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Does Voting Allow You To Express Yourself?

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Xerographica
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Does Voting Allow You To Express Yourself?

Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:30 pm

Let's play a game! Please copy and paste the following sentence into your reply and fill in the blank.

"I'd give my left nut for _______________"

Whoever knows the equivalent expression for the ladies...please speak up!

Is this a silly game? Superficially it is...but understanding the significance of this game is of the utmost importance.

In my last thread...Why Can't Taxes Be Voluntary?...way too many of you rejected the preference revelation value of tax choice by arguing that voting allows citizens to express their preferences. And I'm sure many of you would make the argument that campaign contributions should be limited.

Voting, undoubtedly, allows you to express your preferences. Unfortunately, it does not allow you to express the true intensity of your preferences. Consider this list of intensity ranking...sorted from least intense to most intense...

1. Voting
2. Volunteering
3. Donating
4. Self-immolating

Clearly, the more you are willing to sacrifice, the greater the intensity of your preferences.

But does it really matter how badly you want something? Does it really matter that you'd truly give your left nut for something? Does it truly matter what you would do for a Klondike bar?

Of course it matters. How else would we be able to determine how society's limited resources should be used?

Take gun control for example. How much of society's limited resources should be used to try and prevent massacres at schools? Can we all agree that it would be absurd to use ALL of society's limited resources to prevent massacres at schools? Yes?

What else can we agree on? Would it be absurd to believe somebody's answer if they only offered to sacrifice other people's nuts? "Well...see that guy over there? I'd give his left nut to try and prevent school shootings. Heck, I'd give 100 other guys' left nuts! Make it 1000! That's how much I care about the issue!!!"

Do we really want to know exactly how much of society's limited resources should be used to try and prevent school shootings? Of course...because those resources have to come from somewhere. Something else we value has to be sacrificed. And right now our political system is the epitome of absurdity because all we do is offer each others' left nuts to be sacrificed.

Liberal: Sacrifice national defense! How many nuclear bombs do we really need!
Conservative: Sacrifice welfare! Sacrifice public healthcare! Sacrifice public education!
Libertarian: Sacrifice everything but national defense, the courts and the police!

And then we wonder why, yet again, we're confronted with a fiscal cliff.

Without the intensity of your preferences...without your decision to sacrifice your own left nut...there is no efficient allocation of society's limited resources. We'll end up with too many tanks and too many school shootings...too many soldiers and not enough teachers...too many lawyers and not enough doctors....too much pollution and not enough renewable energy...too much debt and too little to show for it.

That's why it all boils down to the benefit principle...

Until people are made to bear the full costs of their decisions, those decisions are unlikely to be socially sound, in this as in other areas of public policy. - Richard Bird

Are you willing to give your left nut to try and prevent school shootings? Are you willing to give your left nut to try and protect the environment? Are you willing to give your left nut to try and bring about world peace?

In other words...are you willing to put your left nut...errr...money...where your mouth is?

Seriously though...we are infinitely better off when society's limited resources are efficiently allocated.

Is it fair though? Is it fair that rich people can shout louder than poor people? Of course it's fair! Rich people didn't get rich on their own...WE, THE PEOPLE...made them rich. All of us reached into our pockets...we determined the intensity of our preferences...and then we paid for the things that we benefit from. When a ton of us agree that the same thing is beneficial...the person responsible for producing that thing becomes rich.

Imagine how absurd it would be the other way around. A kid walks into a school, shoots people...and then 100,000,000 people each give him a dollar. That would be a non sequitur...because it really really really wouldn't match the public's preferences any more than being shot would match the victims' preferences. Most of us, know, deep down, that it's really wrong to disregard the preferences of others...yet...the public sector disregards the intensity of our preferences...which is exactly why it's a public non sequitur.

The market is the opposite of a non sequitur because it allows each and every one of us to reward and encourage those who respect and recognize our preferences. We have the freedom to positively reinforce their behavior. That's something that my very favorite Crooked Timber liberal, John Holbo, doesn't quite grasp...

Hayek may be guilty of nothing worse: he admires economic actors of a certain sort more than other people. He maximizes freedom for them, while genuinely thinking he is maximizing it for everyone.

Hayek, on his own, maximizes freedom for certain economic actors? No, no, no...no way. That's not at all how the market works. The market works...it really really really works...because each one of us can use our dollars to reward the people who maximize OUR own freedom.

Take this guy for example...

I'm a millionaire, I'm a multi-millionaire. I'm filthy rich. You know why I'm a multi-millionaire? 'Cause multi-millions like what I do. That's pretty good, isn't it? - Michael Moore

Dollar voting for Michael Moore means that you're giving him more economic freedom...but only because he helps increase your own freedom. He does so by giving you an option that you value enough to sacrifice for. Therefore, by giving you a "better" option...he helps to increase your freedom.

Do I want you to stop dollar voting for him though? Yes. Do I value your freedom to dollar vote for people that are selling you lies? Yes. Why? Because maybe you know something that I don't. But, if you really want lies...then just give your money to Vermin Supreme! I love that guy...he'll give you lies for less. In other words...he'll give you far more bang for your buck. If lies are your thing...then you might as well get them at a discount.

The truth is that we all know something that nobody else knows...we know our values...which are subjective. So if you genuinely want to determine exactly how much of society's limited resources should be spent on trying to prevent school shootings...then allow taxpayers to put their taxes where their hearts are. Let's see if their actions match their words. Let's see exactly how Michael Moore spends his tax dollars in the public sector.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Your tax thread ignored the fact that that's really not how taxes are meant to work. Allowing people to vote with their wallets like that turns a representative democracy that distributes its income according to the needs of the government into an plutarchy where the rich decide what gets well-funded and what goes broke.

You also fail to take into consideration the restricted nature of the market through necessity and ignorance.

In other words, you're defending a theoretical oligarchy because the rich are better than us. Captain Capitalism and the Free Marketeers, unite!
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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:47 pm

"you to stop making the same thread over and over."
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:50 pm

Wikkiwallana wrote:"you to stop making the same thread over and over."

The least he could do is ... I know, make a thread with several wall o' text posts on different subjects, and then just link back to those. Think of the time saved!
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:52 pm

Wikkiwallana wrote:"you to stop making the same thread over and over."

If I make the same thread over and over...then why do you keep reading my threads? Ohhhh...you really like what I write! I know the truth hurts...but it will set you free.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:55 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Wikkiwallana wrote:"you to stop making the same thread over and over."

The least he could do is ... I know, make a thread with several wall o' text posts on different subjects, and then just link back to those. Think of the time saved!

I used to just link to my blog...but then you guys all expressed your preference for me not doing that. That's cool, there's subliminal messages in my wall of text that will make you say silly things. Look! It worked!
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:56 pm

"I'd give my right tit for ________" is equivalentish.

The Left sacrifices absolute financial justice in exchange for some redistribution.
The Right is supposed to sacrifice laissez fiarez economics in exchange for free trade.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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San Leggera
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Postby San Leggera » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:56 pm

Is it just me or do you only make these threads so people will see the wikipedia pages you're the sole contributor to?
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Farnhamia
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:56 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The least he could do is ... I know, make a thread with several wall o' text posts on different subjects, and then just link back to those. Think of the time saved!

I used to just link to my blog...but then you guys all expressed your preference for me not doing that. That's cool, there's subliminal messages in my wall of text that will make you say silly things. Look! It worked!

You do realize that we're mocking you, right?
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:57 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Xerographica wrote:I used to just link to my blog...but then you guys all expressed your preference for me not doing that. That's cool, there's subliminal messages in my wall of text that will make you say silly things. Look! It worked!

You do realize that we're mocking you, right?

You do realize that I'm impervious, right?
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:59 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Wikkiwallana wrote:"you to stop making the same thread over and over."

If I make the same thread over and over...then why do you keep reading my threads? Ohhhh...you really like what I write! I know the truth hurts...but it will set you free.

Or I just skim them with the barest hope that each will be the one where you finally have something new to say.
Proud Scalawag and Statist!

Please don't confuse my country for my politics; my country is being run as a parody, my posts aren't.
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Halt!
Just because these people are stupid, wrong and highly dangerous does not mean you have the right to make them feel sad.
Xenohumanity wrote:
Nulono wrote:Snip
I'm a pro-lifer who runs a nation of dragon-men...
And even I think that's stupid.
Avenio wrote:Just so you know, the use of the term 'sheep' 'sheeple' or any other herd animal-based terminology in conjunction with an exhortation to 'think outside the box' or stop going along with groupthink generally indicates that the speaker is actually more closed-minded on the subject than the people that he/she is addressing. At least, in my experience at least.

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:59 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:"I'd give my right tit for ________" is equivalentish.

I don't know why...but for some reason that sounds like more of a sacrifice.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Zweite Alaje
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Ex-Nation

Postby Zweite Alaje » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:00 pm

Voting doesn't allow you to do much other than choose one terrible leader over another. At least here in the US.
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Forster Keys
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Postby Forster Keys » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:01 pm

Why not perform some interpretive dance next time you go to the polling booth?
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:03 pm

Xerographica wrote:If I make the same thread over and over...then why do you keep reading my threads? Ohhhh...you really like what I write! I know the truth hurts...but it will set you free.

Listen to me, and listen to me carefully:

I have high standards for what I do and do not like to read. You do not meet them. Your writing is bland. Insipid. Mechanical.

Oh yes, and your opinions are about as well-thought out as a barbecue with a pack of rabid dogs, but that's less of an issue. I see stupid ideas all the time. I see poor writing and grammar all the time. Rarely do I see something that's grammatically correct and simultaneously almost unreadable.
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:04 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Wikkiwallana wrote:"you to stop making the same thread over and over."

If I make the same thread over and over...then why do you keep reading my threads? Ohhhh...you really like what I write! I know the truth hurts...but it will set you free.


I've read a grand total of one complete post of yours. And much of another one.

The issue with your idea here is that the rich are better off when the poor are too, not the other way round. When the poor are vastly poorer than rich than a greater burden is placed on the wealthy to pay for what society needs. If roads go to waste then there problems. If the poor cannot get educated then there are problems. They won't be able to understand the world around them and cannot make the wealthy wealthier. Do you see?
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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:04 pm

San Leggera wrote:Is it just me or do you only make these threads so people will see the wikipedia pages you're the sole contributor to?

It'll be interesting when the Wiki Mods notice all the pages he's making.
Proud Scalawag and Statist!

Please don't confuse my country for my politics; my country is being run as a parody, my posts aren't.
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Halt!
Just because these people are stupid, wrong and highly dangerous does not mean you have the right to make them feel sad.
Xenohumanity wrote:
Nulono wrote:Snip
I'm a pro-lifer who runs a nation of dragon-men...
And even I think that's stupid.
Avenio wrote:Just so you know, the use of the term 'sheep' 'sheeple' or any other herd animal-based terminology in conjunction with an exhortation to 'think outside the box' or stop going along with groupthink generally indicates that the speaker is actually more closed-minded on the subject than the people that he/she is addressing. At least, in my experience at least.

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Death Metal
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Ex-Nation

Postby Death Metal » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:15 pm

There's nothing about voting, freedom, or expression in the OP. Only a self-advertising glorified blogpost about a ridiculous notion.

Taxes are fees for services rendered. Nothing more.

Want more money to go to your local schools? Go to a school play.
Want more money to go to your police department? Go to the policeman's benefit functions.

Vote with YOUR dollar.
Not the salaries of people working to make sure your life is better.
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Con: Censorship in any medium, Sales Tax, Flat Tax, Small Govt, Overly Large Govt, Laissez Faire, AutoTuner.

I support Obama. And so would FA Hayek.

34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:16 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Wikkiwallana wrote:"you to stop making the same thread over and over."

If I make the same thread over and over...then why do you keep reading my threads? Ohhhh...you really like what I write! I know the truth hurts...but it will set you free.


If the truth sets people free, you're building nothing but slave pens.
Only here when I'm VERY VERY VERY bored now.
(Trump is Reagan 2.0: A nationalistic bimbo who will ruin America.)
Death Metal: A nation founded on the most powerful force in the world: METAL! \m/
A non-idealist centre-leftist

Alts: Ronpaulatia, Bisonopolis, Iga, Gygaxia, The Children of Skyrim, Tinfoil Fedoras

Pro: Civil Equality, Scaled Income Taxes, Centralized Govtt, Moderate Business Regulations, Heavy Metal
Con: Censorship in any medium, Sales Tax, Flat Tax, Small Govt, Overly Large Govt, Laissez Faire, AutoTuner.

I support Obama. And so would FA Hayek.

34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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Falcania
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Anarchy

Postby Falcania » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:16 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The least he could do is ... I know, make a thread with several wall o' text posts on different subjects, and then just link back to those. Think of the time saved!

I used to just link to my blog...but then you guys all expressed your preference for me not doing that. That's cool, there's subliminal messages in my wall of text that will make you say silly things. Look! It worked!


That's not even funny. It's just sad.
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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:18 pm

Falcania wrote:
Xerographica wrote:I used to just link to my blog...but then you guys all expressed your preference for me not doing that. That's cool, there's subliminal messages in my wall of text that will make you say silly things. Look! It worked!


That's not even funny. It's just sad.

Oh, it IS sad. Tragic even.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Death Metal wrote:
Xerographica wrote:If I make the same thread over and over...then why do you keep reading my threads? Ohhhh...you really like what I write! I know the truth hurts...but it will set you free.


If the truth sets people free, you're building nothing but slave pens.

What thing, of consequence, have I said that isn't true?
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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San Leggera
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Ex-Nation

Postby San Leggera » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:22 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Falcania wrote:
That's not even funny. It's just sad.

Oh, it IS sad. Tragic even.

There's an excellent joke referring to Shakespeare's plays in there somewhere.
#JusticeForGat
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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:23 pm

Forsher wrote:The issue with your idea here is that the rich are better off when the poor are too, not the other way round. When the poor are vastly poorer than rich than a greater burden is placed on the wealthy to pay for what society needs. If roads go to waste then there problems. If the poor cannot get educated then there are problems. They won't be able to understand the world around them and cannot make the wealthy wealthier. Do you see?

If you get a chance you should really read Paul Krugman's essay "In Praise of Cheap Labor".
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Death Metal
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Ex-Nation

Postby Death Metal » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:23 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Death Metal wrote:
If the truth sets people free, you're building nothing but slave pens.

What thing, of consequence, have I said that isn't true?


It'd be quicker for me to say what is.
Only here when I'm VERY VERY VERY bored now.
(Trump is Reagan 2.0: A nationalistic bimbo who will ruin America.)
Death Metal: A nation founded on the most powerful force in the world: METAL! \m/
A non-idealist centre-leftist

Alts: Ronpaulatia, Bisonopolis, Iga, Gygaxia, The Children of Skyrim, Tinfoil Fedoras

Pro: Civil Equality, Scaled Income Taxes, Centralized Govtt, Moderate Business Regulations, Heavy Metal
Con: Censorship in any medium, Sales Tax, Flat Tax, Small Govt, Overly Large Govt, Laissez Faire, AutoTuner.

I support Obama. And so would FA Hayek.

34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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