Also, source for it not being normal (and don't give me the 'most people are hetero'/'if everyone were gay, humanity would die out'/'God says' bullshit, because we've refuted those arguments more than 10,000 times).



Except trans* people don't do that because it would only lead to being killed/raped/beaten.

Trans*deception is a myth.

1. OK, I will say the USA shouldn't use financial pushes to encourage relationships of any kind. However, the nuclear family should be encouraged in other ways such as in propoganda (schools could be a good place to start) and anti-gay propoganda and not allowing gays to adopt (unless it involves a sibling's/parent's kid and no other family options exist).

2. If there are so many children in orphanages, why are Americans rushing to adopt children in third world nations as well as China? What makes Chinese or African babies superior to American babies? Getting a foreign wife makes sense, getting a foreign baby via adoption is stupid UNLESS the US govt. makes domestic adoption harder than foreign adoption.

3. Not punished with jail-the govt. should not police sex behaviors between consenting adults. They can punish in other ways by making gays feel like social deviants through laws such as not letting them adopt and classifying homosexuality as a mental illness. Propoganda (including in schools) can also work. People should be discouraged from becoming gay. If people have gay urges, they can choose celibacy.

4. Dual-gender families best for children:

http://narth.com/2011/09/dual-gender-pa ... velopment/

4 (part B): Gays not normal (NARTH has many more articles-check out their site, this is one study):

http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

sorry for delay in post, I had a busy couple days.[/spoiler]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_%26_Therapy_of_Homosexuality

No.

[Freiheit Reich]

That's silly. We brand thieves with the T.

I'd say go with a question mark, but we tried that...

And, well, let's just say Batman is no longer loved in the trans community.

In fairness I found a compromise, the contract that trannies must have their partner sign or risk financial penalties should their fooled partner sue for deceit. The contract would protect the trannies and it could be registered for a small fee at the county courthouse (in case trannie loses contract). Trannie is fine unless partner sues and then trannie is fine as long as it got the contract signed.

I am open minded. If I think of better ideas or somebody has better ideas I will consider them. I didn't like the tatoo idea that much but it seemed the best idea until I thought of something better (only a few hours later).

Trannies are scary but the tatoo idea could lead to a slippery slope.

[Urmanian]

self-proclaimed libertarian...promoting...state propaganda of discrimination and regulation of adoption...

although, I gotta give your points for honesty. instead of muddling the issue, you straight go to advocating monstrous, abominable, medieval bullshit like anti-gay propaganda in schools. doesn't make your views any less hateful, despicable and downright evil, though.

I am open minded.

hahahahaha