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Second American Civil War

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Yankee Empire
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Postby Yankee Empire » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:24 pm

Shadowlandistan wrote:Personally, I'd like to see the US break up into different nations. We are SUCH a polarized country I don't see how we can keep going like this.

Balkanizations of nations has never preceded conflict, specifically wars no not at all, it's perfectly reasonable to be tribalistic, it'll solve most of our social problems...

God I hate using sarcasm, almost as much as I hate half assed thinking without forethought.
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Yankee Empire
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Postby Yankee Empire » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:31 pm

North California wrote:I'd side with which ever faction wants a Constitutionally limited government, and end to the wars, legalization of drugs and gay marriage, and an end to the corporatism. Basically, which ever faction wants to get rid of the past 30+ years of shitty government (yes, Obama and Bush are included in that).


I'm all for keeping the constitution but limited government always seems to be a weak and apathetic government, that allows the plutocrats and privite interests to run the country, I support a brand of Theodore Rooselvelt federalism, strong government mixed with citizen self reliance, not the "daddy government" that limited government supporters claim it'd be. Also I find it odd how you'd side with a faction in a war that would "end the wars" isn't that kind of backwards?

I bet you're also misusing the word Corporatism.
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Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
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The House of Petain
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Postby The House of Petain » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:32 pm

Norjagen wrote:A second civil war would be drastically different from the first. You would have 3 distinct fighting forces involved. On the side of the government, you would have loyalists in the military, and on the side of the rebellion, you would have the military forces that desert with their weapons, or possibly even unit commanders that desert with their weapons and men.

These first two forces would likely slug out the early stages of the war. Depending on which side garnered more support from within the military, the government would either crush any conventional resistance or be toppled by a military government.

Assuming that the government manages to put down any military uprisings, the war would shift gears into a more unconventional one. This is where the third fighting force comes into play. The rebellion would likely have no specific leader on a national level, with cells of individuals conducting insurgency operations and possibly terrorist attacks in their local areas.

The end result? The war would not, as some people claim, be over quickly. The conventional aspect of the war may be over swiftly, but it would be followed by a long period of severe unrest, which could last years or even decades. Insurgents would likely have no way to overthrow the government on their own, but once that "us and them" sentiment takes root, they would most likely live purely for the chance to strike out at the government however they could.

Once fighting for the sake of not giving up becomes the norm, you start to see situations like that in Israel, where the forecast is "Mostly sunny with a chance of explosions." Terrorist attacks by these insurgent groups would likely be made far worse by the preceding conventional war, with large amounts of weapons, from pistols right up to anti-tank weapons, tending to go missing and fall off of the grid.


You're absolutely wrong. The next civil war will start in San Francisco, when Nancy Pelosi, being fed up as House Minority Leader instead of House Speaker, will declare San Francisco the capitol of Gaylandia and proclaim herself the Queen of Rainbows. As President Romney sends federal troops to take over this tiny, flamboyant town, he'll leave D.C. unguarded and what he doesn't know is the Queen of Rainbows has signed a secret treaty between Gaylandia, Canada and Latin America.

As a result, Canada and trillions of spicy Latin men will pour their troops (numbering in the billions) into the country, effectively overwhelming the Macho-Men Brigade defending DC. In the ensuing battle, titled the Battle of Elton John (since Elton John will be supreme allied commander of the gay force union), Vice President Ryan will become a turncoat and he, with drag queen Giuliani, will attack and imprison Romney due to his suit being seasonally out of fashion.

From there, Queen Pelosi of the House of Drag will create death panels -yes death panels- to determine who deserves death because their ensemble simply doesn't work or because they are wearing Abercrombie and Fitch while trying to pass themselves off as preppy. Guess what guys -that shit ain't fucking preppy. Larry Craig will become the Secretary of Cottaging, Barney Franks the Secretary of Power Bottoms, Hillary Clinton will be Secretary of 18 Million Cracks in the Glass Ceiling Still Unbroken Even After the Gay Revolution Because Gaylandia is still Mostly Ran by Strong But Effeminate Men (the exception being the Queen, though technically in Gaylandia the title can go to either gender) and David Bowie will be made Honorary Grand Poobah of Gay Parades -which will be daily and everybody will be forced to watch, attend and smile.

Soon us heterosexuals will just disappear. Oh sure, they say they are sending us to the FEMA recycling camps, to "recycle," but we all know that what happens in the FEMA recycling camps stays in the FEMA recycling camps. The indoctrination classes (24 hours/7 days a week of watching My Little Pony) will turn the bi's into raging homosexuals and the rest will be driven to suicide (that is fashion suicide, wearing K-Mart, JC Penny, Sears clothes). Those that survive or "fail"to turn gay will be sent to prison, which has been turned into a state bordello with the prisoners serving as the prostitutes to the public.

Finally, the world will know the greatest gay secret of them all, something that will alter the course of humanity, cause the universe to implode and end all life as we know it....That Chaz Bono and Elena Kagan are really the same person...
Last edited by The House of Petain on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Norjagen
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Postby Norjagen » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:39 pm

The House of Petain wrote:
You're absolutely wrong. The next civil war will start in San Francisco, when Nancy Pelosi, being fed up as House Minority Leader instead of House Speaker, will declare San Francisco the capitol of Gaylandia and proclaim herself the Queen of Rainbows. As President Romney sends federal troops to take over this tiny, flamboyant town, he'll leave D.C. unguarded and what he doesn't know is the Queen of Rainbows has signed a secret treaty between Gaylandia, Canada and Latin America.

As a result, Canada and trillions of spicy Latin men will pour their troops (numbering in the billions) into the country, effectively overwhelming the Macho-Men Brigade defending DC. In the ensuing battle, titled the Battle of Elton John (since Elton John will be supreme allied commander of the gay force union), Vice President Ryan will become a turncoat and he, with drag queen Giuliani, will attack and imprison Romney due to his suit being seasonally out of fashion.

From there, Queen Pelosi of the House of Drag will create death panels -yes death panels- to determine who deserves death because their ensemble simply doesn't work or because they are wearing Abercrombie and Fitch while trying to pass themselves off as preppy. Guess what guys -that shit ain't fucking preppy. Larry Craig will become the Secretary of Cottaging, Barney Franks the Secretary of Power Bottoms, Hillary Clinton will be Secretary of 18 Million Cracks in the Glass Still Unbroken Even After the Gay Revolution Because Gaylandia is still Mostly Ran by Strong But Effeminate Men (the exception being the Queen, though technically in Gaylandia the title can go to either gender) and David Bowie will be made Honorary Grand Poobah of Gay Parades -which will be daily and everybody will be forced to watch, attend and smile.

Soon us heterosexuals will just disappear. Oh sure, they say they are sending us to the FEMA recycling camps, to "recycle," but we all know that what happens in the FEMA recycling camps stays in the FEMA recycling camps. The indoctrination classes (24 hours/7 days a week of My Little Pony) will turn the bi's into raging homosexuals. Those that "fail" will be sent to prison, which has been turned into a state bordello with the prisoners as the prostitutes.

Finally, the world will know the greatest gay secret of them all, something that will alter the course of humanity, cause the universe to implode and end all life as we know it....That Chaz Bono and Elena Kagan are really one in the same person...

I... I really don't know how to respond to this. Purple, because aliens don't wear hats?

And it's SIR Elton John, thank you very much. MISTER Sir Elton John to you. lol
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Alkasana
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Really. The CSA? Never going to happen. (again)

Postby Alkasana » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:52 pm

Something tells me the North Pacific and Midwest states would team up because they tend to hold the democratic values in office (and votes) and, yes, a strange team, the South and New England would hold together for repulican (seemingly more capitalistic) values. I's really imposible to tell which side would be trying to hold the Union together, although that would probobly be the instinctively politicalized New England and south. The Question of who would win is harder to tell than it might seem, because the military wont just instinctively side with Washington. In fact, some might might rebel purely because of that. But for the most part, the military personel will side with whatever side their state sides with. Essentially, the military would oblitherate itself in a matter of hours, even if one side is significantly larger. The smaller half would be better consealed, and therefore the attacks would be better planned and more efficiant. Essentially, it would be between the citizens. And with less potential anarchy, it would be much easier to assemble a mallitia in the midwest than anywhere else. So I think the Midwest and North Pacific would be able to either rebel from the south and east or entirely destroy it. Either way, Iran and/or China would probably take advantage of the whole situation and completely conquere us all. Canada would be laughing it's ass off the whole time and not even bother to help us. Why would they.

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North California
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Postby North California » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:16 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
North California wrote:I'd side with which ever faction wants a Constitutionally limited government, and end to the wars, legalization of drugs and gay marriage, and an end to the corporatism. Basically, which ever faction wants to get rid of the past 30+ years of shitty government (yes, Obama and Bush are included in that).


I'm all for keeping the constitution but limited government always seems to be a weak and apathetic government, that allows the plutocrats and privite interests to run the country, I support a brand of Theodore Rooselvelt federalism, strong government mixed with citizen self reliance, not the "daddy government" that limited government supporters claim it'd be. Also I find it odd how you'd side with a faction in a war that would "end the wars" isn't that kind of backwards?

I bet you're also misusing the word Corporatism.



In a limited government, private interests wouldn't receive government support (no bailouts or subsidies), and have to be able to fund themselves, so there would be no plutocracy. With that, private industry running the show would be much more cost effective, and all around better, as companies will compete with each other to treat their employees nicely and provide high quality goods, or else they get a bad reputation, and therefore, customers. I prefer a Thomas Jefferson run government, or an Andrew Jackson government (minus the killing of Natives and slavery).

And I'd side with the faction that the wars abroad, and pull our troops home from overseas. I'm all for fighting a real war that actually concerns us, and destroying someone who poses a real threat to us. However, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and North Korea are not real threats, and it is a waste of money and lives trying to fight them.

George Washington advised us not to get entangled in foreign affairs too much.

I think he's right. Look at where our meddling in other nations has gotten us? We are now in a shitload of debt and the most hated nation on Earth.

And I'm not misusing the word Corporatism.

America actually is corporatist.
Last edited by North California on Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Super Drogs
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Postby The Super Drogs » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:23 pm

When Ireland won Independence from Britain after the war of independence, it almost immediately fell into civil war over the peace treaty it had signed with Britain. There's no point going into the details because they're not relevant in this discussion, it's enough to say the two opposing sides were the "pro-treaty" side and the "anti-treaty" side.

The reason I bring it up is because something curious happened. The Irish government cabinet narrowly voted for the treaty, the Irish Parliament narrowly accepted the treaty, and in a referendum, the Irish people voted overwhelmingly in favour of the treaty. But the rank and file of the army were overwhelmingly against it and started the civil war. Again there's no need to really go into the details as to why this happened.

So we had the situation where the majority of government officials and the public were on one side but the majority of the army on the other. In any event the pro-treaty side had the finances and outside help to recruit and arm enough soldiers to win the war.

But I was wondering if something similar could happen in this hypothetical American civil war. If the war was between conservative and liberal America. I've heard that most in the military vote conservative. If the south (the conservatives) seceded, would a large number of American soldiers abandon the federal cause and join the south, bringing their arms and armour with them?

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Novairia
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Postby Novairia » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:24 pm

Jewcrew wrote:America is more 'rural VS. urban' than 'North VS. South'. I laugh pretty hard here in Canada, where we have a mix of conservative and liberal cities as well as conservative and liberal rural areas. Some of our most rural areas are hard core left wing, and some of our most urban areas are hard core right wing. Then again, 'left wing' and 'right wing' mean something completely different in Canada.


Indeed they do.. Canada :hug:
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Jewcrew
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Postby Jewcrew » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:32 pm

Norjagen wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:
No, but modern Germans don't run around with swastika bumper stickers and have learned from their past mistakes.

That would be highly illegal in modern Germany. Just throwing that out there. Anything regarding Nazist imagery and speech tends to result in a disproportionately harsh reaction from the current government. Not saying Germans are secret nazis, but even if they were, they couldn't express it, because they lack Americans' freedom of speech.


Polls show that as much as 30% of Germans would prefer Germany to have a Fuhrer than the current democratic system. That's roughly how many people voted for Hitler. Lack of free speech in Germany might very well be helping to keep the crazies down in Germany.
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Greater New York
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Postby Greater New York » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:25 pm

Jewcrew wrote:
Norjagen wrote:That would be highly illegal in modern Germany. Just throwing that out there. Anything regarding Nazist imagery and speech tends to result in a disproportionately harsh reaction from the current government. Not saying Germans are secret nazis, but even if they were, they couldn't express it, because they lack Americans' freedom of speech.


Polls show that as much as 30% of Germans would prefer Germany to have a Fuhrer than the current democratic system. That's roughly how many people voted for Hitler. Lack of free speech in Germany might very well be helping to keep the crazies down in Germany.


Do you have a source for that?
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Jewcrew
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Postby Jewcrew » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:34 pm

Greater New York wrote:
Jewcrew wrote:
Polls show that as much as 30% of Germans would prefer Germany to have a Fuhrer than the current democratic system. That's roughly how many people voted for Hitler. Lack of free speech in Germany might very well be helping to keep the crazies down in Germany.


Do you have a source for that?


I hate it when people ask me to look up things I read last year. :evil:

But I'll see if I can find it.
Zionism is the only path to peace. Masada will never fall again.

“Nobody does Israel any service by proclaiming its 'right to exist.'

Israel's right to exist, like that of the United States, Saudi Arabia and 152 other states, is axiomatic and unreserved. Israel's legitimacy is not suspended in midair awaiting acknowledgement....

There is certainly no other state, big or small, young or old, that would consider mere recognition of its 'right to exist' a favor, or a negotiable concession.” - former Israeli Foreign Affairs Minister Abba Eben

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Jewcrew
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Postby Jewcrew » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:35 pm

Zionism is the only path to peace. Masada will never fall again.

“Nobody does Israel any service by proclaiming its 'right to exist.'

Israel's right to exist, like that of the United States, Saudi Arabia and 152 other states, is axiomatic and unreserved. Israel's legitimacy is not suspended in midair awaiting acknowledgement....

There is certainly no other state, big or small, young or old, that would consider mere recognition of its 'right to exist' a favor, or a negotiable concession.” - former Israeli Foreign Affairs Minister Abba Eben

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Yankee Empire
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Postby Yankee Empire » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:34 am

North California wrote:In a limited government, private interests wouldn't receive government support (no bailouts or subsidies), and have to be able to fund themselves, so there would be no plutocracy.

I don't see that as being genuine, I mean in th 1880's America was largely plutocratic. What with J.P. Morgan , John D. Rockefeller and the Railroad trusts, an so on. They didn't need any subsidies to be plutocrats and have a huge amount of influence.

North California wrote:With that, private industry running the show would be much more cost effective, and all around better, as companies will compete with each other to treat their employees nicely and provide high quality goods, or else they get a bad reputation, and therefore, customers.

Perhaps in theory but every ideology is perfect in theory, because of our basis that everthing will go according to plan, history proves that some people will break the rules if they think it suits them.
North California wrote:I prefer a Thomas Jefferson run government, or an Andrew Jackson government (minus the killing of Natives and slavery).

I think the funny thing about them is how they caimpaigned and are often seen as supporters of limited government and such, yet once they got into office the realities of their station often changed their views on federal power, such as Jefferson making an unnauthorized purchase of land, and Jackson acting counter to a Supreme court ruling because he was Commander in chief over the army, and those are just two examples.

North California wrote:And I'd side with the faction that the wars abroad, and pull our troops home from overseas. I'm all for fighting a real war that actually concerns us, and destroying someone who poses a real threat to us. However, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and North Korea are not real threats, and it is a waste of money and lives trying to fight them.

Well first we dont have a war against Iran or North Korea( at least not yet preferably it'll stay that way) our war in Iraq has ended and our mission in afghanistan is not yet completed.
North California wrote:George Washington advised us not to get entangled in foreign affairs too much.

Yes he did but he also countered this saying later in life that we can't just be isolationists, bu few bother to remmember that.
North California wrote:I think he's right. Look at where our meddling in other nations has gotten us?

What you mean dominant nation in the world today.
North California wrote: We are now in a shitload of debt

Yes the debt is certainly a problem I agree there but i believe we have the capital to back it up if needed.
North California wrote:and the most hated nation on Earth.

I'm not sure if thats true, but people will hate you regardless of what you do, it's just more pronounced when you're a citizen of a Major world power.
North California wrote:And I'm not misusing the word Corporatism.
America actually is corporatist.

Then what is corporatism my friend? As 9 times out of 10 I see people mistaking it for Corporitocracy.
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Martean
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Postby Martean » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:44 am

Blazedtown wrote:Same reason people say the Germans will start WW3. And the whole "the south will rise again" crap.


believe, a war has started, but not with guns and bombs, but with euros and technocrats :eyebrow:
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Postby Wamitoria » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am

Jewcrew wrote:Thirteen percent, not 30%. My bad.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/10/17/1 ... ns-fuhrer/

Oh, Germany, you so xenophobic and potentially dangerous.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:02 am

Trotskylvania wrote:Any second civil war would not be a replay of the first.

Because the first one happened and the second one wouldn't happen.
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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:04 am

Ifreann wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:Any second civil war would not be a replay of the first.

Because the first one happened and the second one wouldn't happen.

Most people thought the first wouldn't happen until the mid 1850s.
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Gratislavia
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Postby Gratislavia » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:05 am

4years wrote:The south wold lose quickly. The american army is too powerful to be halted in a war like that would be. Plus it would never happen.

Assuming that the entirety of the American army would side with the Union is quite unrealistic.
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Mlewta
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Postby Mlewta » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:07 am

San-Silvacian wrote:So, lets say the South for some reason decided to revolt against the United States and all the former CSA formed another CSA and the Union and them duked it out.

Who do you think would win NSG?

I'd say the North of pretty obvious reasons.

north easy michigan has all of the tank plants so more north tanks
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Inyourfaceistan
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Postby Inyourfaceistan » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:08 am

A second American civil war isn't likely.

However, if it does happen, it would be rural v industrial
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Caj
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Postby Caj » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:10 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Shadowlandistan wrote:Personally, I'd like to see the US break up into different nations. We are SUCH a polarized country I don't see how we can keep going like this.


Been reading the Hunger Games?



More like Empire and Hidden Empire by Orson Scott Card
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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:10 am

Gratislavia wrote:
4years wrote:The south wold lose quickly. The american army is too powerful to be halted in a war like that would be. Plus it would never happen.

Assuming that the entirety of the American army would side with the Union is quite unrealistic.

Upwards of 75% would be on the side of whoever was in control of the federal gov't at the time the Civil War began.

And no, it wouldn't be North vs. South. Political divisions are not as clear cut as they were in 1860.
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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:12 am

Caj wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Been reading the Hunger Games?



More like Empire and Hidden Empire by Orson Scott Card

And, again, we aren't polarized on state or regional lines. We're polarized on rural vs. urban lines.
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Of the Quendi
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Postby Of the Quendi » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:13 am

Chuck Norris would singlehandedly conquer the North in a heartbeat by (insert prefered impossible herculean feat here). :p

Seriously if that ever happened I don't see what forces the South would be able to count on in such an insurrection. Seeing as they would be at an economic, population and military disadvantage they would quickly be defeated.
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Caj
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Ex-Nation

Postby Caj » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:16 am

I... I really don't know how to respond to this. Purple, because aliens don't wear hats?


Where did the purple thing come from? I learned it from my friend, and put it on my regions profile, but is it common aside from us?
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

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