NationStates

Murray land wrote:

Chinamerica wrote:I'm a devout Christian and I've never understood how someone could happily live as an atheist who believes that they won't go to heaven. When I say atheists I don't mean Buddhists or anything, I mean the ones who think that death is the end.

Are you happy thinking that? Does it make you feel more intelligent? Would you LIKE there to be a God?

Personally if I was atheist I'd be depressed as hell going through life thinking like that. What are your opinions?

Can we stop with these threads please they have established one fact DON'T debate religion or a lack there of.

You haven't been on NSG for long have you? Religion, abortion, gays and how much republuicans suck are the 4 mainstays of NSG

Blouman Empire wrote:

Murray land wrote:Can we stop with these threads please they have established one fact DON'T debate religion or a lack there of.

You haven't been on NSG for long have you? Religion, abortion, gays and how much republuicans suck are the 4 mainstays of NSG

You mean 'Republicans' rather than 'republicans'. I'm the latter, but not the former.

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:Because it is impossible to neither believe nor lack belief.
A majority of the people who say they're agnostic are agnostic atheists.

And the rest are?

Anyway if you shorten it then agnostic is a perfectly acceptable word and is easy for everyone to understand the need to go into specifics

But that confuses the meaning. Because while I might call myself an agnostic atheist (I don't, but I suppose that's what I am), I am an atheist. I do not believe in a god or gods.

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:Because it is impossible to neither believe nor lack belief.
A majority of the people who say they're agnostic are agnostic atheists.

And the rest are?

Anyway if you shorten it then agnostic is a perfectly acceptable word and is easy for everyone to understand the need to go into specifics

The rest would be agnostic theists.
The concept really isn't that hard to follow... I'm confused as to why you're having such a hard time with it.

Blouman Empire wrote:

Murray land wrote:Can we stop with these threads please they have established one fact DON'T debate religion or a lack there of.

You haven't been on NSG for long have you? Religion, abortion, gays and how much republuicans suck are the 4 mainstays of NSG

You forget debating for no good reason.

The Dwemer Ascendancy wrote:

Blouman Empire wrote:
And the rest are?

Anyway if you shorten it then agnostic is a perfectly acceptable word and is easy for everyone to understand the need to go into specifics

But that confuses the meaning. Because while I might call myself an agnostic atheist (I don't, but I suppose that's what I am), I am an atheist. I do not believe in a god or gods.

Yes but calling yourself an agnostic is entirely different from being a theist, nothing confusing about it at all, if you were to say you were agnostic then I would know that you don't hold the belief that there is no god(s).

New Rogernomics wrote:

Blouman Empire wrote:
You haven't been on NSG for long have you? Religion, abortion, gays and how much republuicans suck are the 4 mainstays of NSG

You forget debating for no good reason.

lol that is the entrie purpose of NSG

Dyakovo wrote:

Blouman Empire wrote:
And the rest are?

Anyway if you shorten it then agnostic is a perfectly acceptable word and is easy for everyone to understand the need to go into specifics

The rest would be agnostic theists.
The concept really isn't that hard to follow... I'm confused as to why you're having such a hard time with it.

What are agnostic theists? People who don't hold a belief in god(s) but do?

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:The rest would be agnostic theists.
The concept really isn't that hard to follow... I'm confused as to why you're having such a hard time with it.

What are agnostic theists? People who don't hold a belief in god(s) but do?

People who believe in god(s) but believe it's impossible to know for sure.

(To my mind, a much more sensible position than the one that proclaims that belief IS knowledge).

Not Safe For Work wrote:

Blouman Empire wrote:
What are agnostic theists? People who don't hold a belief in god(s) but do?

People who believe in god(s) but believe it's impossible to know for sure.

(To my mind, a much more sensible position than the one that proclaims that belief IS knowledge).

So they are thiests

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:The rest would be agnostic theists.
The concept really isn't that hard to follow... I'm confused as to why you're having such a hard time with it.

What are agnostic theists? People who don't hold a belief in god(s) but do?

No, agnostic theists are those who do not claim to know if any deities exist, but believe in them (or at least one) regardless.

Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge not belief.

---

Blouman Empire wrote:

Not Safe For Work wrote:
People who believe in god(s) but believe it's impossible to know for sure.

(To my mind, a much more sensible position than the one that proclaims that belief IS knowledge).

So they are thiests

No shit, Sherlock.
I'd have thought that the "theist" part of "agnostic theist" would have been a dead give-away...

Blouman Empire wrote:

Not Safe For Work wrote:
People who believe in god(s) but believe it's impossible to know for sure.

(To my mind, a much more sensible position than the one that proclaims that belief IS knowledge).

So they are thiests

...yes?

Dyakovo wrote:No shit, Sherlock.
I'd have thought that the "theist" part of "agnostic theist" would have been a dead give-away...

So there is no need for the agnostic part of that.

And if someone is agnostic then that is saying they have no knowledge on it. So not impossible, I have no knoweldge and I don't care either way

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:No shit, Sherlock.
I'd have thought that the "theist" part of "agnostic theist" would have been a dead give-away...

So there is no need for the agnostic part of that.

And if someone is agnostic then that is saying they have no knowledge on it. So not impossible, I have no knoweldge and I don't care either way

There is a need if the person wishes to clarify whether they are a gnostic theist or an agnostic one...
Same thing applies with atheists.

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:No shit, Sherlock.
I'd have thought that the "theist" part of "agnostic theist" would have been a dead give-away...

So there is no need for the agnostic part of that.

And if someone is agnostic then that is saying they have no knowledge on it. So not impossible, I have no knoweldge and I don't care either way

There are degrees of gnosticism...
And if they don't care and don't know, then they are not theists and are by default atheists.

Dyakovo wrote:

Blouman Empire wrote:
So there is no need for the agnostic part of that.

And if someone is agnostic then that is saying they have no knowledge on it. So not impossible, I have no knoweldge and I don't care either way

There is a need if the person wishes to clarify whether they are a gnostic theist or an agnostic one...
Same thing applies with atheists.

I guess if people feel the need they have to be different. I wonder what the next term will be.

Actually I heard someone call themselves a faithist the other day, not in the discriminating against people who hold a religious faith but one who doesn't believe in God but rather the messages, lessons ad way of life that religion teach. How's that for hipster labelling

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:No shit, Sherlock.
I'd have thought that the "theist" part of "agnostic theist" would have been a dead give-away...

So there is no need for the agnostic part of that.

There's no 'need' for any of it, unless the 'need' is describing things as accurately as you can.

Blouman Empire wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:There is a need if the person wishes to clarify whether they are a gnostic theist or an agnostic one...
Same thing applies with atheists.

I guess if people feel the need they have to be different. I wonder what the next term will be.

Actually I heard someone call themselves a faithist the other day, not in the discriminating against people who hold a religious faith but one who doesn't believe in God but rather the messages, lessons ad way of life that religion teach. How's that for hipster labelling

I wouldn't have called that position 'faithist' - I would describe it as 'pro-religion Atheist'.

Which, incidentally, describes my own position.

Chinamerica wrote:I'm a devout Christian and I've never understood how someone could happily live as an atheist who believes that they won't go to heaven. When I say atheists I don't mean Buddhists or anything, I mean the ones who think that death is the end.

Are you happy thinking that? Does it make you feel more intelligent? Would you LIKE there to be a God?

Personally if I was atheist I'd be depressed as hell going through life thinking like that. What are your opinions?

Heaven to me would be terrible. I am an athiest but lets just say I was a Christian and I believed in a heaven and hell. As a Christian, I would end up going to heaven but what about my friends and family who are not Christian? Or my Muslim friends? I would be in heaven with people I don't know. The people that mean the most to me would be burning in ultimate pain for all eternity. That is a terrible thought to be thinking all alone in the clouds.

This pretty much sums it up for me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

Minarchist Territory of Pineland wrote:I think it's cute the way atheists don't think atheism is a belief.

Its true that there are atheistic (that is, godless) belief systems, but there is no single belief or ideology called "atheism".

There's no single belief or belief system called "theism" either. Atheism and theism are just categories into which beliefs and belief systems may be placed.

In terms of beliefs, there are no atheists or theists. There are Christians, Secular Humanists, Hindus, Objectivists, etc.

There are your "narratives".

While atheism is defined, not as a belief in anything, but specifically categorized as a non belief, you still end up in a belief that there isn't a God

No, you don't. It's typically the lack of a belief. One may believe that theistic arguments that God exists are unsuccessful, and leave it at that. However, an atheist certainly does have some beliefs about the universe, and they don't happen to involve a deity.

I should imagine the whole point is that atheists feel indifferent about it and just get on with their lives.

Chinamerica wrote:I'm a devout Christian and I've never understood how someone could happily live as an atheist who believes that they won't go to heaven. When I say atheists I don't mean Buddhists or anything, I mean the ones who think that death is the end.

Are you happy thinking that? Does it make you feel more intelligent? Would you LIKE there to be a God?

Personally if I was atheist I'd be depressed as hell going through life thinking like that. What are your opinions?

Are you saying I should convert to christianity because it will make me happy? Because that isn't good enough. You'll have to convince me it's true.

Vnaan wrote:Heaven to me would be terrible. I am an athiest but lets just say I was a Christian and I believed in a heaven and hell. As a Christian, I would end up going to heaven but what about my friends and family who are not Christian? Or my Muslim friends? I would be in heaven with people I don't know. The people that mean the most to me would be burning in ultimate pain for all eternity. That is a terrible thought to be thinking all alone in the clouds.

Never fear, you'll be too enraptured by God's glory and the sound of angels playing harps to remember all the others who didn't make it.

Not Safe For Work wrote:

Blouman Empire wrote:
So there is no need for the agnostic part of that.

There's no 'need' for any of it, unless the 'need' is describing things as accurately as you can.

Which is only needed on NSG if talking generally theist and agnostic will do just fine