NationStates

Not a thread specifically about 'American exceptionalism' but rather I use this in the title to distinguish this from the many threads asking what people think of America.

I am sure we are all aware that the US has stereotypically viewed itself as the perfect form of government at the end of history (à la Fukuyama) and Gods Kingdom on Earth. There is not much debating the existence of this belief that has manifested itself from the very first puritan settlers or otherwise trying to put it in comparison to how other nations have viewed their place in the world (yeah, hyper-religious Ugandans are basically Britain's fault but try and find anything in Disraeli that matches Neo-conservative foreign policy).

The question is just how dangerous this makes the United States; one of the few nations of the world in which its leaders can talk of God telling them to go to war, one that will actively ignore the truth when it challenges its view of reality, and one that imposes its model onto the world. Similar regimes may have existed in Revolutionary France or Soviet Russia but the US variant of a capitalist end of history has been projecting itself for over 200 years now and remains embedded in the American conciousness. Make no mistake the biggest flaw in any post-apocalyptic story is the lack of little American flags everywhere even after the bombs fall.

Its not enough to merely put this away as simple flag waving or the evil shenanigans of an elite, we have a nation using demonology in its language in a war against "terror" which is not bound by secular law (or the opinions of its divine founding fathers), with a lobby that is actively working towards the final confrontation with evil on the plains of Armageddon. The American population is batshit and could at any moment turn on its allies -as I suppose it has already done so with the abduction and torture of foreign citizens. Not bound by law or reason.

So far no nation since the fall of communism has posed a threat to the United States and its only conceivable opponents are either a humbled Russia that thankfully has its own disorder of Orthodox opposition or a China that refuses to confront the US. This does not of course mean that organizations such as the European Union cannot be painted as agents of the devil despite its place as a bastion of neo-liberal thought and it does not mean that our current world order is stable but rather that currently America can afford to ignore reality.

The question of the thread then is what happens when the America can no longer afford to ignore reality and how it comes to terms with that when in the next century it may find itself in 1965 all over again -only this time as a declining power. We know what happens to madmen in the face of adversity, will the same be true when it comes to a question of nuclear war and how can the rest of the world seek to stop that from occurring?

Most of the American's I've met here are generally aware that America isn't perfect, so I would ask for sources to back your claim. As for America falling, I really don't see that happening until the next century at least.

Governments are made up of people, some of them are pretty nasty. But overall America isn't any more a threat to the world than China, Russia and other countries with large economies and military forces.

Call to power wrote:The question of the thread then is what happens when the America can no longer afford to ignore reality and how it comes to terms with that when in the next century it may find itself in 1965 all over again -only this time as a declining power. We know what happens to madmen in the face of adversity, will the same be true when it comes to a question of nuclear war and how can the rest of the world seek to stop that from occurring?

You'll just have to prop us up or face extinction.

I can't see the USA as a threat to the world, but being a superpower after defeating the Axis powers comes with great responsibility today, and one terrible mistake can have the press and people go against you, and it is the same for Russia and China.

Of course, every country has a tendency to claim themselves as the best in the world. The best country into the world, in reality, is hard to determine due to varied political views and so on.

I think you're overlooking a lot of important facts.

Throughout American history the idea that we're blessed by God isn't the reason we go to war, nor has any American leader actually invoked God's favor as an actual casus belli. Now, that dosen't mean that they haven't stated such things before, all speechmaking of course.

The first example is America westward expansion and the whole "Manifest Destiny". Did our leaders seriously think that Americans were sent to Earth to expand to the Pacific, not in the least bit; however, it did provide an awfully good justification for us to clear out any native peoples that were already living there.

Fast forward to about every single war we've fought. I'm sure at least once in each of them, a leader probably rambled something about God being on our side or that we're fighting for God, but the fact of the matter is that they were rational enough to have reasons other than God directing their foreign policy. Does it sound nice that God's being invoked to the public, of course, but for any modern listener to hear these speeches and think that we were going off to fight Germans, Vietnamese, or Iraqis because God told our leader to do so is an act of willful ignorance.

Call to power wrote:Its not enough to merely put this away as simple flag waving or the evil shenanigans of an elite, we have a nation using demonology in its language in a war against "terror" which is not bound by secular law (or the opinions of its divine founding fathers), with a lobby that is actively working towards the final confrontation with evil on the plains of Armageddon. The American population is batshit and could at any moment turn on its allies -as I suppose it has already done so with the abduction and torture of foreign citizens. Not bound by law or reason.

I also don't know what "divine law" you're referencing that Americans have used to justify the abduction and torture of foreign citizens or any president that's actively working for a final confrontation with evil. Do we have some crazy politicians who are pushing for such things? Yes. It helps though that we have many more politicians who prefer to put American interests above ambiguous lines from a book that was possibly written as a subversive text against the Roman Empire instead of an actual prophecy.

I also take offense at you insinuation that the American population is "batshit and could at any moment turn on its allies". I highly doubt that we're going to at any moment decide to invade Canada or Britain, and again any serious thought of this is an act of willing ignorance.

It's an interesting train of thought.

I am sure we are all aware that the US has stereotypically viewed itself as the perfect form of government at the end of history (à la Fukuyama) and Gods Kingdom on Earth. There is not much debating the existence of this belief that has manifested itself from the very first puritan settlers or otherwise trying to put it in comparison to how other nations have viewed their place in the world (yeah, hyper-religious Ugandans are basically Britain's fault but try and find anything in Disraeli that matches Neo-conservative foreign policy).

I have never had the sense that the United States views itself as perfect. The form of government is constitutional republic; John Adams defined a republic as "a government of laws, and not of men. A constitutional republic is a state in which the head of state and other officials are representatives of the people and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over all of its citizens. It's ideal in many ways, however it is only as strong as the people. It's also a clusterphuck when attempting to get anything resolved ergo the open (and irritating) hostility between political parties. It flies in the face of monarchy and dictatorship. I think it's safe to say that most American citizens feel that a constitutional republic is the way to go, and they would like to see other nations follow suit.

The question is just how dangerous this makes the United States; one of the few nations of the world in which its leaders can talk of God telling them to go to war, one that will actively ignore the truth when it challenges its view of reality, and one that imposes its model onto the world.

I think you might be adding a bit of religious fanaticism here. The sense of leaders being appointed by God simply isn't to be found.(Ra/Osiris 2012!) Many Presidents and other leaders have said that they have reached a decision after prayerful thought, but consider the era. Until recently, the predominant religion was Christian.

Truth is relative. There is my truth, and then there is your truth... and there is the truth itself. Our truths are based upon perceptions, opinions, life events, culture and environment.

Similar regimes may have existed in Revolutionary France or Soviet Russia but the US variant of a capitalist end of history has been projecting itself for over 200 years now and remains embedded in the American conciousness. Make no mistake the biggest flaw in any post-apocalyptic story is the lack of little American flags everywhere even after the bombs fall.

Its not enough to merely put this away as simple flag waving or the evil shenanigans of an elite, we have a nation using demonology in its language in a war against "terror" which is not bound by secular law (or the opinions of its divine founding fathers), with a lobby that is actively working towards the final confrontation with evil on the plains of Armageddon. The American population is batshit and could at any moment turn on its allies -as I suppose it has already done so with the abduction and torture of foreign citizens. Not bound by law or reason.

I don't know where these notions come from. The only thing I will agree with is that a large percentage of the American population is indeed batshit crazy. It's selfish, narcissistic, focused on each person's own agenda and inconsiderate (and often intolerant) of those who have different opinions, agendas or needs.

So far no nation since the fall of communism has posed a threat to the United States and its only conceivable opponents are either a humbled Russia that thankfully has its own disorder of Orthodox opposition or a China that refuses to confront the US. This does not of course mean that organizations such as the European Union cannot be painted as agents of the devil despite its place as a bastion of neo-liberal thought and it does not mean that our current world order is stable but rather that currently America can afford to ignore reality.

This would depend upon what you would consider a threat. Nuclear threat? Biological threat? Threat upon the safety of citizens? Who has painted the EU or NATO or other organizations as agents of the devil?

The question of the thread then is what happens when the America can no longer afford to ignore reality and how it comes to terms with that when in the next century it may find itself in 1965 all over again -only this time as a declining power. We know what happens to madmen in the face of adversity, will the same be true when it comes to a question of nuclear war and how can the rest of the world seek to stop that from occurring?

The United States will not use nuclear war. If it falls, it will crumble from within. The Land of Freedom, the place of shelter for the oppressed and huddled masses, the last bastion of civil rights and liberty... or however else the world and the USA chooses to define the USA... are wonderful epitaphs for a country whose people have grown bitter; many Americans lack a sense of patriotism (no, not that silly Tea Party flag waving sort, either!) They have forgotten what it means to be American. They are not devoted to their country or the concepts behind it. Rather, many have a false sense of entitlement and believe that everyone elses rights end where theirs begin.

That will be America's downfall, I believe. It won't come in a nuclear blast but the fallout might effect the rest of the world.

ITT: Ignorant people fear things they don't understand, suspect foreigners are robots.

Hey NS. As much as I take offense at times to insinuations of American policies or certain policy makers, I think America is in ways out of place. I can't see what the US being a threat is about though. Can anybody explain more clearly why?

Lackadaisical2 wrote:

Call to power wrote:The question of the thread then is what happens when the America can no longer afford to ignore reality and how it comes to terms with that when in the next century it may find itself in 1965 all over again -only this time as a declining power. We know what happens to madmen in the face of adversity, will the same be true when it comes to a question of nuclear war and how can the rest of the world seek to stop that from occurring?

You'll just have to prop us up or face extinction.

Like what happened to the Sov-Oh wait, no we don't

The fact that you are British makes me a little less trustworthy of your views on what Americans believe.

We've never invaded someone for religious beliefs.

Call to power wrote:
The question of the thread then is what happens when the America can no longer afford to ignore reality and how it comes to terms with that when in the next century it may find itself in 1965 all over again -only this time as a declining power. We know what happens to madmen in the face of adversity, will the same be true when it comes to a question of nuclear war and how can the rest of the world seek to stop that from occurring?

What reality are we ignoring? What nuclear war are you talking about? The US vs China? And the US is not destined to decline. We have all the tools necessary to remain at the top for a long time to come...though change and hard work are necessary.

The rest of the world cannot do a thing if the US chooses nuclear war. The US may be able to do something if other nations chose nuclear war, enough to perhaps prevent extinction, but if a nation like the US or Russia choose to embark on nuclear war everyone else will be dragged down in flames with them.

Also, most of what you said in the OP is exaggerated a bit ludicrous.

I have to say, most Americans are very aware that our country is far from perfect, although we have different ideas on what it should be like. What we abound in though, is patriotism, which means we love our country despite its flaws. America's flaws include, high divorce rate, STD pandemic, lack of spirituality, legalized abortion, high pre-marital sex rates, incompetant Federal government that can't pass a balanced budget, same situation in many States to, being the largest drug consumer in the world, persecution of religious institutions.

Indira wrote:Most of the American's I've met here are generally aware that America isn't perfect, so I would ask for sources to back your claim.

1. I made a point early on of mentioning stereotypically for the very reason of keeping 'dats racis' types like yourself away.
2. A very depressing statistic comes from a Newsweek poll which found that:

Twenty-nine percent believe the United States is a Christian nation, and another 16 percent believe the United States is a Biblical nation, defined by the Judeo-Christian tradition.

CNN -which is sourcing a Newsweek poll

A large slice of the American public at the time of the poll believed that the US was a Christian nation. I will let you have a think about what that entails and why, in contrast to Blair, Bush presented an image of an evangelical Christian leader.

Indira wrote:As for America falling, I really don't see that happening until the next century at least.

Its not such a case of America falling in some dramatic way but rather the emergence of great powers that can challenge it on their home turf and how America reacts to this. For instance see the insane paranoia at the moment in reference to China.

Lackadaisical2 wrote:You'll just have to prop us up or face extinction.

But...

Corporate Councils wrote:The first example is America westward expansion and the whole "Manifest Destiny". Did our leaders seriously think that Americans were sent to Earth to expand to the Pacific, not in the least bit; however, it did provide an awfully good justification for us to clear out any native peoples that were already living there.

And it worked because America believed itself to be a special example, a sort of Messiah and its a belief that continues on in the American attempts to spread its version of democracy around the world. This may be the very root of the problem for if America is the divine force for good in the world then all who oppose it are in league with the forces of darkness, or as Bush put it in an address to a joint session of Congress "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." -which is a textbook example of Manichaeism in action.

Corporate Councils wrote:I also don't know what "divine law" you're referencing that Americans have used to justify the abduction and torture of foreign citizens

You're misreading what I said, I was referencing Washington's opposition to the use of torture which has been ignored in a nation that views him with some level of divinity

Corporate Councils wrote:Do we have some crazy politicians who are pushing for such things? Yes. It helps though that we have many more politicians who prefer to put American interests above ambiguous lines from a book that was possibly written as a subversive text against the Roman Empire instead of an actual prophecy.

Only you do have a large lobby calling for this and it influences US policy.

Corporate Councils wrote:I also take offense at you insinuation that the American population

oh dear.

Swith Witherward wrote:It's an interesting train of thought.

I'm just channelling some John Gray and seeing how NS takes to it.

Swith Witherward wrote:It's ideal in many ways, however it is only as strong as the people. It's also a clusterphuck when attempting to get anything resolved ergo the open (and irritating) hostility between political parties. It flies in the face of monarchy and dictatorship. I think it's safe to say that most American citizens feel that a constitutional republic is the way to go, and they would like to see other nations follow suit.

The key point is that the US is not like the rest of the world and its a fair criticism of American foreign policy that it has frequently ignored the lesson that you can't just walk into a foreign land and suddenly create a liberal democracy as evidenced by the experience of the former Soviet Union.

Swith Witherward wrote:I think you might be adding a bit of religious fanaticism here. The sense of leaders being appointed by God simply isn't to be found.(Ra/Osiris 2012!) Many Presidents and other leaders have said that they have reached a decision after prayerful thought, but consider the era. Until recently, the predominant religion was Christian.

Consider that no other industrialised nation I can think of would consider mentioning how God told you to strike an enemy as anything but political suicide.

Swith Witherward wrote:Truth is relative. There is my truth, and then there is your truth... and there is the truth itself. Our truths are based upon perceptions, opinions, life events, culture and environment.

Then there is the truth that Saddam Hussain had links to Al Qaeda and the ability to strike Britain in 45 minutes. Truth that was only reached after ignoring and doctoring all the evidence.

Yes life has its subjectivity but it tends to be considered madness if you just ignore reality entirely to fit your world-view and it poses all sorts of problems when a state prone to paranoia is wondering about the Earth. This is not of course a new problem, throughout the Cold War the US was absolutely mental in its assessment of the Soviet Union.

Trollgaard wrote:

Call to power wrote:
The question of the thread then is what happens when the America can no longer afford to ignore reality and how it comes to terms with that when in the next century it may find itself in 1965 all over again -only this time as a declining power. We know what happens to madmen in the face of adversity, will the same be true when it comes to a question of nuclear war and how can the rest of the world seek to stop that from occurring?

What reality are we ignoring? What nuclear war are you talking about? The US vs China? And the US is not destined to decline. We have all the tools necessary to remain at the top for a long time to come...though change and hard work are necessary.

The rest of the world cannot do a thing if the US chooses nuclear war. The US may be able to do something if other nations chose nuclear war, enough to perhaps prevent extinction, but if a nation like the US or Russia choose to embark on nuclear war everyone else will be dragged down in flames with them.

Actually nuclear war is not the world ending scenario that many would have folks believe. The idea of an irradiated world is bunk and the idea of nuclear winter is bunk.

Trollgaard wrote:

Call to power wrote:
The question of the thread then is what happens when the America can no longer afford to ignore reality and how it comes to terms with that when in the next century it may find itself in 1965 all over again -only this time as a declining power. We know what happens to madmen in the face of adversity, will the same be true when it comes to a question of nuclear war and how can the rest of the world seek to stop that from occurring?

What reality are we ignoring? What nuclear war are you talking about? The US vs China? And the US is not destined to decline. We have all the tools necessary to remain at the top for a long time to come...though change and hard work are necessary.

The rest of the world cannot do a thing if the US chooses nuclear war. The US may be able to do something if other nations chose nuclear war, enough to perhaps prevent extinction, but if a nation like the US or Russia choose to embark on nuclear war everyone else will be dragged down in flames with them.

I agree Trollgaard. The US will be able to remain top dog for a long time to come if its citizens make the right decisions in choosing our leaders, a choice no other fallen power really had the oppurtunity to do when it was at its crossroads. Britain is an exception since all of their empire seceded (So I guess the US could fall if a bunch of the states seceded and we were unable to bring them back into the fold) and their military was destroyed in a war with Germany, however, the US has the territory to maintain its own power and if things change, the States will have the incentive to continue to stay in the Union. However, we are at a crossroads and I beieve that if we don't choose the right leaders this year, than America will decline and be no longer a superpower, although it will probably maintain the ability to jump back to superpower status within a lifetimes notice if our form of government and economy are able to survive long enough to be revived quickly.

Vordergrundig wrote:Hey NS. As much as I take offense at times to insinuations of American policies or certain policy makers, I think America is in ways out of place. I can't see what the US being a threat is about though. Can anybody explain more clearly why?

It's all a matter of perspective. To people in countries that have some of the same laws, principles, forms of government, etc or people who support said principle wherever they, America usually won't be seen as a threat. Take for instance a person in the Netherlands who may believe in neoconservative interventionism or something similar. If they believe that Western ideas, values, and forms of government should be spread around the world and everyone should follow them; that person probably won't think of America as a threat, probably the opposite in fact. Compare that to a person in the Middle East whom wants his country to practice Sharia law, moderate or extreme regardless, and he see's America trying to cram its own ideals down his throat even when he doesn't agree with them. He'll see America as a threat because of this. Given America's attitude at times, you can see why it might be viewed as a threat by some people/countries. Whether you agree with that view is entirely up to you.

America isn't a threat to the world, we're the only hope it has.

Call to power wrote:

Indira wrote:
And it worked because America believed itself to be a special example, a sort of Messiah and its a belief that continues on in the American attempts to spread its version of democracy around the world. This may be the very root of the problem for if America is the divine force for good in the world then all who oppose it are in league with the forces of darkness, or as Bush put it in an address to a joint session of Congress "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." -which is a textbook example of Manichaeism in action.

I do not think that America is the Messiah nation, but I do agree with Mr. Bush on that one. It seems kind of hard to be neutral on a terrorist war against any country since terrorists have a habit of attacking civilians. You either support the destruction of the country, or at the very least you oppose the sloaughter of innocent civilians within the country.

Gettinf real fucking tired of these anti-american threads. Lets get one thing straight, in terms of past superpowers, the US is the best the world has had. Out of all the wars in which the US has conquered territory, find one instance in which it took that land for its own, besides the revolution.

Tunasai wrote:Gettinf real fucking tired of these anti-american threads. Lets get one thing straight, in terms of past superpowers, the US is the best the world has had. Out of all the wars in which the US has conquered territory, find one instance in which it took that land for its own, besides the revolution.

*cough* The Philippines *cough*

Napkiraly wrote:

Tunasai wrote:Gettinf real fucking tired of these anti-american threads. Lets get one thing straight, in terms of past superpowers, the US is the best the world has had. Out of all the wars in which the US has conquered territory, find one instance in which it took that land for its own, besides the revolution.

*cough* The Philippines *cough*

Hmm got me there, we did however release it after WWII and help set up a better system of government

Tunasai wrote:Gettinf real fucking tired of these anti-american threads. Lets get one thing straight, in terms of past superpowers, the US is the best the world has had. Out of all the wars in which the US has conquered territory, find one instance in which it took that land for its own, besides the revolution.

The American-Indian wars.

The Mexican-American war.

The Spanish-American war.

Not to say the OP isn't paranoid and rambling, but there are such instances in our past.

Tunasai wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:*cough* The Philippines *cough*

Hmm got me there, we did however release it after WWII and help set up a better system of government

Which could have come sooner if America hadn't annexed it, since the point of the Filipino revolution was to establish an independent republic.