NationStates

Aksun wrote:

Choronzon wrote:And you have failed miserably at explaining how these somehow help women at the expense of men.

And you apparently cannot read posts.

I can. Yours just don't prove anything, and your concerns have already been addressed. Feminism seeks to destroy patriarchy. Your concerns are with patriarchy.

Moving on.

Not until you get the point.

Aksun wrote:I have read into what you post and it seems to be all negative.

So what?

Aksun wrote:I understand your point, but there are laws out there that are unwritten and societal norms that influence our society.

See, that's the thing. You don't understand my point, because you didn't actually address anything I said in that post. Well, either that, or you're being purposefully disengenuous, but that's probably worse than ignorance.

Again, the effects of patriarchy are what cause the societal problems associated with male rape. Patriarchy enforces roles onto both genders; females are expected to be subservient, meek and sexually-repressed, whilst males are expected to be stoic, unemotional and see asking for help as a sign of weakness.

So let's think this through; would seeing asking for help as weakness make men more or less likely to seek help from the police after being raped? Yes or no? Following that, would a man who has been conditioned from a young age to never show deep emotions have difficulty working through the trauma of a rape? Yes or no?

AETEN II wrote:

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:
This really isn't true. Just in the past 10 years, acceptance of GLBT people has improved by orders of magnitude.

Basic bias won't. At the most primitive level, racism will always remain. Period. Maybe in a hundred years it might change for the better. But we won't likely live to see it.

This.

We are all inherently racist on a primal level. We don't like people who don't look like us - hence why we all tend to congregate into ethnic communities.

In my area, it's 90% Asian. There's maybe one or two whites, and several black families, but they generally keep to themselves. This is an Asian neighborhood - and no matter how we preach that racism is dead, we treat the whites and blacks different than we would our fellow Asians.

AETEN II wrote:Basic bias won't. At the most primitive level, racism will always remain. Period. Maybe in a hundred years it might change for the better. But we won't likely live to see it.

Racism remains, but to say that society today is just as racist as it was 50 years ago is to be utterly blind to history. Just because we have a long way to go doesn't mean that we haven't come a long way.

Avenio wrote:

Aksun wrote:I have read into what you post and it seems to be all negative.

So what?

Aksun wrote:I understand your point, but there are laws out there that are unwritten and societal norms that influence our society.

See, that's the thing. You don't understand my point, because you didn't actually address anything I said in that post. Well, either that, or you're being purposefully disengenuous, but that's probably worse than ignorance.

Again, the effects of patriarchy are what cause the societal problems associated with male rape. Patriarchy enforces roles onto both genders; females are expected to be subservient, meek and sexually-repressed, whilst males are expected to be stoic, unemotional and see asking for help as a sign of weakness.

So let's think this through; would seeing asking for help as weakness make men more or less likely to seek help from the police after being raped? Yes or no?

It is not about weakness, but the response time and the society actually doing something about it... This was implied by my post previously.

AETEN II wrote:

PapaJacky wrote:
If women can exert the same, why not?

No, the point is that the average male is stronger and faster than the average women. It's simply easier to have a military the majority of is female. I also get why women are typically not allowed in the extremely dangerous spec ops branches like the SEALs, as even one relationship that started could jeopardize a mission in some circumstance. Maybe if they had all-female squads and all-male squads. Just don't want mixing in a critical mission in case that 'rare possibility' happens.
While women can participate in the military, they should have the tests remain at the current standards, and not lower them as I've heard one person propose before.

But that's not my point. My point is that if there are gender-neutral fitness requirements, why shouldn't woman be allowed to fight? As with your paranoia over relationship issues, they're professionals, just because you're a black guy in the SEALs doesn't mean that the "rare possibility of a racially incited team breakup" is going to happen. Same with Gays, same with Political parties. It's stupid in of itself.

PapaJacky wrote:

AETEN II wrote:No, the point is that the average male is stronger and faster than the average women. It's simply easier to have a military the majority of is female. I also get why women are typically not allowed in the extremely dangerous spec ops branches like the SEALs, as even one relationship that started could jeopardize a mission in some circumstance. Maybe if they had all-female squads and all-male squads. Just don't want mixing in a critical mission in case that 'rare possibility' happens.
While women can participate in the military, they should have the tests remain at the current standards, and not lower them as I've heard one person propose before.

But that's not my point. My point is that if there are gender-neutral fitness requirements, why shouldn't woman be allowed to fight? As with your paranoia over relationship issues, they're professionals, just because you're a black guy in the SEALs doesn't mean that the "rare possibility of a racially incited team breakup" is going to happen. Same with Gays, same with Political parties. It's stupid in of itself.

Yet we still have the problem where women are rarely seen if at all on SEAL teams.

Aksun wrote:It is not about weakness, but the response time and the society actually doing something about it... This was implied by my post previously.

No, sadly, it isn't. It helps if you actually do research on this, by the way. Men are much less likely to report sexual assaults and rapes; only one in ten sex crimes directed towards males is actually reported. The social stigma that males that have been sexually assaulted/raped are weak or are lying/exaggerating (because the social norm towards men is such that real men just don't get raped period) is extremely strong. This has been documented for decades now.

Using media sources can be lead to bias to their point of view. Be careful.

Aksun wrote:Using media sources can be lead to bias to their point of view. Be careful.

That's your response?

Would you prefer I rant on and have you say I am wrong based on your point of view, or state a point saying your sources can be scrutinized?

Aksun wrote:Using media sources can be lead to bias to their point of view. Be careful.

That only applies if it's a source like Fox News. Most news sources are actually fairly centrist, because unless you have a niche following (like all the conservatives watching Fox), you need to appeal to all people in order to real in those ratings and stay on the air.

Are men worse-off than they used to be. 100%. We can't bash our wives, send them to the women's quarters etc. etc. etc.

But the times have changed...for the better, now slowly getting worse

Are women better off than me NOW. Yes, but it's not that bad...YET

Man perspective

Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Are men worse-off than they used to be. 100%. We can't bash our wives, send them to the women's quarters etc. etc. etc.

But the times have changed...for the better, now slowly getting worse

Are women better off than me NOW. Yes, but it's not that bad...YET

Man perspective

Were you trying to be incoherent, or...?

Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Are men worse-off than they used to be. 100%. We can't bash our wives, send them to the women's quarters etc. etc. etc.

Those were the days. Now I have to whip myself to get off.

But the times have changed...for the better, now slowly getting worse

BECAUSE ONE OF THEM'S THE BLOODY PM! STRUTH! RUINING THE JOINT!

Are women better off than me NOW. Yes, but it's not that bad...YET

So since you can't physically abuse them and exert dominance over them, they're better off than you?

Man perspective

One man's perspective.

Aksun wrote:

PapaJacky wrote:
But that's not my point. My point is that if there are gender-neutral fitness requirements, why shouldn't woman be allowed to fight? As with your paranoia over relationship issues, they're professionals, just because you're a black guy in the SEALs doesn't mean that the "rare possibility of a racially incited team breakup" is going to happen. Same with Gays, same with Political parties. It's stupid in of itself.

Yet we still have the problem where women are rarely seen if at all on SEAL teams.

...because they aren't allowed...

Aksun wrote:Would you prefer I rant on and have you say I am wrong based on your point of view? Or state a point saying your sources can be scrutinized.

Acceptance of male rape myths among college men and women - Cindy Struckman-Johnson and David Struckman-Johnson wrote:
Abstract

College students (157 men and 158 women; predominantly white middle class) from psychology courses at a midwestern university rated their agreement with statements reflecting myths that male rape cannot happen, involves victim blame, and is not traumatic to men. Statements varied by whether the rape perpetrator was a man or woman. Results showed that a majority of subjects disagreed with all myth statements, but most strongly with trauma myths. Percentages of disagreement with myths for subject groups ranged from 51% to 98%. Women were significantly more rejecting of rape myths than were men. Subjects were more likely to accept myths in which the rape perpetrator was female rather than male. Subjects' past victim experience with sexual coercion was not related to rape myth acceptance. Results are discussed in terms of societal attitudes toward rape and sex role stereotypes.

Male rape: Offenders and victims. - Groth, A. Nicholas; Burgess, Ann W. - The American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 137(7), Jul 1980, 806-810. wrote:Abstract

Past research on blaming the victim has virtually ignored male victimization while concentrating on the female victim. The purpose of the present study was to investigate whether or not gender differences exist in blaming a male rape victim and whether or not any theories of victim blame could be applied to this domain. Subjects were given the Belief in a Just World Scale, an intervening cognitive task, and a scenario describing a young man who was arrested outside of a bar where a fight occurred and who was later raped in a police holding cell. The manipulation consisted of whether or not the man had a previous arrest record. Subjects were then given a questionnaire assessing victim blame. Results showed males blamed the victim more than females and that the prior arrest victim was held more responsible than was the no-prior-arrest victim. The present findings are consistent with Lerner's belief in a just world theory.

Attributions of victim responsibility, pleasure, and trauma in male rape - Damon Mitchella, Richard Hirschmanb & Gordon C. Nagayama Halla - The Journal of Sex Research wrote:Abstract

The purpose of this study was to examine the following: (a) the relationship between the sexual orientation of a male rape victim and participants’ attributions of the victim's degree of responsibility, pleasure, and trauma associated with the assault, and (b) differences between male and female participants in their attributions of these variables. Participants were 396 college students. Participants read a brief report describing a male‐on‐male sexual assault. The victim's sexual orientation was described as either heterosexual or homosexual. After reading the report, participants completed a questionnaire assessing their attributions regarding the victim's responsibility for the assault, and the amount of pleasure and trauma the victim experienced from the assault. Participants attributed more responsibility, more pleasure, and less trauma to a homosexual victim than to a heterosexual victim. Male participants attributed more responsibility and pleasure to a male rape victim than did female participants.

Male rape: Offenders and victims. - Groth, A. Nicholas; Burgess, Ann W. - The American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 137(7), Jul 1980, 806-810. wrote:
Abstract

In an analysis of 22 cases of male rape in a community setting, the gender of the victim did not appear to be of primary importance to some of the rapists, but for others, males appeared to be specific intended targets, and the rapists' assaults were an effort to deal with unresolved and conflictual aspects of their lives. For all offenders the sexual assault was an act of retaliation, an expression of power, and an assertion of their strength and manhood. The impact of rape on the male victims was similar to that on female victims, disrupting their biopsychosocial functioning; however, male rape appears to be underreported due to the stigma associated with it. (9 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)

Would you like me to find more? There's plenty more in my university's database where that came from.

Avenio wrote:

Aksun wrote:Would you prefer I rant on and have you say I am wrong based on your point of view? Or state a point saying your sources can be scrutinized.

Acceptance of male rape myths among college men and women - Cindy Struckman-Johnson and David Struckman-Johnson wrote:
Abstract

College students (157 men and 158 women; predominantly white middle class) from psychology courses at a midwestern university rated their agreement with statements reflecting myths that male rape cannot happen, involves victim blame, and is not traumatic to men. Statements varied by whether the rape perpetrator was a man or woman. Results showed that a majority of subjects disagreed with all myth statements, but most strongly with trauma myths. Percentages of disagreement with myths for subject groups ranged from 51% to 98%. Women were significantly more rejecting of rape myths than were men. Subjects were more likely to accept myths in which the rape perpetrator was female rather than male. Subjects' past victim experience with sexual coercion was not related to rape myth acceptance. Results are discussed in terms of societal attitudes toward rape and sex role stereotypes.

Male rape: Offenders and victims. - Groth, A. Nicholas; Burgess, Ann W. - The American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 137(7), Jul 1980, 806-810. wrote:Abstract

Past research on blaming the victim has virtually ignored male victimization while concentrating on the female victim. The purpose of the present study was to investigate whether or not gender differences exist in blaming a male rape victim and whether or not any theories of victim blame could be applied to this domain. Subjects were given the Belief in a Just World Scale, an intervening cognitive task, and a scenario describing a young man who was arrested outside of a bar where a fight occurred and who was later raped in a police holding cell. The manipulation consisted of whether or not the man had a previous arrest record. Subjects were then given a questionnaire assessing victim blame. Results showed males blamed the victim more than females and that the prior arrest victim was held more responsible than was the no-prior-arrest victim. The present findings are consistent with Lerner's belief in a just world theory.

Attributions of victim responsibility, pleasure, and trauma in male rape - Damon Mitchella, Richard Hirschmanb & Gordon C. Nagayama Halla - The Journal of Sex Research wrote:Abstract

The purpose of this study was to examine the following: (a) the relationship between the sexual orientation of a male rape victim and participants’ attributions of the victim's degree of responsibility, pleasure, and trauma associated with the assault, and (b) differences between male and female participants in their attributions of these variables. Participants were 396 college students. Participants read a brief report describing a male‐on‐male sexual assault. The victim's sexual orientation was described as either heterosexual or homosexual. After reading the report, participants completed a questionnaire assessing their attributions regarding the victim's responsibility for the assault, and the amount of pleasure and trauma the victim experienced from the assault. Participants attributed more responsibility, more pleasure, and less trauma to a homosexual victim than to a heterosexual victim. Male participants attributed more responsibility and pleasure to a male rape victim than did female participants.

Male rape: Offenders and victims. - Groth, A. Nicholas; Burgess, Ann W. - The American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 137(7), Jul 1980, 806-810. wrote:
Abstract

In an analysis of 22 cases of male rape in a community setting, the gender of the victim did not appear to be of primary importance to some of the rapists, but for others, males appeared to be specific intended targets, and the rapists' assaults were an effort to deal with unresolved and conflictual aspects of their lives. For all offenders the sexual assault was an act of retaliation, an expression of power, and an assertion of their strength and manhood. The impact of rape on the male victims was similar to that on female victims, disrupting their biopsychosocial functioning; however, male rape appears to be underreported due to the stigma associated with it. (9 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)

Would you like me to find more? There's plenty more in my university's database where that came from.

Can only be applicable in your University and not to society in general. For one the sample size used is too small to generalize society, two as I said above the sample size taken can ONLY be used for the University or the city the study was taken.

Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Are men worse-off than they used to be. 100%. We can't bash our wives, send them to the women's quarters etc. etc. etc.

But the times have changed...for the better, now slowly getting worse

Are women better off than me NOW. Yes, but it's not that bad...YET

Man perspective

Kala, you scare me sometimes.

Norstal wrote:

Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Are men worse-off than they used to be. 100%. We can't bash our wives, send them to the women's quarters etc. etc. etc.

But the times have changed...for the better, now slowly getting worse

Are women better off than me NOW. Yes, but it's not that bad...YET

Man perspective

Kala, you scare me sometimes.

I believe he was joking...

Aksun wrote:Can only be applicable in your University and not to society in general. For one the sample size used is too small to generalize society, two as I said above the sample size taken can ONLY be used for the University or the city the study was taken.

Good lord, it's my university's database of papers published in journals, not a list of case studies taken at the university itself.

Avenio wrote:

Aksun wrote:Can only be applicable in your University and not to society in general. For one the sample size used is too small to generalize society, two as I said above the sample size taken can ONLY be used for the University or the city the study was taken.

Good lord, it's my university's database of papers published in journals, not a list of case studies taken at the university itself.

However, some of the sample sizes seem to be pretty small.

Choronzon wrote:

Aksun wrote:
And you apparently cannot read posts.

I can. Yours just don't prove anything, and your concerns have already been addressed. Feminism seeks to destroy patriarchy.

And yet feminists persistently fail to work to advance the acknowledgement of rape or violence when the victims are male, especially when the perpetrators are female.

Feminist organizations had a major opportunity recently, too; they successfully got the FBI to change its definition of rape.

See, they felt the old definition was too narrow. "The carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will," said the FBI, was what rape was. This was very narrow; no anal, no oral, and rape was something a man did to a woman, penis-in-vagina required, force required. The new definition is:

"The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

This is nominally gender-neutral language - see, no "woman," and no archaic euphemism for penis-in-vagina sex. This means that now the FBI can count any sex act a man performs on a victim as rape. And yet, if a woman ties a man to a table, drugs him to the gills, and rides him at gunpoint, after he took out a restraining order on her and put into writing that he would not wish to have sex with her even if it meant being dipped in a pit of bees by a meat hook - just to make that perfectly clear no consent at all is present - it's still not rape by the FBI's new definition.

Rape is an act of penetration according to the new definition, hailed by feminist groups as a major victory. The estimated 1.3 million men annually "made to penetrate" someone don't count, because they weren't being penetrated. If "patriarchy" is defined as the system which commits sexist oppression on men, then as a plain cold matter of fact, feminist groups have not been working to destroy patriarchy; they've been working selectively to break little bits of it off.

Reference to the patriarchy is generally lazy thinking at best, and a paranoid conspiracy theory at worst. A great many things attributed to patriarchy have absolutely nothing to do with males being the leaders [patriarchs] of family/clan units - and a number of sexist problems have actually been generated or worsened by the actions of the feminist movement.

Take pedophile panic. Pedophile panic is a modern phenomenon, brought to us courtesy of a devil's alliance between MacKinnon, Dworkin, and the rest of the anti-sex feminists with social conservatives. It's targeted nearly exclusively at men, in spite of the fact that women abuse children more than men do; we're just less likely to class it as sexual, even if it's the exact same act, and it's much less likely to be reported or come to criminal charges. Pedophile panic is not a product of "the patriarchy," it's a product of vilifying men as predatory rape-monsters.

"It's the patriarchy!!!" is not an excuse for selectively failing to act when you don't see women benefiting from addressing a problem. It's not an excuse for ignoring the ways in which sexism harms men; the sorts of things that can be classed as male disadvantages or female privileges is a class of things which the feminist movement has not done anything to improve.

Oh, there are some areas that feminists have worked on - for example, paternity leave, seen as beneficial to women, since there's usually a woman involved somewhere when there's a baby. But then there are areas where feminists have been actively opposing equality, such as support for male victims of domestic violence, because they figure that doing so harms women [limited available funding]. Feminist groups act for women. It's what their donors are interested in, their volunteers are passionate about, et cetera.

I don't believe men are worse off but there is room for improvement. Gender equality is monstrossly off outside of the developed world, so I'll mainly address the west here. Men can be conscripted and women can't in a few very democratic countries. The law favours the women in divorce, custody and sometimes but not always, domestic violence.

These issues have been brought up by feminist groups and the law and law enforcemennf are mainly men so it can't be blamed on feminism but I think this insistance that females are inequal distracts people from addressing gender inequality for males.

It'd be better if we could have more neutral gender rights groups that seek to address the imbalance where they can find it. Some feminist groups attempt to do this, but even the word feminist is an excuse for many women to neglect male issues. It makes a smokescreen. Theres male right groups, especially for issues concerning fathers, but you don't hear about them as much and they've been outcompeted by groups who actually in principle desire the same thing and enforse their arguments but will never devote the same enthusiasm or pull the same support because they're not female issues.

(typed on phone expect errors)

Genivaria wrote:

AETEN II wrote:-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.

Compared to.....?

Women,

We also graduate college at a lessor rate.