A Right To Healthcare?

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Arturickia
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A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Arturickia » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:07 am

I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.

Healthcare, by it's nature, is a service provided by individuals to other individuals. Is there another situation in which the citizenry has an intrinsic claim to the labor of other citizens?

The nearest comparison I could envision would be law enforcement. Since the government has, as it's primary function, the duty to uphold the law, one could be said to have a "right" to law enforcement. As such, the government employs police officers. Theoretically, if a critical shortage of police officers occurred, resulting in the denial of the "right" to law enforcement, then the national guard could be deployed. If there was a lack of national guardsmen, then a draft could be instituted, and able-bodied men could be legally compelled to take up the uniform and weaponry required (presumably with some exceptions for "consciensious objectors").

So, if a right to healthcare is accepted as a responsibility of government, could areas with a shortage of doctors and nurses be subjected to a medical draft?

Police are generally forbidden from holding a strike to protest for better wages and benefits. A police strike would, of course, place the public in serious danger.

How, then would proper compensation for medical workers be determined? Theoretically, doctors and nurses could remain private citizens and bill the government whatever amount they saw fit, but such a system would fall apart quickly. Now, if medical workers become unionized government employees, they would presumably be limited in their bargaining power, since a strike of doctors would place the public, again, in serious danger.

Speaking of compensation... A move towards nationalizing health care is generally based on the assumption that health care is too expensive. Presumably, doctors and nurses would face a pay cut once they became employees of the taxpayers who felt they were overcharging for their services. Logically, the government cannot sustainably pay medical professionals as much as, or more than, they were making in the private sector if they were initially charging more than the majority of taxpayers could afford. With the profit motive reduced, logically the number of people looking to become doctors will decline. With patients split among fewer medical professionals, quality of care declines. How does the government remedy this?

How shall the government address or determine "abuse" of a government health care system? In the private sector, a hypochondriac who goes to the doctor every time he sneezes is only costing himself money. In a public system, he's a drain on the public treasury. If we limit doctor exams to "legitimate visits," don't we need a doctor exam to determine if the visit is legitimate?

It would seem that personal freedoms would rapidly come under assault. Healthy and fit taxpayers will quickly protest seeing their tax dollars spent on smokers, drinkers, drug-users, the obese, and the promiscuous. But, short of intense government surveillance, how can you be sure who doing what to harm their health?

Speaking of health in general, doesn't a right to healthcare imply a right to all basic needs? It certainly doesn't help you to have a cardiac bypass available to you if have no food or are dying of exposure. If it is to be a right, does it not also have to be a condition of citizenship, rather than employment? Or is it a right for all "workers?" If the right is available exclusively to workers, then what about the temporarily unemployed? If it covers you during periods of unemployment, why go back to work? What about the disabled? If it includes the disabled, what if someone deliberately cripples themself?

It simply seems to me that an intrinsic right to someone else's labor presents an impossible obligation unless society is reorganized into a system where everyone is compelled into a certain role and all aspects of civil life are controlled to predict and meet the needs of the citizens therein.

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Colonic Immigration
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Colonic Immigration » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:11 am

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.


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Newer Burmecia
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Newer Burmecia » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:22 am

All I will say is that, coming from a country which has actually nationalised almost the entire health industry (as opposed to the single-payer system proposed in the USA), universal healthcare works. It's not perfect, granted, but everybody gets access to quality health care regardless of ability to pay with less per capita public spending than the USA does.

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Rambhutan
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Rambhutan » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:24 am

Depends whether the government wants a workforce and army made up of wheezing, knock-kneed, weaklings. Same goes for education, does a country really wants a workforce made up of people who cannot read or write and think of science as evil sorcery? For a country to be competitive and successful a government needs to invest in the health and education of its citizens. After all the government is there to serve the people not the other way around.
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Parthenon » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:29 am

Totally agree with you OP, don't expect any answers to your questions from the socialized medicine crowd however. When basic questions are posed that look at such a system from a fiscal/management perspective they are usually dodged with straw men arguments on how you hate the poor (even though they already receive billions in tax dollars from medicaid, social security, S-CHIP, and every other entitlement under the sun).
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Cherry Sours
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Cherry Sours » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:47 am

Considering these questions have already been answered by all the other national medicine countries out there, your OP reeks of self-imposed blinders.

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Arturickia
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Arturickia » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:03 am

Cherry Sours wrote:Considering these questions have already been answered by all the other national medicine countries out there, your OP reeks of self-imposed blinders.


But, my questions haven't been answered. From what I've read, the systems that try hardest to assure a right to health and other social welfare systems say that their systems are nearing bankruptcy (Canada, Britain, and France) or are resorting to rationing of care (several nordic nations), which seems directly contradictory to a "right" to health care. Even the presumably inadequate American systems of MediCare and MedicAid have massive, unfunded liabilities, and the current administration has promised to expand government provided health care.

So, all of these systems are presently functioning to some degree, but seem unsustainable in their present forms over a long term, inevitably running into a crisis where funding or medical staff run low. So, they will have to change in some drastic fashion, which will, I think, require a considerable amount of very direct control and compulsion by the government.

So, again, am I missing something? Or does a right to someone else's labor necessitate that the government take a very intimate level of control over the life of the individual?

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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby PartyPeoples » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:13 am

Arturickia wrote:But, my questions haven't been answered. From what I've read, the systems that try hardest to assure a right to health and other social welfare systems say that their systems are nearing bankruptcy (Canada, Britain, and France) or are resorting to rationing of care (several nordic nations), which seems directly contradictory to a "right" to health care. Even the presumably inadequate American systems of MediCare and MedicAid have massive, unfunded liabilities, and the current administration has promised to expand government provided health care.

So, all of these systems are presently functioning to some degree, but seem unsustainable in their present forms over a long term, inevitably running into a crisis where funding or medical staff run low. So, they will have to change in some drastic fashion, which will, I think, require a considerable amount of very direct control and compulsion by the government.

So, again, am I missing something? Or does a right to someone else's labor necessitate that the government take a very intimate level of control over the life of the individual?



The basic premise of universal healthcare is that people dying because they can't afford to see a Doctor or buy medicines is plain wrong - yes, it's an expensive business but it ensures medical treatment for everybody regardless of their position in life. It's just the right thing to do.

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The Alma Mater
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:26 am

PartyPeoples wrote:The basic premise of universal healthcare is that people dying because they can't afford to see a Doctor or buy medicines is plain wrong - yes, it's an expensive business but it ensures medical treatment for everybody regardless of their position in life. It's just the right thing to do.


And, as a bonus, it seems to be cheaper for society as a whole. So it is also the capitalist thing to do.
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Dazchan
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Dazchan » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:54 am

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.


I agree with the first replier: :palm:

Arturickia wrote:Healthcare, by it's nature, is a service provided by individuals to other individuals. Is there another situation in which the citizenry has an intrinsic claim to the labor of other citizens?


The rights to education and legal representation come to mind instantly. I'm sure if I thought about it, I could produce a longer list.

Arturickia wrote:So, if a right to healthcare is accepted as a responsibility of government, could areas with a shortage of doctors and nurses be subjected to a medical draft?


Nope. For the same reason there's no educational draft or lawyer draft. Your strawman has no power here.

Arturickia wrote:Police are generally forbidden from holding a strike to protest for better wages and benefits.


Hmm... Thank goodness I live in a country where freedom is actually valued.

Arturickia wrote:How, then would proper compensation for medical workers be determined?


Same way it is in the rest of the civilised world. I don't feel the need to answer questions that can be answered by (assuming you're in the US) driving a couple of hours north.

Arturickia wrote:Theoretically, doctors and nurses could remain private citizens and bill the government whatever amount they saw fit, but such a system would fall apart quickly.


Been going for over a century here. Define "quickly".

Arturickia wrote:Now, if medical workers become unionized government employees, they would presumably be limited in their bargaining power, since a strike of doctors would place the public, again, in serious danger.


1. Most doctors here aren't government employees. They bill the government.
2. Government employee != union
3. You're basing your entire argument on a non-existent premise.

To summarise, your strawman is made of fail. It's a failman.

Arturickia wrote:Speaking of compensation... A move towards nationalizing health care is generally based on the assumption that health care is too expensive. Presumably, doctors and nurses would face a pay cut once they became employees of the taxpayers who felt they were overcharging for their services.


I'm pretty sure that our doctors aren't joining the queues for soup kitchens. In fact, they seem downright well-off.

Oh wait, you're basing this on your ridiculous premise that doctors would become employees of the government. :palm:

Arturickia wrote:Logically, the government cannot sustainably pay medical professionals as much as, or more than, they were making in the private sector if they were initially charging more than the majority of taxpayers could afford. With the profit motive reduced, logically the number of people looking to become doctors will decline. With patients split among fewer medical professionals, quality of care declines. How does the government remedy this?


No shortage of doctors here. Quite frankly, I think quality of care would be higher with doctors who were driven by desire to help rather than profit, but that's just me.

Arturickia wrote:How shall the government address or determine "abuse" of a government health care system? In the private sector, a hypochondriac who goes to the doctor every time he sneezes is only costing himself money. In a public system, he's a drain on the public treasury. If we limit doctor exams to "legitimate visits," don't we need a doctor exam to determine if the visit is legitimate?


I think you're making a bigger issue of hypochondriacs than it really is.

Arturickia wrote:It would seem that personal freedoms would rapidly come under assault.


Only because you fail to look at global examples and instead try to implement something that a retarded four-year-old could tell you is a bad idea.

Arturickia wrote:Healthy and fit taxpayers will quickly protest seeing their tax dollars spent on smokers, drinkers, drug-users, the obese, and the promiscuous.


Evidence?

Arturickia wrote:Speaking of health in general, doesn't a right to healthcare imply a right to all basic needs?


Only in the same way that a right to freedom of religion implies a theocracy.

Arturickia wrote:It certainly doesn't help you to have a cardiac bypass available to you if have no food or are dying of exposure.


Nor does having access to a school help you in that example. Do you oppose public education?

Arturickia wrote:If it is to be a right, does it not also have to be a condition of citizenship, rather than employment?


Yes.

Arturickia wrote:Or is it a right for all "workers?" If the right is available exclusively to workers, then what about the temporarily unemployed?


Answering your own questions shows you're not really interested in answers.

Arturickia wrote:If it covers you during periods of unemployment, why go back to work?


Umm... social contract? Self identity? The intrinsic desire in 99.99999% of the population to not sit around watching The Young and the Restless all day?

Free health = unemployment. That's a new one. A moronic one, but new nonetheless.

Arturickia wrote: What about the disabled? If it includes the disabled, what if someone deliberately cripples themself?


I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at that one.

Arturickia wrote:It simply seems to me that an intrinsic right to someone else's labor presents an impossible obligation unless society is reorganized into a system where everyone is compelled into a certain role and all aspects of civil life are controlled to predict and meet the needs of the citizens therein.


It seems to me that you're talking out of the wrong orifice and haven't even looked at the successful health systems of other countries before you bothered to formulate your opinion.

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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Hetairos » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:08 am

Arturickia wrote:But, my questions haven't been answered. From what I've read, the systems that try hardest to assure a right to health and other social welfare systems say that their systems are nearing bankruptcy (Canada, Britain, and France).

Surely that's a good thing--we don't want government companies to have large amounts of surplus cash, because the people are paying for it. The NHS has been around for 60 years, so it must be working.

or are resorting to rationing of care (several nordic nations), which seems directly contradictory to a "right" to health care. Even the presumably inadequate American systems of MediCare and MedicAid have massive, unfunded liabilities, and the current administration has promised to expand government provided health care.

Only non-essential treatments would be 'rationed'. If you go into an emergency department in a US(A) hospital, wouldn't you or someone else have to pay for it, even if you can't afford it? At least nationalised heathcare doesn't didcriminate against the poor. I don't suppose you would have agreed to the rich people getting priority on the lifeboats on the Titanic, but that's exactly what private healthcare does.

So, all of these systems are presently functioning to some degree, but seem unsustainable in their present forms over a long term, inevitably running into a crisis where funding or medical staff run low.

The NHS has been around for 60 years. Would you call that 'long term'?

So, again, am I missing something? Or does a right to someone else's labor necessitate that the government take a very intimate level of control over the life of the individual?

What do you mean? People arn't forced to have healthcare, or work for a national heathcare provider. Please elaborate.
Last edited by Hetairos on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Alma Mater
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:11 am

Hetairos wrote:The NHS has been around for 60 years..


Stop confusing people with facts. Healthcare for everyone seems socialist, so it can NOT work for years, or be extremely cost effective. If reality disagrees, reality must be wrong !
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Freedomain Radio » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:24 am

Stefan Molyneux, has done a far better job explaining it than I could so if you are interested here are links to his podcasts on healthcare.

Health Care (Part 1) - A 'right' to heath care?
An analysis of the power structures of socialized medicine

Health Care (Part 2) - A 'right' to heath care?
Logical problems with a 'right' to health care

Health Care (Part 3) - A 'right' to heath care?
Practical problems with a 'right' to health care

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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Rambhutan » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:31 am

Freedomain Radio wrote:Stefan Molyneux, has done a far better job explaining it than I could so if you are interested here are links to his podcasts on healthcare.

Health Care (Part 1) - A 'right' to heath care?
An analysis of the power structures of socialized medicine

Health Care (Part 2) - A 'right' to heath care?
Logical problems with a 'right' to health care

Health Care (Part 3) - A 'right' to heath care?
Practical problems with a 'right' to health care


Just what we need, another fuckwitted cult.
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Freedomain Radio » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:35 am

Rambhutan wrote:
Freedomain Radio wrote:Stefan Molyneux, has done a far better job explaining it than I could so if you are interested here are links to his podcasts on healthcare.

Health Care (Part 1) - A 'right' to heath care?
An analysis of the power structures of socialized medicine

Health Care (Part 2) - A 'right' to heath care?
Logical problems with a 'right' to health care

Health Care (Part 3) - A 'right' to heath care?
Practical problems with a 'right' to health care


Just what we need, another fuckwitted cult.


Ah ad hominem attack the admission that your argument does not have any validity.

Please rationally dispute any of the premises or conclusions presented.

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Rambhutan
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Rambhutan » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:39 am

Freedomain Radio wrote:
Rambhutan wrote:
Freedomain Radio wrote:Stefan Molyneux, has done a far better job explaining it than I could so if you are interested here are links to his podcasts on healthcare.

Health Care (Part 1) - A 'right' to heath care?
An analysis of the power structures of socialized medicine

Health Care (Part 2) - A 'right' to heath care?
Logical problems with a 'right' to health care

Health Care (Part 3) - A 'right' to heath care?
Practical problems with a 'right' to health care


Just what we need, another fuckwitted cult.


Ah ad hominem attack the admission that your argument does not have any validity.

Please rationally dispute any of the premises or conclusions presented.


Your nation name appears to be advertising said cult leaders website - think we better check with the Mods on whether that is allowed.
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Arturickia
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Arturickia » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:46 am

Can't listen to podcasts right now... Anyway, a few responses to points... In no particular order...

1. The U.S. does have state run hospitals, MediCare, and MedicAid in addition to some state-based programs. I am not suggesting that they don't serve a purpose, or that they need to be destroyed. Likewise, I am not saying that some level of nationalized/government healthcare is undesirable. My core issue is with the notion of a "right" to healthcare extended to all citizens seeming to place an effectively unfulfillable obligation on any government that is not fully totalitarian in scope.

2. I still think that an asserted right to healthcare implies a right to all basic needs. The purpose of healthcare is to keep you alive, so why is the government obligated to provide you with healthcare if the intent is not to have the government keep people alive?

3. As for people "crippling themselves," I did not mean to suggest some absurdity like a sudden rash of people stabbing themselves in the spinal cord. However, milking disability is a real problem. This is generally done with psychological rather than physical issues. For instance, I know doctors that would put me on disability because I am depressed, since they consider thoughts of suicide to be a symptom of severe depression and I'm a morbid, down kinda guy who has thought about suicide even while dosed to the gills with Prozac, Paxil, Effexor, etc. The fact that I've been working full time and maintaining a fulfilling social life for years would seem to indicate that I'm fully capable of continuing to do so, but that's the system for you.

4. The idea that 99.999999% of people are just hankering to go to work in the morning seems like a drastically optimistic view of human nature.

More later.

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Rambhutan
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Rambhutan » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:52 am

Arturickia wrote:Can't listen to podcasts right now... Anyway, a few responses to points... In no particular order....


I wouldn't bother. Stefan Molyneux is a wannabe L Ron Hubbard.
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Grays Harbor » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:52 am

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.


Because when certain segments of society want to practice their social engineering theories, they make their pet theory over into a "right to (fill in the blank)" as that gets people to notice it without looking too closely at what it really is. Then, once this new "right" is bandied about enough, many begin to actually believe it truly is their "right to (fill in the blank)".










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Arturickia
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Arturickia » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:30 am

5. A lawyer shortage or a teacher shortage is, justifiably or not, a less pressing issue than a doctor shortage in a nation that has declared a "right" to healthcare. The U.S. faces both of the previous problems in various parts. Accused criminals often languish for months or years in waiting for a trial, but there is a lack of public outcry regarding Habeus Corpus rights because... well... probably because the average voter would reply with, "Eh. They're criminals." The teacher shortage is addressed by piling more kids into a classroom, often lowering the quality of education. But, while a teacher can effectively teach 50 students about as well as 51, a doctor cannot simultaneously perform two surgeries.

6. Some nations are, by virtue of factors not common to ALL nations, capable of running a fully nationalized healthcare system capable of saying, "Why yes, we guarantee a right to healthcare here." If I lived in Switzerland, for instance, I'd be demanding some pretty awesome social services. A small nation with a thriving tourist industry, internationally demanded artisan products (Chocolate!), and recognition as the premier hub of international banking really ought to have enough money in the treasury to treat it's citizens darn well. Additionally, Switzerland benefits from a climate that is not conducive to many tropical diseases and has a stricter immigration policy than the U.S.. I'm not saying, "Kill the dirty furriners." I'm just saying that unmonitored mass migration from the Third World is going to bring over some diseases we thought we were done with.

7. Some nations have nationalized healthcare that isn't working so well. A while back, news stories came out of Britain regarding people waiting so long to see a dentist that they were resorting to pulling each others teeth. The shortage of dentists has required them to put up with, for too long, people like the Islamic dentist who was recently castigated (again) for turning away female patients who would not wear a hijab in his presence. The British Parliament passed a law that patients cannot be left in the Emergency Room for more than a certain amount of time without being treated. As a result, patients are being left outside in ambulances which could otherwise be heading out on calls. Long waits to see specialists are resulting in rapidly climbing numbers of people dying from treatable conditions before getting to see the doctor. Clearly, while having a nationalized healthcare system, Britain cannot be said to guarantee a right to healthcare, because people are not receiving it when they need it.

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Rambhutan
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Rambhutan » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:33 am

Arturickia wrote: Some nations have nationalized healthcare that isn't working so well. A while back, news stories came out of Britain regarding people waiting so long to see a dentist that they were resorting to pulling each others teeth. The shortage of dentists has required them to put up with, for too long, people like the Islamic dentist who was recently castigated (again) for turning away female patients who would not wear a hijab in his presence. The British Parliament passed a law that patients cannot be left in the Emergency Room for more than a certain amount of time without being treated. As a result, patients are being left outside in ambulances which could otherwise be heading out on calls. Long waits to see specialists are resulting in rapidly climbing numbers of people dying from treatable conditions before getting to see the doctor. Clearly, while having a nationalized healthcare system, Britain cannot be said to guarantee a right to healthcare, because people are not receiving it when they need it.


You seem to be taking scare stories from the Daily Mail as evidence. Never a good idea.
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Kamsaki » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:37 am

Arturickia wrote:...2. I still think that an asserted right to healthcare implies a right to all basic needs. The purpose of healthcare is to keep you alive, so why is the government obligated to provide you with healthcare if the intent is not to have the government keep people alive?...

I think that's a reasonable train of thought, but it's kind of a reversal of the socialist approach, which starts from the right to life and works backwards. The Western world is in agreement as to the right of people not to have life taken away from them. It is argued that as a consequence, people have the right to not be restricted by the social order in staying alive - that is, that one's poverty or social status should not be an obstacle in matters of life-threatening importance. This results in both welfare provision and standard healthcare for those to whom we grant membership in our society but that struggle to earn.

Personally, I don't think there is a Right to healthcare - at least, not in the positive sense. What I would say, though, is that I wouldn't want to live somewhere I had to leave in order to be seen by a trained medical professional.

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Laerod
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Laerod » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:39 am

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.

Healthcare, by it's nature, is a service provided by individuals to other individuals. Is there another situation in which the citizenry has an intrinsic claim to the labor of other citizens?

You've gone about it wrong. No one has the intrinsic right to healthcare, but everyone has the right to a healthy life. Thereby the right to healthcare is an implied right. People working in healthcare conversely have the right to be duly compensated for their work, but this isn't a contradiction.
From a society's point of view, it's in its own best interests to ensure that the population is healthy and consequently has access to healthcare: Alone maintaining a labor force and preventing unnecessary shortfalls of the employed is enough. Add to that that keeping the population going to doctors is one of the best passive means of controlling diseases and thus protecting society from an epidemic, one has to seriously question the sanity of anyone suggesting health (and by extension healthcare) should not be an intrinsic right.

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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Ashmoria » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:43 am

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.


its a point of view.

since quite a few countries in the world have healthcare as a right i think it must be a valid point of view.

having problems running a government healthcare system does not invalidate the point of view.

is your question really "should the united states officially adopt this point of view"?
whatever

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Arturickia
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Re: A Right To Healthcare?

Postby Arturickia » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:47 am

Rambhutan wrote:
You seem to be taking scare stories from the Daily Mail as evidence. Never a good idea.


http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/23/health-care-around-the-world-great-britain/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/3453628/Britains-healthcare-system-worse-than-Estonias.html

Okay, I'll avoid the Daily Mail as a source.

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