Scottish independence?

[Parastovia]

I'd like to see this, if only because a new country isn't started every day.

It's not like Scotland will become a country once it becomes independent, it already is a country, but I understand what you're saying.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

FREEEEEEEEEEDOM

Oh man, I hope someone puts Mel Gibson on some pro-independence campaign posters.

I'm sure the poster would say:

"SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE NOW!*"

*No Jews.

[The Archregimancy]

He appeals to the younger generation of Scots. The point is he would have been my king. If the Hanoverian government hadnt kicked him out.

The 'Hanoverian government' didn't 'kick' anyone out.

James II and VII was deposed because the English governing elite were opposed to a Catholic succession. Without any involvement from Hanover, the English gentry invited James' Dutch son-in-law William of Orange to invade England and depose James in 1688.

The succession devolved on the Hanoverians via the English 1701 Act of Settlement. This stated that after Anne's death the throne would pass to the nearest Protestant heir - James I and VI's granddaughter Sophia, Electress of Hanover. One of the causes of the 1707 Act of Union between England and Scotland was the perceived need to harmonise the succession laws of both kingdoms.

That the Act of Settlement declared that the Hanoverians would inherit the throne was a decision of English Whigs; it had nothing to do with any putative 'Hanoverian government' because the decision wasn't made by the government of Hanover, nor were the Hanoverian dynasty on the throne in any part of Britain when the decision was made.

And the idea that the placement of of a 78 year old Bavarian on a putative Scottish throne appeals to anyone, never mind the 'younger generation of Scots', is farcical.

[Ifreann]

Oh man, I hope someone puts Mel Gibson on some pro-independence campaign posters.

I'm sure the poster would say:

"SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE NOW!*"

*No Jews.

Something like that, yes.

[Lemmingtopias]

Unless a person is Scottish or lives in Scotland then it is, quite frankly, none of their business, surely?

[Stovokor]

I am American, but I have Scottish in me, so i think Scotland should gain independence

I don't want to live on this planet anymore, thank you.

[Tagmatium]

Unless a person is Scottish or lives in Scotland then it is, quite frankly, none of their business, surely?

Probably could be argued that it is also a British issue, what with it being a constituent of the United Kingdom.

Albeit that probably opens up another can of worms.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Unless a person is Scottish or lives in Scotland then it is, quite frankly, none of their business, surely?

Since it would affect the people of Wales, England, and Northern Ireland too, i.e. the nature of their Union too, I would disagree.

I'm a Canadian, and it'd be like telling me I had no say in Quebec's independence referendum in 1995...uh, no.

[Ifreann]

Unless a person is Scottish or lives in Scotland then it is, quite frankly, none of their business, surely?

That hardly prevents them from forming or expressing their opinion.

[Keronians]

Unless a person is Scottish or lives in Scotland then it is, quite frankly, none of their business, surely?

Opinions should be welcome from wherever they come. If we had told America to mind its own business when it came up with the Marshall Plan, western Europe would be decades behind where it is today.

Anyway, why isn't it the business of British citizens? And, to a lesser extent, European citizens?

[Carbarosia]

It's their choice.

[Farnhamia]

That's debatable...Parliament thinks James II abdicated by tossing the Great Seal of the Realm into the drink, and as the Monarch is the keeper and holder of the Seal, by throwing it away, it was symbolic of his abdication of his kingship...I know it's a stretch, but they went with it, ran with it, and the rest, is history.

I was told he dropped it.

If the Jacobite army hadnt been stopped by false infomation in the 1745 war then he would be the reigning monarch anyway.

I thought the Jabobite army was stopped in 1745 by Sempill's 25th Foot, Conway's 59th Foot, and Wolfe's 8th Foot, plus Bligh's 20th Foot, some good artillery work and the mulish stubbornness of the MacDonalds, who were angry at having been posted on the left of the line and so refused to charge.

[The Realm of God]

He appeals to the younger generation of Scots. The point is he would have been my king. If the Hanoverian government hadnt kicked him out.

The 'Hanoverian government' didn't 'kick' anyone out.

James II and VII was deposed because the English governing elite were opposed to a Catholic succession. Without any involvement from Hanover, the English gentry invited James' Dutch son-in-law William of Orange to invade England and depose James in 1688.

The succession devolved on the Hanoverians via the English 1701 Act of Settlement. This stated that after Anne's death the throne would pass to the nearest Protestant heir - James I and VI's granddaughter Sophia, Electress of Hanover. One of the causes of the 1707 Act of Union between England and Scotland was the perceived need to harmonise the succession laws of both kingdoms.

That the Act of Settlement declared that the Hanoverians would inherit the throne was a decision of English Whigs; it had nothing to do with any putative 'Hanoverian government' because the decision wasn't made by the government of Hanover, nor were the Hanoverian dynasty on the throne in any part of Britain when the decision was made.

And the idea that the placement of of a 78 year old Bavarian on a putative Scottish throne appeals to anyone, never mind the 'younger generation of Scots', is farcical.

The idea of putting a 78 year old Bavarian on the throne may appeal to patriotic anglophobic Scots.

because.

A. He's not English.
B. He's descended from Bonnie Prince Charlie.

[Tagmatium]

I was told he dropped it.

If the Jacobite army hadnt been stopped by false infomation in the 1745 war then he would be the reigning monarch anyway.

I thought the Jabobite army was stopped in 1745 by Sempill's 25th Foot, Conway's 59th Foot, and Wolfe's 8th Foot, plus Bligh's 20th Foot, some good artillery work and the mulish stubbornness of the MacDonalds, who were angry at having been posted on the left of the line and so refused to charge.

Don't take away the Jacobites' Dolchstoßlegende!

[The Realm of God]

I was told he dropped it.

If the Jacobite army hadnt been stopped by false infomation in the 1745 war then he would be the reigning monarch anyway.

I thought the Jabobite army was stopped in 1745 by Sempill's 25th Foot, Conway's 59th Foot, and Wolfe's 8th Foot, plus Bligh's 20th Foot, some good artillery work and the mulish stubbornness of the MacDonalds, who were angry at having been posted on the left of the line and so refused to charge.

Eventually.

They got close to London when they called a war council. Basicly the Scots where told that there was a large British army defending the capital (there wasnt). Then they retreated, persued by the British Army. They met at Culloden moor near Inverness.

Then what you said.

[Farnhamia]

I thought the Jabobite army was stopped in 1745 by Sempill's 25th Foot, Conway's 59th Foot, and Wolfe's 8th Foot, plus Bligh's 20th Foot, some good artillery work and the mulish stubbornness of the MacDonalds, who were angry at having been posted on the left of the line and so refused to charge.

Don't take away the Jacobites' Dolchstoßlegende!

"Stab in the back" legend?

[Lancaster of Wessex]

The idea of putting a 78 year old Bavarian on the throne may appeal to patriotic anglophobic Scots.

because.

A. He's not English.
B. He's descended from Bonnie Prince Charlie.

The idea that people should be "phobic" of any race/creed/group of people is slightly offensive in the 21st century. It's one thing to be patriotic, it's another to be patriotic because of Anglo-phobia, IMO.

[Voerdeland]

Well, I do think that Scotland should be a separate constituent state of federal Europe...

[Farnhamia]

I thought the Jabobite army was stopped in 1745 by Sempill's 25th Foot, Conway's 59th Foot, and Wolfe's 8th Foot, plus Bligh's 20th Foot, some good artillery work and the mulish stubbornness of the MacDonalds, who were angry at having been posted on the left of the line and so refused to charge.

Eventually.

They got close to London when they called a war council. Basicly the Scots where told that there was a large British army defending the capital (there wasnt). Then they retreated, persued by the British Army. They met at Culloden moor near Inverness.

Then what you said.

Intelligence is what you make of it. In 1862 General McClellan retreated from Richmond because he believed reports that Lee had over 200,000 men dug in before the city. There were only 85,000.

[The Archregimancy]

If the Jacobite army hadnt been stopped by false infomation in the 1745 war then he would be the reigning monarch anyway.

I see this is history fantasy day here in NSG.

1) The Jacobite army was stopped by more than 'false information'. Murray was wrong about the presence of a third government army between Derby and London, but he was entirely right about Cumberland and Wade. Contemporary French reports of panic in London were propaganda - certainly they're demonstrably false about the Duke of Newcastle, and there was no panic at the central institutions of government such as the Bank of England. The overwhelming majority of Charles' council of war were in favour of a retreat; given the lack of French support or any statistically significant English Jacobite participation, and the recall of British regiments from the continent, they were almost certainly right. Charles was probably right that a retreat guaranteed defeat, but it's hard to see how a continued advance could have succeeded either; isolated hundreds of miles from their supply lines or centres of political support, they were doomed either way.

2) Even had the '45 succeeded, Franz would most likely not be the current King of Britain (and he would have been a British king - the '45 was attempting to restore the Stuarts to the British throne, not achieve independence for Scotland) as A) Charles would likely have entered a legitimate marriage to a European Royal House, B) his brother Henry would likely not have become a cardinal, and would likely have also married, and C) the combination of Stuart conceptions of Catholic monarchy and the opposition of the English ruling class to the Catholic Stuarts would most likely have led to another revolution - whether in favour of an alternative ruling family or a republic - within the next few decades.

[Tagmatium]

The idea of putting a 78 year old Bavarian on the throne may appeal to patriotic anglophobic Scots.

because.

A. He's not English.
B. He's descended from Bonnie Prince Charlie.

I'm not sure these people would prize a foreigner who has never been to Scotland that highly.

But then I find Jacobites puzzling in the extreme. It's as if they dug as deep as they could in a bin marked "hopeless causes" and chose one of the ones they found near the very bottom to support.

Might as well try to dig up an heir for Constantine XI and aim to set him on the throne of Constantinople, which would probably be more hopeless.

[Condunum]

You know what? Fine. I propose something. Indtead of giving the scottish people (or anyone, for that matter) independence, why don't we just go into negotiations with what ever group is in question, reach a reasonable size of land, and give them that much space on the moon? Until we run out of room, that's fine.

[Ifreann]

If the Jacobite army hadnt been stopped by false infomation in the 1745 war then he would be the reigning monarch anyway.

I see this is history fantasy day here in NSG.

Isn't every day history fantasy day on NSG?

[Tagmatium]

Don't take away the Jacobites' Dolchstoßlegende!

"Stab in the back" legend?

Well, kind of.

The idea that it was circumstances that prevented them from advancing, not the reality of the situation.

Albeit Culloden did entirely defeat, bar the odd Jacobite fantasist.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

You know what? Fine. I propose something. Indtead of giving the scottish people (or anyone, for that matter) independence, why don't we just go into negotiations with what ever group is in question, reach a reasonable size of land, and give them that much space on the moon? Until we run out of room, that's fine.

Can't, the Nazi moon base would be in the way!