California May Ban "Gay Conversion" Therapy

[Grenartia]

Yes I did equate homosexuality to incest, because from an unbiased point of view, homosexuality, bestiality, incest, paedeophilia, and necrophilia are really should all be legal or all be illegal, you have to be consistent. And in response to everyone saying sex change and this are not the same, if someone wants to change, or at leaast ATTEMPT to change who they are, why not let them?

This law is only keeping minors from being sent to those camps.

Also:

Homosexuality-> two consenting adults-> should be legal
Beastiality-> a person and an animal, who can't consent-> should be illegal
Incest-> can be between two consenting adults, but is usually between an adult and a child-> Should be legal only between consenting adults
Pedophilia-> between an adult and a child-> should be illegal

People open your eyes!! This is basically like banning sex change surgery.

Except, minors aren't allowed to have sex change surgery, either.

Ridiculous. If people want to go to some strange "gay conversion" therapies, they should be allowed to go there. Btw, how would you be sure I can't brainwash you into becoming gay/straight/bi/bdsm/...?

Its mainly being put in place to keep homophobic parents from shipping their LGBT kids off to 'pray away the gay' camps where they can be abused.


Also, its pretty well shown that you can't force a sexual orientation down somebody's throat. And, BDSM isn't a sexual orientation.

Make it nationwide.

Dear merciful Jesus, please let this happen.

Because very rarely do the people enrolled in such "therapies" enroll by choice.

I put the right of the individual above the right of the parent to force their children to conform to their absurd and puerile worldview.

Ok, then don't ban the therapies, ban forced enrolment.

How the fuck do you tell if the enrollment is forced or not? Do you have some sort of magic truth machine?

Seriously, though. If somebody was holding a gun to your head (in such a way that it wouldn't be visible, and told you that if you said a word about a gun being to your head, they'd pull the trigger), and somebody else asked you if there was a gun being held to your head, would you say there was?

And how do you enforce it?

Parents say didn't do that. Indoctrinator says didn't do that.

For example, require counselling with a social worker (psychologist) prior to allowing the child to go to such therapy. It should be fairly simple for a skilled psychologist to tell if the child is being forced to go there or not and give green or red light accordingly.

And if the psychologist is biased? Or just plain unskilled?

One of my exes has a problem in that her psychologist is so fucking biased that she can't tell her anything. Essentially, her parents (who are most of the problem), are paying for her to lie to a therapist.

I had a similar problem myself.

Just another reason why I hate California aside from its lack of seasons.

Lemme get this straight. 1. People voluntarily go to these camps. 2. They do not like being gay. 3. Because the service is rather stupid, it must be banned, 4. even though people do want to become heterosexual (and think they are, whatever).

1. Not usually.

2. Actually, most of the time, they like it very much.

3. Actually, because a lot of the time, the people in the camps are being abused.

4. No. Their homophobic parents want them to be heterosexual.

Though I don't know if I agree with "Gay Conversion" Therapy, I heartily disagree with this bill. It's not the government's job to do this, it's not endangering anyone physically to my knowledge, and it doesn't breach individual rights.

Actually, it does often endanger those who are in the programs, mentally and emotionally, which are arguably worse than being physically endangered, and since most of those who are in the programs are being put in them against their will, their rights are being breached. Nice try, though.

[Northern Dominus]

Link.

Essentially, the California Legislature is voting on a bill that will prohibit licensed therapists and psychiatrists from offering "ex-gay", or "conversion" therapy. This is a form of therapy (mostly) offered by Christian therapists that purports to offer a "cure" for same-sex attraction. It is not supported by the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, or any other legitimate medical organization.

Personally, I think that this is long overdue. Churches and other religious institutions may still offer it under the guise of "spiritual counseling" or some such thing, but otherwise, it will be considered the legal and ethical equivalent of peddling snake oil.

It's a start, but not good enough.

Not only should the ban be nation-wide and total including religious organizations but practicing any sort of "repairative" or "conversion" therapy should be considered abuse and torture and punishable under federal law as such.

Still, it's a good start, and hopefully this passes with more gusto than Prop 8 did.

[Madredia]

Just throwing this out there, but you know, he Earth was once the center of the solar system under "scientific consensus" Religious Dogma

You had some bullshit there, I fixed it for you.

Absolutely untrue. Scientists of the time believed the earth was the center of the solar system. Additionally there have been many different models of the atom which were once considered to be fact by scientific consensus and were later proven wrong.

[Divair]

You had some bullshit there, I fixed it for you.

Absolutely untrue. Scientists of the time believed the earth was the center of the solar system. Additionally there have been many different models of the atom which were once considered to be fact by scientific consensus and were later proven wrong.

Yes, "scientists". Do go on.

[Spritalia]

Yes. Those hellish places.

The majority of us aren't. The only one here who is defending them is Madredia as far as I can tell.

That was basically my general question towards them. (Trying not call anyone out!)

[Genivaria]

You had some bullshit there, I fixed it for you.

Absolutely untrue. Scientists of the time believed the earth was the center of the solar system. Additionally there have been many different models of the atom which were once considered to be fact by scientific consensus and were later proven wrong.

You have a very warped view of history.

[United States of Republicans]

Go California, after banning Gay Conversion will Congressmen's and Senators likely to Washington to ban Gay Marriage?

[Madredia]

Absolutely untrue. Scientists of the time believed the earth was the center of the solar system. Additionally there have been many different models of the atom which were once considered to be fact by scientific consensus and were later proven wrong.

Yes, "scientists". Do go on.

Are you questioning the fact that J.J Thompson (who's atomic model was proved wrong) was a scientist. What I'm trying to say is that many things which were agreed upon by "scientific consensus have been disproved. But I suppose you have to go off something to support an argument.

[The Theban Legion]

I would be fine with this if only adults were allowed to attend... If they want to, of their own choosing, have someone "beat" them until the gay "falls out" I would be fine.

[Divair]

Go California, after banning Gay Conversion will Congressmen's and Senators likely to Washington to ban Gay Marriage?

Lol'd because you don't understand what this is.

[Dyakovo]

Hmmm, that's a shame...
It's a good start though.

And why is that a shame? An adult can decide whatever counseling he/she wants to go for

Gay conversion 'therapy' is never a good thing. You're much better of just accepting who you are.

[Genivaria]

Yes, "scientists". Do go on.

Are you questioning the fact that J.J Thompson (who's atomic model was proved wrong) was a scientist. What I'm trying to say is that many things which were agreed upon by "scientific consensus have been disproved. But I suppose you have to go off something to support an argument.

Yes that is a strength of Science it actually accepts that it was wrong and moves on.
Sadly that is not a principal that was held by the Church back when people thought that the Earth was the center of the universe.

[Madredia]

Someone answer this question. If the "Insane Fitness Workout" didn't work, and left everyone who tried it feeling much worse about themselves than it did before, should there be a state law banning it?

[United States of Republicans]

Go California, after banning Gay Conversion will Congressmen's and Senators likely to Washington to ban Gay Marriage?

Lol'd because you don't understand what this is.

Well then IDK

[Genivaria]

Someone answer this question. If the "Insane Fitness Workout" didn't work, and left everyone who tried it feeling much worse about themselves than it did before, should there be a state law banning it?

There should be a state law banning forcing children to attend yes.

[Leepaidamba]

Absolutely untrue. Scientists of the time believed the earth was the center of the solar system. Additionally there have been many different models of the atom which were once considered to be fact by scientific consensus and were later proven wrong.

You have a very warped view of history.

And even if he hasn't, he's still wrong about the present. You don't go by anything other than the scientific consensus in policy making. If the consensus were presently that the earth were the venter of the solar system, that's what we'd have to work with. It might seem ridiculous put like this but the other option is to disregard the scientific consensus altogether, which is certainly more ridiculous.

[The House of Petain]

Just throwing this out there, but you know, he Earth was once the center of the solar system under "scientific consensus" Religious Dogma

You had some bullshit there, I fixed it for you.

Er, it was actually the Ancient Greeks (who was before the Church) that adhered to the geocentric model...

[Dyakovo]

Someone answer this question. If the "Insane Fitness Workout" didn't work, and left everyone who tried it feeling much worse about themselves than it did before, should there be a state law banning it?

Are people often forced to participate in the Insane Fitness Workout and are they publicly ridiculed and abused if they don't?

[Northern Dominus]

Someone answer this question. If the "Insane Fitness Workout" didn't work, and left everyone who tried it feeling much worse about themselves than it did before, should there be a state law banning it?

Classy, equating a crappy self-exercise DVD to what pretty much amounts to brainwashing and torture.

Real classy there, that simultaneous false equivalence and straw man.

http://www.lanthorn.com/article/2010/04 ... #comment14

[Madredia]

Are you questioning the fact that J.J Thompson (who's atomic model was proved wrong) was a scientist. What I'm trying to say is that many things which were agreed upon by "scientific consensus have been disproved. But I suppose you have to go off something to support an argument.

Yes that is a strength of Science it actually accepts that it was wrong and moves on.
Sadly that is not a principal that was held by the Church back when people thought that the Earth was the center of the universe.

Again going back to the Church. Thats not what this is about. Can people just stop persecuting Christians? I know Jesus said it would be bad but geez. Thats not the topic of this discussion. My point was that perhaps you can be an ex-homosexual, and Science hasn't yet discovered that it it is wrong on that issue. If I was a an ex homosexual I would be pretty pissed that I had gone through all that work and people are telling me "it doesn't exist" So what, someone can become a homosexual later in life but it can't go the other way.

[Leepaidamba]

Someone answer this question. If the "Insane Fitness Workout" didn't work, and left everyone who tried it feeling much worse about themselves than it did before, should there be a state law banning it?

I think that could be banned under the same principles used to ban comercials spreading lies: you're selling a product known not to do what it claims to do.

[Madredia]

Someone answer this question. If the "Insane Fitness Workout" didn't work, and left everyone who tried it feeling much worse about themselves than it did before, should there be a state law banning it?

Classy, equating a crappy self-exercise DVD to what pretty much amounts to brainwashing and torture.

Real classy there, that simultaneous false equivalence and straw man.

http://www.lanthorn.com/article/2010/04 ... #comment14[/quote/]


People LISTEN TO WHAT I'M SAYING. Torture is illegal if someone is torturing someone else ARREST THEM. If parents force their child into torture TAKE THE CHILD AWAY. SIMPLE! No need for any new law.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Are you questioning the fact that J.J Thompson (who's atomic model was proved wrong) was a scientist. What I'm trying to say is that many things which were agreed upon by "scientific consensus have been disproved. But I suppose you have to go off something to support an argument.

OK. It's now your turn to change history in the scientific realm. You've been presented with the results of the APA's analysis of conversion therapy, but you feel these results are scientifically unsound. Just as Thompson's "plum pudding" model of the atom was eliminated by Rutherford's discovery of a positive nucleus in his famous gold foil experiment, it's your time to shine. Destroy the APA's findings with your own, Dr. Madredia.

[Northern Dominus]

Yes that is a strength of Science it actually accepts that it was wrong and moves on.
Sadly that is not a principal that was held by the Church back when people thought that the Earth was the center of the universe.

Again going back to the Church. Thats not what this is about. Can people just stop persecuting Christians? I know Jesus said it would be bad but geez. Thats not the topic of this discussion. My point was that perhaps you can be an ex-homosexual, and Science hasn't yet discovered that it it is wrong on that issue. If I was a an ex homosexual I would be pretty pissed that I had gone through all that work and people are telling me "it doesn't exist" So what, someone can become a homosexual later in life but it can't go the other way.

Christians...

You mean hate groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, the American Family Association or the Family Research Council who are all confirmed hate groups that claim to hold christian ideals?

Hmm let me see.... nope, they get persecuted until they either A. Disband and leave the rest of us in peace or B. All die in a fire, simultaneously. Personally the latter would be funnier but I digress.

Classy, equating a crappy self-exercise DVD to what pretty much amounts to brainwashing and torture.

Real classy there, that simultaneous false equivalence and straw man.

http://www.lanthorn.com/article/2010/04 ... #comment14[/quote/]


People LISTEN TO WHAT I'M SAYING. Torture is illegal if someone is torturing someone else ARREST THEM. If parents force their child into torture TAKE THE CHILD AWAY. SIMPLE! No need for any new law.

Right, and since torture is illegal, and conversion therapy is torture it should be blanket-banned and practicing it should be punishable under applicable federal law.

See it's simple isn't it?

[Madredia]

You had some bullshit there, I fixed it for you.

Er, it was actually the Ancient Greeks (who was before the Church) that adhered to the geocentric model...

Thank You.