
Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.





Cherry Sours wrote:Considering these questions have already been answered by all the other national medicine countries out there, your OP reeks of self-imposed blinders.

Arturickia wrote:But, my questions haven't been answered. From what I've read, the systems that try hardest to assure a right to health and other social welfare systems say that their systems are nearing bankruptcy (Canada, Britain, and France) or are resorting to rationing of care (several nordic nations), which seems directly contradictory to a "right" to health care. Even the presumably inadequate American systems of MediCare and MedicAid have massive, unfunded liabilities, and the current administration has promised to expand government provided health care.
So, all of these systems are presently functioning to some degree, but seem unsustainable in their present forms over a long term, inevitably running into a crisis where funding or medical staff run low. So, they will have to change in some drastic fashion, which will, I think, require a considerable amount of very direct control and compulsion by the government.
So, again, am I missing something? Or does a right to someone else's labor necessitate that the government take a very intimate level of control over the life of the individual?

PartyPeoples wrote:The basic premise of universal healthcare is that people dying because they can't afford to see a Doctor or buy medicines is plain wrong - yes, it's an expensive business but it ensures medical treatment for everybody regardless of their position in life. It's just the right thing to do.

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.
Arturickia wrote:Healthcare, by it's nature, is a service provided by individuals to other individuals. Is there another situation in which the citizenry has an intrinsic claim to the labor of other citizens?
Arturickia wrote:So, if a right to healthcare is accepted as a responsibility of government, could areas with a shortage of doctors and nurses be subjected to a medical draft?
Arturickia wrote:Police are generally forbidden from holding a strike to protest for better wages and benefits.
Arturickia wrote:How, then would proper compensation for medical workers be determined?
Arturickia wrote:Theoretically, doctors and nurses could remain private citizens and bill the government whatever amount they saw fit, but such a system would fall apart quickly.
Arturickia wrote:Now, if medical workers become unionized government employees, they would presumably be limited in their bargaining power, since a strike of doctors would place the public, again, in serious danger.
Arturickia wrote:Speaking of compensation... A move towards nationalizing health care is generally based on the assumption that health care is too expensive. Presumably, doctors and nurses would face a pay cut once they became employees of the taxpayers who felt they were overcharging for their services.
Arturickia wrote:Logically, the government cannot sustainably pay medical professionals as much as, or more than, they were making in the private sector if they were initially charging more than the majority of taxpayers could afford. With the profit motive reduced, logically the number of people looking to become doctors will decline. With patients split among fewer medical professionals, quality of care declines. How does the government remedy this?
Arturickia wrote:How shall the government address or determine "abuse" of a government health care system? In the private sector, a hypochondriac who goes to the doctor every time he sneezes is only costing himself money. In a public system, he's a drain on the public treasury. If we limit doctor exams to "legitimate visits," don't we need a doctor exam to determine if the visit is legitimate?
Arturickia wrote:It would seem that personal freedoms would rapidly come under assault.
Arturickia wrote:Healthy and fit taxpayers will quickly protest seeing their tax dollars spent on smokers, drinkers, drug-users, the obese, and the promiscuous.
Arturickia wrote:Speaking of health in general, doesn't a right to healthcare imply a right to all basic needs?
Arturickia wrote:It certainly doesn't help you to have a cardiac bypass available to you if have no food or are dying of exposure.
Arturickia wrote:If it is to be a right, does it not also have to be a condition of citizenship, rather than employment?
Arturickia wrote:Or is it a right for all "workers?" If the right is available exclusively to workers, then what about the temporarily unemployed?
Arturickia wrote:If it covers you during periods of unemployment, why go back to work?
Arturickia wrote: What about the disabled? If it includes the disabled, what if someone deliberately cripples themself?
Arturickia wrote:It simply seems to me that an intrinsic right to someone else's labor presents an impossible obligation unless society is reorganized into a system where everyone is compelled into a certain role and all aspects of civil life are controlled to predict and meet the needs of the citizens therein.

Arturickia wrote:But, my questions haven't been answered. From what I've read, the systems that try hardest to assure a right to health and other social welfare systems say that their systems are nearing bankruptcy (Canada, Britain, and France).
or are resorting to rationing of care (several nordic nations), which seems directly contradictory to a "right" to health care. Even the presumably inadequate American systems of MediCare and MedicAid have massive, unfunded liabilities, and the current administration has promised to expand government provided health care.
So, all of these systems are presently functioning to some degree, but seem unsustainable in their present forms over a long term, inevitably running into a crisis where funding or medical staff run low.
So, again, am I missing something? Or does a right to someone else's labor necessitate that the government take a very intimate level of control over the life of the individual?

Hetairos wrote:The NHS has been around for 60 years..


Freedomain Radio wrote:Stefan Molyneux, has done a far better job explaining it than I could so if you are interested here are links to his podcasts on healthcare.
Health Care (Part 1) - A 'right' to heath care?
An analysis of the power structures of socialized medicine
Health Care (Part 2) - A 'right' to heath care?
Logical problems with a 'right' to health care
Health Care (Part 3) - A 'right' to heath care?
Practical problems with a 'right' to health care

Rambhutan wrote:Freedomain Radio wrote:Stefan Molyneux, has done a far better job explaining it than I could so if you are interested here are links to his podcasts on healthcare.
Health Care (Part 1) - A 'right' to heath care?
An analysis of the power structures of socialized medicine
Health Care (Part 2) - A 'right' to heath care?
Logical problems with a 'right' to health care
Health Care (Part 3) - A 'right' to heath care?
Practical problems with a 'right' to health care
Just what we need, another fuckwitted cult.

Freedomain Radio wrote:Rambhutan wrote:Freedomain Radio wrote:Stefan Molyneux, has done a far better job explaining it than I could so if you are interested here are links to his podcasts on healthcare.
Health Care (Part 1) - A 'right' to heath care?
An analysis of the power structures of socialized medicine
Health Care (Part 2) - A 'right' to heath care?
Logical problems with a 'right' to health care
Health Care (Part 3) - A 'right' to heath care?
Practical problems with a 'right' to health care
Just what we need, another fuckwitted cult.
Ah ad hominem attack the admission that your argument does not have any validity.
Please rationally dispute any of the premises or conclusions presented.

Arturickia wrote:Can't listen to podcasts right now... Anyway, a few responses to points... In no particular order....

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.

Arturickia wrote: Some nations have nationalized healthcare that isn't working so well. A while back, news stories came out of Britain regarding people waiting so long to see a dentist that they were resorting to pulling each others teeth. The shortage of dentists has required them to put up with, for too long, people like the Islamic dentist who was recently castigated (again) for turning away female patients who would not wear a hijab in his presence. The British Parliament passed a law that patients cannot be left in the Emergency Room for more than a certain amount of time without being treated. As a result, patients are being left outside in ambulances which could otherwise be heading out on calls. Long waits to see specialists are resulting in rapidly climbing numbers of people dying from treatable conditions before getting to see the doctor. Clearly, while having a nationalized healthcare system, Britain cannot be said to guarantee a right to healthcare, because people are not receiving it when they need it.
Arturickia wrote:...2. I still think that an asserted right to healthcare implies a right to all basic needs. The purpose of healthcare is to keep you alive, so why is the government obligated to provide you with healthcare if the intent is not to have the government keep people alive?...

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.
Healthcare, by it's nature, is a service provided by individuals to other individuals. Is there another situation in which the citizenry has an intrinsic claim to the labor of other citizens?

Arturickia wrote:I am confused by the notion that any person or people could have a "right" to healthcare.
Rambhutan wrote:
You seem to be taking scare stories from the Daily Mail as evidence. Never a good idea.
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