Pirates... as in Argh, matey

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Two wrongs don't make a right. That is the problem with the Sea Shepherds.

Not everyone agrees with you as to what constitutes a wrong.

[Democratic Koyro]

Good. Hopefully the criminal vermin will get whats coming to them.

I don't see why people hate whaling so much...

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Good. Hopefully the criminal vermin will get whats coming to them.

I don't see why people hate whaling so much...

Because it's murder of an intelligent life form for no actual reason beyond using it for meat that barely anyone eats anymore, and as a puerile way to show their independence from Western norms. The hunt costs more than any profit they make at this point. It's sheer idiocy.
And they're criminals? Depends on which national laws you're abiding by. It's a debatable point, to be sure.

[Curiosityness]

Pirates used to be cool, swashbuckling, looting adventurers and outlaws... then the Somali's came along and ruined everything.

Yeah, but that's because of technology. If they were still those rope swinging, bearded bad asses. They would be a bit behind

[Democratic Koyro]

Good. Hopefully the criminal vermin will get whats coming to them.

I don't see why people hate whaling so much...

Because it's murder of an intelligent life form for no actual reason beyond using it for meat that barely anyone eats anymore, and as a puerile way to show their independence from Western norms. The hunt costs more than any profit they make at this point. It's sheer idiocy.
And they're criminals? Depends on which national laws you're abiding by. It's a debatable point, to be sure.

Its not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. A Whale is neither a human, nor is it illegal to kill them in Japan.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Because it's murder of an intelligent life form for no actual reason beyond using it for meat that barely anyone eats anymore, and as a puerile way to show their independence from Western norms. The hunt costs more than any profit they make at this point. It's sheer idiocy.
And they're criminals? Depends on which national laws you're abiding by. It's a debatable point, to be sure.

Its not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being.

Fine, if we're going to be pedants about it, change it to some other word that pleases you more that means functionally the same thing.
It still changes nothing about what I meant, and both of us know it. Whales are being slaughtered for no good reason.

A Whale is neither a human, nor is it illegal to kill them in Japan.

It is technically illegal under international laws that Japan is nominally signed to. However, Japan gets away with it under the "scientific research" loophole that allows whales to be killed for research. In 40 years, no significant cetacean research has come out of Japan, but whalemeat keeps showing up on the market. Which is not allowed under those conventions.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Good. In the spirit of this development these fools should be hung by the neck until dead.

[Wisconsin9]

(Image)

OK, I laughed.

Aw, nobody liked it when I made that reference.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Good. In the spirit of this development these fools should be hung by the neck until dead.

See now, I'll restate what I said before:
If they'd done something bad, this might actually be justified. As it stands, it just kinda sounds like you've got a punishment fetish.

[Democratic Koyro]

Good. In the spirit of this development these fools should be hung by the neck until dead.

See now, I'll restate what I said before:
If they'd done something bad, this might actually be justified. As it stands, it just kinda sounds like you've got a punishment fetish.

"Sea Shepherd operations have included interdiction against commercial fishing, shark poaching and finning, seal hunting, and whaling."

"The rival environmental group maintains Sea Shepherd is a violent organization whose tactics may endanger the lives of fishermen and whalers" (random wikipedia quote from Sea Shepherd page).

Seem like violent criminals too me. The lives of humans are infinitely more valuable than the lives of whales and fish. They should be treated like any other group of pirates.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Good. In the spirit of this development these fools should be hung by the neck until dead.

See now, I'll restate what I said before:
If they'd done something bad, this might actually be justified. As it stands, it just kinda sounds like you've got a punishment fetish.

They're attacking ships and endangering human life without any authority because it pleases them. Scum. Utter scum. Sink them.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

See now, I'll restate what I said before:
If they'd done something bad, this might actually be justified. As it stands, it just kinda sounds like you've got a punishment fetish.

"Sea Shepherd operations have included interdiction against commercial fishing, shark poaching and finning, seal hunting, and whaling."

"The rival environmental group maintains Sea Shepherd is a violent organization whose tactics may endanger the lives of fishermen and whalers" (random wikipedia quote from Sea Shepherd page).

Random Wiki quotes from the whalers themselves.
Truly damning evidence.
Really?

Seem like violent criminals too me.

Well, when you exclusively treat one side as gospel and don't even pretend to consider the issue objectively, I guess thing really are that simple. I mean, come on, all the proof you needed was a wiki quote that was explicitly said to be one-sided BY THE ARTICLE ITSELF? It's like quoting a press release in a product review.

The lives of humans are infinitely more valuable than the lives of whales and fish.

Depends on the human, honestly.
And this isn't some war between the humans and whales where we have to choose to save human or whale lives. Humans are going out to kill whales for no good reason. This nearly drove whales to extinction. Thus, they must be stopped, for a whole bevy of economic, environmental, moral reasons...take your pick. There are no adequate enforcement mechanisms to prevent the unlawful killing (as no research is going on, obviously), so SS takes it on themselves.
I also find it hilarious how your heart bleeds for the poor innocent whalers, but you could give less of a shit about the fact that a lot of them are tied to major organized crime groups in Japan. They have to be, to move the whale meat.
Meanwhile, they're all covered in the blood of an intelligent species that has done nothing to warrant such treatment. It veers from moronically misguided at best to actively bloodthirsty on the other.

They should be treated like any other group of pirates.

Except according to the Merriam-Webster definition (which I trust is fairly universally trusted), they aren't even pirates under the definition. If they were robbing the ships, they would be. They don't.
The whole verdict here is a joke, honestly. It wouldn't be hard to overturn, but it doesn't even matter anyway, it doesn't change anything.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

See now, I'll restate what I said before:
If they'd done something bad, this might actually be justified. As it stands, it just kinda sounds like you've got a punishment fetish.

They're attacking ships and endangering human life without any authority because it pleases them. Scum. Utter scum. Sink them.

They're attacking mobile slaughterhouses operating illegally, killing intelligent species for no good reason in waters that the slaughterhouses are not allowed to be in. "Endangering human life"? Yeah, I'm not too concerned about the big bad environmentalists hurting the poor widdle whalers: they operate in fleets, they have lifeboats, they knew what they're getting into, and their managers know what they're doing is illegal. They knew the risks. All they have to do is stop whaling, and everything ends peacefully. Nobody in Japan cares about whalemeat anymore (no one under the age of 60, anyway), so it's not any great sacrifice. It's barely a sacrifice at all, really.
They also have some authorized authority under Australian law (as I understand) as well as part of the UN charter dealing with whaling and maritime law.
If that's not a noble cause, I'm not sure what is.

Again, if the Japanese government had some pressing need - not want or half-thought-out whim, a need - to whale, you might have an argument. As it is, you're defending the criminal Japanese government here, which is flouting the UN laws it signed.

[New Chalcedon]

See now, I'll restate what I said before:
If they'd done something bad, this might actually be justified. As it stands, it just kinda sounds like you've got a punishment fetish.

"Sea Shepherd operations have included interdiction against commercial fishing, shark poaching and finning, seal hunting, and whaling."

"The rival environmental group maintains Sea Shepherd is a violent organization whose tactics may endanger the lives of fishermen and whalers" (random wikipedia quote from Sea Shepherd page).

Seem like violent criminals too me. The lives of humans are infinitely more valuable than the lives of whales and fish. They should be treated like any other group of pirates.

First, what's your source?

Second, seal hunting is illegal - except under carefully controlled terms - everywhere, even in Japan. Poaching (of sharks or any other creature) is by definition illegal, and I want to see evidence of their operations against commercial fishing - including the nature of the fishing involved.

Third, your assertion that Sea Shepherd is a violent organisation which endangers human life has two statements in it which require proof. You provide none.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

"Sea Shepherd operations have included interdiction against commercial fishing, shark poaching and finning, seal hunting, and whaling."

"The rival environmental group maintains Sea Shepherd is a violent organization whose tactics may endanger the lives of fishermen and whalers" (random wikipedia quote from Sea Shepherd page).

Seem like violent criminals too me. The lives of humans are infinitely more valuable than the lives of whales and fish. They should be treated like any other group of pirates.

First, what's your source?

Second, seal hunting is illegal - except under carefully controlled terms - everywhere, even in Japan. Poaching (of sharks or any other creature) is by definition illegal, and I want to see evidence of their operations against commercial fishing - including the nature of the fishing involved.

Third, your assertion that Sea Shepherd is a violent organisation which endangers human life has two statements in it which require proof. You provide none.

Oh, he gave us a source and proof - one wiki quote, that was itself a quote from the whalers.
So you know it's unbiased!

[New Octopucta]

When you're trying to stop whaling by sinking the whaling ships and thereby killing the people on them, then yes you're a fucking menace.

Sinking =/= killing. All of those ram/kill markings on the Sea Shepherd boats were achieved nonlethally. You ever hear of...lifeboats? Or the fact that these whaling vessels almost always sail in groups, so the likelihood of actual drowning is basically nil?
If they were trying to kill people, then they wouldn't pussyfoot around with ramming. Basic logic.[/quote]
I didn't convey my point well enough. If there weren't other boats there to rescue the now stranded sailors, they would die. Lifeboats are a ton of good when no one knows your boat sank and you're a week+ from anywhere. Shooting someone in a hospital is as much a crime as shooting them in the wilderness.

Incompetence and mistaken identity don't equal piracy.

First of all, piracy is robbery or illegal violence at sea, and attacking a search and rescue operation simply because someone you don't like is running it seems like illegal violence to me. Second, I'm not saying they're pirates; the word I used was menace, which this also counts as. If you're attacking a lifesaving operation and fail to provide assistance after doing so, then all of the good intentions in the world don't matter.

Like what? Politely asking the Japanese to stop (because that's about all anyone cares to do)? Yeah, that's worked for the last 40 years. Oh wait, it hasn't.
Sometimes, to make an omelet, you've gotta break a few eggs, and I have little sympathy for Japanese whalers massacring intelligent mammals out of some bizarre, pointless, atavistic nationalism.

How about applying political and economic pressure? That's something that many sane anti-whaling groups are trying to get happening. It certainly doesn't help that all anti-whaling groups are stuck with looking like eco-terrorists because of Sea Shepherds. I'd rather see economic and political eggs broken than human lives put at risk so that Sea Shepherds can be big heroes.

More like there are effective ways to go about it, and ineffective ways.
SS has done more than almost anyone else in terms of drawing attention to the issue and making it difficult for the Japanese to just brush the issue aside.

Until you can cite a source indicating the extent to which Sea Shepherds has decreased Japanese whaling efforts, this isn't a discussion of effectiveness. It's a discussion of whether illegally putting human lives at risk to make a point that can be made other ways is an alright thing to do.

[Ermarian]

Branding people as pirates for political purposes is sure to achieve the desired effect. I mean, it did wonders in the war on copyright infringement, didn't it?

[New Chalcedon]

They're attacking ships and endangering human life without any authority because it pleases them. Scum. Utter scum. Sink them.

They're attacking mobile slaughterhouses operating illegally, killing intelligent species for no good reason in waters that the slaughterhouses are not allowed to be in. "Endangering human life"? Yeah, I'm not too concerned about the big bad environmentalists hurting the poor widdle whalers: they operate in fleets, they have lifeboats, they knew what they're getting into, and their managers know what they're doing is illegal. They knew the risks. All they have to do is stop whaling, and everything ends peacefully. Nobody in Japan cares about whalemeat anymore (no one under the age of 60, anyway), so it's not any great sacrifice. It's barely a sacrifice at all, really.
They also have some authorized authority under Australian law (as I understand) as well as part of the UN charter dealing with whaling and maritime law.
If that's not a noble cause, I'm not sure what is.

Again, if the Japanese government had some pressing need - not want or half-thought-out whim, a need - to whale, you might have an argument. As it is, you're defending the criminal Japanese government here, which is flouting the UN laws it signed.

If there was anything resembling a "longstanding cultural affinity for whaling", Japan might even have a point. But first, that only requires a few largely ceremonial kills each year, and second, the Albany whaling station in WA was operating long before any Japanese whalers showed up south of Taiwan, let alone off Heard & MacDonald Islands.

If Japanese whalers feel the need to operate, then let them do so in Japanese waters.

Oh, wait. They've already hunted the whales out of those waters with their overuse of the natural resource, and now they want to do it everywhere else, too.

Fuck that shit.

[Tel]

Wait. O_O Has America actually done something I can agree with? I need to double check the sources of this. That or I need to re consider my drinking habits.

Put away the scotch, lad. You've missed a'lo' in tha' drunken haze o'yer's.

[Dumb Ideologies]

They're attacking ships and endangering human life without any authority because it pleases them. Scum. Utter scum. Sink them.

They're attacking mobile slaughterhouses operating illegally, killing intelligent species for no good reason in waters that they're not allowed to be in.

If I'm a passerby, do I have a right to shoot someone who is littering?

"Endangering human life"? Yeah, I'm not too concerned about the big bad environmentalists hurting the poor widdle whalers, they operate in fleets, they have lifeboats, they knew what they're getting into, and their managers know what they're doing is illegal.

Vigilante "justice" is not justice. They are emotionally-driven extremists, lacking neutrality and the legal system's capacity to level-headedly identify.

"They also have some authorized authority under Australian law (as I understand) as well as part of the UN charter dealing with whaling and maritime law.

They haven't been licensed as a law-enforcement agency. Stop dodging.

It's not being enforced because while it is de jure illegal, those who have made it so don't care sufficiently to actually enforce it in practice. Whaling should not be illegal. It's a cultural tradition and there is no moral basis for banning it given the global industry in harvesting of animals for meat products across the world. It isn't being enforced because it is an idiotic notion. Supporting an idiotic law enforced by vigilantes is an utterly ridiculous position.

[The balkens]

Ok I just got up and look what we have here! A thread about.....sea shepards....god damn it.
Seriously? I may care only the slightest about whaling.
The only reason I know about it at all Is that really fucking dumb excuse for a tv show called "whale wars".
Whaling is a part of Japanese culture, just like charging into machinegun fire.
However if they exhaust their resources then that's their own damn fault.
I'm not a "SAVE TEH WHALEZ" guy, nor am I "Fuck you dolphin and whale"
.....I rest my case.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

They're attacking mobile slaughterhouses operating illegally, killing intelligent species for no good reason in waters that they're not allowed to be in.

If I'm a passerby, do I have a right to shoot someone who is littering?

If it's provided for in the law, sure you do.
The UN , under the World Charter for Nature, allows Sea Shepherd and other independent organizations the authority to act on behalf of UN law, and to enforce it, as there is no centralized body under the UN to enforce it.

"Endangering human life"? Yeah, I'm not too concerned about the big bad environmentalists hurting the poor widdle whalers, they operate in fleets, they have lifeboats, they knew what they're getting into, and their managers know what they're doing is illegal.

Vigilante "justice" is not justice.

According to the whaling/maritime law agreements under the UN, they aren't vigilantes. They aren't enforcing their own law; they're enforcing UN law, which as actually provided for in the charters.

They are emotionally-driven

Unprovable.

extremists, lacking neutrality and the legal system's capacity to level-headedly identify.

They have as much neutrality as the UN laws can give them, because that's all they're enforcing.

"They also have some authorized authority under Australian law (as I understand) as well as part of the UN charter dealing with whaling and maritime law.

They haven't been licensed as a law-enforcement agency. Stop dodging.

I think I've set the facts straight. they don't need to be licensed as long as they abide.

It's not being enforced because while it is de jure illegal, those who have made it so don't care sufficiently to actually enforce it in practice. Whaling should not be illegal.

Are you fucking kidding me?
the last time this happened, it wasn't a matter of culture, it was a matter of literally killing these animals until they were all gone. All of them.

It's a cultural tradition and there is no moral basis for banning it given the global industry in harvesting of animals for meat products across the world.

Except people can farm cows far easier than they can farm whales. Easier just to kill 'em all, just like the last time.
You forget this happened once before, and it was nearly an irrecoverable ecological catastrophe. Nobody needs whaling anymore. We've moved on. We shouldn't be aspiring to go back to cultural practices no one needs, because "it's culture". Culture can be harmful and wrong.

It isn't being enforced because it is an idiotic notion.

It's not being enforced because the UN is not good at providing enforcing bodies.

Supporting an idiotic law enforced by vigilantes is an utterly ridiculous position.

...Or we could just go with the "EVERYBODY BUT ME IS AN IDIOT" line, if it makes you happy.

The supreme irony is, Sea Shepherd has at the very least a comparable claim to those of the Japanese when it comes to the legality of what they're doing.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Sinking =/= killing. All of those ram/kill markings on the Sea Shepherd boats were achieved nonlethally. You ever hear of...lifeboats? Or the fact that these whaling vessels almost always sail in groups, so the likelihood of actual drowning is basically nil?
If they were trying to kill people, then they wouldn't pussyfoot around with ramming. Basic logic.

I didn't convey my point well enough. If there weren't other boats there to rescue the now stranded sailors, they would die.

Except there are, so it's immaterial.
Nobody on SS is setting out to kill people.
And people have survived on lifeboats for weeks and months in far less technologically advanced times than we live in now.

Lifeboats are a ton of good when no one knows your boat sank and you're a week+ from anywhere.

Umm...They'd know if a boat sank REALLY fast. They do have communications on these things, you know. This isn't WW2, where boats just vanish due to enemy action and no one knows what happened for months or years.

Shooting someone in a hospital is as much a crime as shooting them in the wilderness.

And if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle.

Incompetence and mistaken identity don't equal piracy.

First of all, piracy is robbery or illegal violence at sea,

M-Web says just robbery.

and attacking a search and rescue operation simply because someone you don't like is running it seems like illegal violence to me.

Gonna need a source here as to that being their exact motivation.

Second, I'm not saying they're pirates;

...You kinda just did.

the word I used was menace, which this also counts as.

So...why even bother to differentiate?

If you're attacking a lifesaving operation and fail to provide assistance after doing so, then all of the good intentions in the world don't matter.

Again, source. I get the feeling you're reading a lot into this.

Like what? Politely asking the Japanese to stop (because that's about all anyone cares to do)? Yeah, that's worked for the last 40 years. Oh wait, it hasn't.
Sometimes, to make an omelet, you've gotta break a few eggs, and I have little sympathy for Japanese whalers massacring intelligent mammals out of some bizarre, pointless, atavistic nationalism.

How about applying political and economic pressure?

Nobody cares enough, apparently. The fact there's a loophole built into the agreement Japan signed doesn't help much.

That's something that many sane anti-whaling groups are trying to get happening.

Well, all the sane anti-whaling groups seem to be doing jack squat in practicality. At least SS can fuck up the slaughterhouses at sea. Better than nothing.

It certainly doesn't help that all anti-whaling groups are stuck with looking like eco-terrorists because of Sea Shepherds.

They've lasted 40 years with Watson, and their situation has steadily improved. He's the easiest person in the world to disavow.

I'd rather see economic and political eggs broken than human lives put at risk so that Sea Shepherds can be big heroes.

I'd rather see effective action taken then let a nation break the law for its own selfish needs that aren't even really needs.

More like there are effective ways to go about it, and ineffective ways.
SS has done more than almost anyone else in terms of drawing attention to the issue and making it difficult for the Japanese to just brush the issue aside.

Until you can cite a source indicating the extent to which Sea Shepherds has decreased Japanese whaling efforts, this isn't a discussion of effectiveness.

Oh, don't be obtuse. You saw the kill/ram markings. There's your proof right there.

It's a discussion of whether illegally putting human lives at risk to make a point that can be made other ways is an alright thing to do.

You're going to have to prove it's illegal in about four different ways before it can become objective fact, because that's how many systems of national and international law you're dealing with here. You cannot make that statement off the cuff, because it's not true according to all the players.

[DuThaal Craftworld]

Sink the Sea Shepherd ship in the middle of the night with a breaching charge to the engine room, repeat with the Japanese ships. The Japanese should whale in their own waters. Of course, they KILLED ALL OF THE WHALES THAT LIVED THERE, so fuck that noise. Without any ships, no one can whale, and no one can throw rancid butter, right?

[Democratic Koyro]

They're attacking mobile slaughterhouses operating illegally, killing intelligent species for no good reason in waters that they're not allowed to be in.

If I'm a passerby, do I have a right to shoot someone who is littering?

"Endangering human life"? Yeah, I'm not too concerned about the big bad environmentalists hurting the poor widdle whalers, they operate in fleets, they have lifeboats, they knew what they're getting into, and their managers know what they're doing is illegal.

Vigilante "justice" is not justice. They are emotionally-driven extremists, lacking neutrality and the legal system's capacity to level-headedly identify.

"They also have some authorized authority under Australian law (as I understand) as well as part of the UN charter dealing with whaling and maritime law.

They haven't been licensed as a law-enforcement agency. Stop dodging.

It's not being enforced because while it is de jure illegal, those who have made it so don't care sufficiently to actually enforce it in practice. Whaling should not be illegal. It's a cultural tradition and there is no moral basis for banning it given the global industry in harvesting of animals for meat products across the world. It isn't being enforced because it is an idiotic notion. Supporting an idiotic law enforced by vigilantes is an utterly ridiculous position.

Perhaps they should create a classification of Whale Research Ship that is allowed to carry armaments to defend themselves against pirates and eco-terrorists? (they should do the same to regular commercial shipping that has to go through Somalia-like areas, but thats a different discussion).

Thinking of becoming a supporter of the ICR, its only $21 dollars a year.