Scottish independence?

[No-Ghost Zone]

Does the ghost of William Wallace intervene,,,?

[The Archregimancy]

Might as well try to dig up an heir for Constantine XI and aim to set him on the throne of Constantinople, which would probably be more hopeless.

Forgive me for getting slightly tangential here, but I only just noticed Tagmatium's post, and I promise to make this relevant by the time we get to the end.

When Greece achieved independence in the 1820s - and at the time the Greeks were pushing the 'heirs of Byzantium' angle in their national self-conception over the 'heirs of Classical Greece' favoured by western romantics like Byron - there was a semi-serious attempt to find a Palaeologi heir.

Constantine XI had no children of his own, and following the fall of Constantinople the head of the family was his younger brother Thomas.

Thomas had four children.

Helena married Lazar II of Serbia; one of their children married Stephen (last king of Bosnia), another married Leonardo III (last despot of Epirus); the third daughter marries Gjon Castrioti. Stephen and Leonardo III had no heirs; we'll come back to John Gjon Castrioti in a minute.

Andrew/Andreas became titular claimant to the lost throne after Thomas' death; he lived in Rome. He had no known heirs, though Donald Nicol - a specialist on late Byzantium under the Palaeologi - has suggested a possible son and daughter. Even if they were legitimate, they disappear from history.

Second son Manuel eventually returned to Constantinople, where Bayezid II gave him a generous pension in return for agreeing to give up any claim to the Byzantine title. Manuel definitely had two children (John and Andrew) by his Turkish wife, opening up the delicious possibility that there are, somewhere, Muslim Turks who are the senior legitimate claimants by primogeniture to the Byzantine throne. We know nothing further about John and Andrew, though.

Zoe-Sophia Palaiologina is the most immediately dynastically important of Thomas' children, as she married Ivan III of Russia and had eight children. By her son Vasily III, she was therefore the grandmother of Ivan IV 'the Terrible'. It's not for nothing that the Russians embraced the concept of being the 'Third Rome'; by descent, Ivan IV had by far the best claim to the Byzantine title, and also inherited the Byzantine concept of Orthodox church-state relations. But Ivan's line - and the entire Rurikid dynasty - dies out with his son Feodor I. After Russia settled down again, the Romanovs had no family connection to the Palaeologi. Zoe-Sophia's last known adult descendent anywhere was Maria, wife of Duke Magnus of Holstein, the titular King of Livonia; while Maria and Magnus had two daughters, both died before they turned 18.


"But what about Gjon Castrioti?" I hear you ask - nay, demand!

Here's where we come full circle, and actually make this post relevant to the thread....

Things get a little messy here, but I've found this alleged line, which I haven't checked for myself (I do have a life), on a genealogy page (thank God someone did this for me):

Thomas Palailogos, Despot of Morea
Helena Palailogina m Lazar II Brankovic, Despot of Serbia
Jerina Brankovic m Gjon Castrioti, Duke of San Pietro in Galatina
Ferrante Scanderbeg-Castrioti, 3rd Duke of San Pietro in Galatina
Erina Scanderbeg-Castrioti m Pietro Sanseverino, 4th Prince of Bisingnano
Vittoria di Sanseverino m Fernando di Capua, 4th Duke of Termoli
Pietro di Capua, 5th Duke of Termoli
Vittoria di Capua m Francesco Pignatelli, 2nd Duke of Bisaccia
Carlo Pignatelli, 3rd Duke of Bisaccia
Nicola Pignatelli, 5th Duke of Bisaccia
Maria Francesca Pignatelli m Leopold Philippe d'Arenberg, 4th Duke of Arenberg
Charles Marie Raymond d'Arenberg, 5th Duke of Arenberg
Prince and Duke Louis Marie d'Arenberg
Princess and Duchess Anna Luise d'Arenberg m Pius August, Duke in Bavaria
Maximilian Joseph, Duke in Bavaria

Which means the Wittelsbach family are the legitimate heirs of the Byzantine Empire*.

All hail Franz, rightful Stuart King of Scotland, and heir to the Byzantine throne!



*Pedants familiar with the Wittelsbachs will point out that Franz, Duke of Bavaria, is not a descendent in the direct male line of Maximilian Joseph, Duke in Bavaria. Fortunately, A) Maximilian Joseph's Maximilian's grandson and senior heir Duke Ludwig Wilhelm died without issue in 1968 and B) Ludwig Wilhelm's older sister Marie Gabrielle married Franz's grandfather (and her distant cousin) Rupprecht of Bavaria, meaning that Franz is descended from Maximilian Joseph after all. Hurrah!

Pedants who really want to look really closely will know that Marie Gabrielle had an older sister, the Duchess Elisabeth, who married Albert I of Belgium. Technically this means that the actual heir to the Byzantine throne (discounting the morganatic descent of the even older half-sister Amalie) is Albert II, King of the Belgians.

But I'm sure we'd all prefer Franz to unite the Stuart and Palaeologi thrones, wouldn't we?

[The Realm of God]

^Reads above.



Very good now all we need is the Hapsburg's to get Austria and we are all set oh and a Bourbon for france.

I have a question for the good Doctor. What is the present King.of Spains claim based around, whom is he decended from?

EDIT it's simple the King of Spain is a Bourbon.

[Souseiseki]

If it wants independence so much, why not hold referendum sooner rather than later than in 2014?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-18080527

If Scotland wants independence, then by all means ask the population. But I believe that you should do something about it rather than moan for ages about it and then procrastinate when you get your way.

Because that usually works against divisionists. They need time to build up a support base.

Divisionists? I'm used to be people saying separatists, but divisionsits? What an incredibly loaded phrase.

Is the implication here that rushing in without taking the time to campaign and debate will work better for the unionists, and that is why we clearly must have it yesterday as said by the government after years of being denied any chance at a referendum in Scotland and after being denied an EU referendum? For it is somehow noble to make the date one that we will think will be advantageous to us but evil if we think for even a second our "enemies" are doing the same by sticking to their promises? (It would be funny to see how quickly the tune of both sides would change if the advantageous date was reverse though.)

I'd hate to remind you what a strawman is.

A fallacy based on misrepresentation, no? Are you saying that I am misrepresenting your support for PRC rule in Tibet? If I am you may feel free to clear up the issue as to whether you support it or not and I will admit my fault.

What on earth do my views on Tibet have to do with Scotland? But yeah, it was nice of you to take my posts out of context.

If you're going to post about one nations aspiration to independence I think it would be worth keeping in mind your attitude to other nations aspirations to independence, as many a time people have general "always yes" or "always no" views. I don't remember all of your relevant posts now, you could be one of those "against all independence movements" people, which if you are would be worth keeping in mind as it could easily be concluded no argument no matter how valid would change your views.

[Jafas United]

A fallacy based on misrepresentation, no? Are you saying that I am misrepresenting your support for PRC rule in Tibet? If I am you may feel free to clear up the issue as to whether you support it or not and I will admit my fault.

In the sense that my views on Tibet are completely irrelevant to Scotland. You brining up Tibet shows you have missed my point and you're going on about something which has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

If you're going to post about one nations aspiration to independence I think it would be worth keeping in mind your attitude to other nations aspirations to independence. I don't remember all of your relevant posts now, you could be one of those "against all independence movements" people, which may be worth keeping in mind if no argument will actually change your views.

Err...how? Tibet is completely different to Scotland in every way imaginable. Are you saying that if someone supports one particular independence movement, they therefore have to support every other one? Bear in mind that I said I'd prefer it if the UK remained as one.

I fail to see your point. Clearly, by you bringing my views on Tibet into this thread shows that you have nothing of any value to build on my post.

[Souseiseki]

In the sense that my views on Tibet are completely irrelevant to Scotland.

Independence is independence. While the situations are obviously different if you support the PRC it's not hard to imagine you supporting the UK.

Err...how? Tibet is completely different to Scotland in every way imaginable. Are you saying that if someone supports one particular independence movement, they therefore have to support every other one? Bear in mind that I said I'd prefer it if the UK remained as one.

I'm saying that there are people out that that do support every independence movement and people out there that oppose every independence movement and I'm not sure if you're one of them.

I fail to see your point. Clearly, by you bringing my views on Tibet into this thread shows that you have nothing of any value to build on my post.

I'm sorry you don't see the relevance.

[Jafas United]

Independence is independence. While the situations are obviously different if you support the PRC it's not hard to imagine you supporting the UK.

Well no shit. Your point being?

I'm saying that there are people out that that do support every independence movement and people out there that oppose every independence movement and I'm not sure if you're one of them.

If it matters, I prefer the status-quo on most things. Again, your point being?

I'm sorry you don't see the relevance.

No. I don't. Care to point it out to me?

[Souseiseki]

Independence is independence. While the situations are obviously different if you support the PRC it's not hard to imagine you supporting the UK.

Well no shit. Your point being?

I'm saying that there are people out that that do support every independence movement and people out there that oppose every independence movement and I'm not sure if you're one of them.

If it matters, I prefer the status-quo on most things. Again, your point being?

I'm sorry you don't see the relevance.

No. I don't. Care to point it out to me?

Those are points in of themselves, and I've already attempted to the point out the relevance.

[Jafas United]

Those are points in of themselves, and I've already attempted to the point out the relevance.

No you haven't. My views on Tibet are irrelevant to this, especially because I do not support either independence movements. Further, Tibet and Scotland are two entirely different situations. How hard is that to understand?

[Souseiseki]

Those are points in of themselves, and I've already attempted to the point out the relevance.

No you haven't. My views on Tibet are irrelevant to this, especially because I do not support either independence movements. Further, Tibet and Scotland are two entirely different situations. How hard is that to understand?

If you support the status quo in general and you support the PRC, what are the chances of even the most amazing economic and political arguments changing your mind in relation to Scotland? Your view on one reinforces your view on the other and are relevant as both being movements for independence and against the status quo. That is the point.

i mean, i could just draw a big circle with independence movement and independence movement labeled

[Free City of Gdansk]

Well *cough cough* as a Scotsman I'm sort of mixed, because Westminster thinks very differently from Hollyrood. I'd rather be independent because I would believe that Westminster sees Scotland as second to England. I.E, if we were independent I think that say the knife crime and housing problem in Glasgow would be sorted out more quickly etc. Also I don't really like what Britain stands for; royal family, empire and all that. But I'm not so fond of feverent nationalism in Scotland, or the (mild but sometimes irritating) anti-Englishness either. The SNP do like to blame everything on England, which isn't so great. I reckon if we became independent it would be a struggle but we'd get through it without any harm.

[Souseiseki]

The SNP do like to blame everything on England, which isn't so great.

Examples?

[Jafas United]

No you haven't. My views on Tibet are irrelevant to this, especially because I do not support either independence movements. Further, Tibet and Scotland are two entirely different situations. How hard is that to understand?

If you support the status quo in general and you support the PRC, what are the chances of even the most amazing economic and political arguments changing your mind in relation to Scotland? Your view on one reinforces your view on the other. That is the point.

i mean, i could just draw a big circle with independence movement and independence movement labeled

Because you're making assumptions, obviously. I have my views on Scotland, but if you are willing to present me with solid evidence on how Scotland will be better off without London, then yes, I am open minded.

So please, tell me again, how are my views on Tibet relevant to this?

[Souseiseki]

If you support the status quo in general and you support the PRC, what are the chances of even the most amazing economic and political arguments changing your mind in relation to Scotland? Your view on one reinforces your view on the other. That is the point.

i mean, i could just draw a big circle with independence movement and independence movement labeled

Because you're making assumptions, obviously. I have my views on Scotland, but if you are willing to present me with solid evidence on how Scotland will be better off without London, then yes, I am open minded.

So please, tell me again, how are my views on Tibet relevant to this?

I have been telling you how your views on Tibet have been relevant for 5 posts. Do your eyes glaze over every time I try or should I just give up?

[The Realm of God]

I would support the SNP only of guarenteed Scotish Citizenship. Without guarentee. no.

[Jafas United]

Because you're making assumptions, obviously. I have my views on Scotland, but if you are willing to present me with solid evidence on how Scotland will be better off without London, then yes, I am open minded.

So please, tell me again, how are my views on Tibet relevant to this?

I have been telling you how your views on Tibet have been relevant for 5 posts. Do your eyes glaze over every time I try or should I just give up?

Vaguely. All you have managed to say thus far is "Seeing you're against an independent Tibet, therefore, you must be against all other independence movements and nothing can change your mind".

To which I rebutted in my last post.

[Free City of Gdansk]

Well, to say "everything" is an exaggeration. One example being that my dad, who works for the RSPB, was protesting against cuts towards the charity and the minister (a minister, he never specified) came out and said that it was Westminster's decision. It didn't take long for them to point out that it wasn't, it was Hollyrood's. In any case blaming the English is just a thing that we do anyway
But I'm not anti SNP just to let you know

[Souseiseki]

Vaguely. All you have managed to say thus far is "Seeing you're against an independent Tibet, therefore, you must be against all other independence movements and nothing can change your mind".

To which I rebutted in my last post.

Vaguely? Well that's progress.

No, I said "I'm saying that there are people out that that do support every independence movement and people out there that oppose every independence movement and I'm not sure if you're one of them." and woah you told me

[Scholencia]

Hello Everybody!

I've seen today in the news that Scottish National Party's campaign for independence called 'Yes, Scotland' has been launched by the Scottish Prime Minister Alex Salmond.

Well i wonder if there are some Scottish or British people here who have some arguments for or against the Scottish independence?

I've been living in Scotland for 10 months already and I personally doubt whether it is the right path for Scotland to follow.
Taking into consideration the economic situation of Scotland with its huge public sector, I doubt if it would benefit from going on its own.

Does anybody want to add something?

Scots are oppressed, they need freedom!!!!

[Jafas United]

Vaguely. All you have managed to say thus far is "Seeing you're against an independent Tibet, therefore, you must be against all other independence movements and nothing can change your mind".

To which I rebutted in my last post.

Vaguely? Well that's progress.

No, I said "Many people are against all Independence movements. Are you?" and woah look at what happened

Nothing much.

You then went on to say how I'm close-minded and I'll refuse to accept any evidence for an independent Scotland, which is clearly not the case. Do we forget so easily?

[Souseiseki]

Vaguely? Well that's progress.

No, I said "Many people are against all Independence movements. Are you?" and woah look at what happened

Nothing much.

You then went on to say how I'm close-minded and I'll refuse to accept any evidence for an independent Scotland, which is clearly not the case. Do we forget so easily?

No. I said "If you support the status quo in general and you support the PRC, what are the chances of even the most amazing economic and political arguments changing your mind in relation to Scotland?". Then you answered with what the chances are. Are you completely incapable of understand the meaning of things like "If" and "?"?

I don't forget, I have the posts right here in front of me.

[The Realm of God]

Hello Everybody!

I've seen today in the news that Scottish National Party's campaign for independence called 'Yes, Scotland' has been launched by the Scottish Prime Minister Alex Salmond.

Well i wonder if there are some Scottish or British people here who have some arguments for or against the Scottish independence?

I've been living in Scotland for 10 months already and I personally doubt whether it is the right path for Scotland to follow.
Taking into consideration the economic situation of Scotland with its huge public sector, I doubt if it would benefit from going on its own.

Does anybody want to add something?

Scots are oppressed, they need freedom!!!!

Strawmen.

How are we oppressed? Whom is oppressing us?

And we don't NEED freedom this isn't the 13th bloody century.

[Poorisolation]

Pedants who really want to look closely will know that Marie Gabrielle had and older sister, the Duchess Elisabeth, who married Albert I of Belgium. Technically this means that the actual heir to the Byzantine throne (discounting the morganatic descent of the even older half-sister Amalie) is Albert II, King of the Belgians.

But I'm sure we'd all prefer Franz to unite the Stuart and Palaeologi thrones, wouldn't we?

Pft Palaeologi are usurping upstarts though thinking of it as much as I understand the law of succession of the East Roman Empire I think that technically the rightful Emperor is the first man or woman who can hold Constantinople long enough to survive more than five seconds after being proclaimed Basileus by their army, being anointed by the Patriarch of said city would help and being confirmed by the Senate that they will have hand picked before hand should help also and knowing those Byzantine there are probably a host of other rules and such that can be safely ignored if you have a big enough army...the Turks might object though

As to Scots independence they should go for it if they want it. I do not think it will be the huge enormous great success that Alex (of the interesting breath but that is a personal grievance) Salmond predicts but then it ought not to be much of a disaster either.

It is unlikely that the English would really notice they are gone, well at least until we want a Prime Minister with an English surname and find there are no Scots available but since there are plenty of folks with Scottish names with long standing English ancestry we should have no shortage of Prime Ministers of that sort.*

Independence is fine (speaking as an Englishman), Union is fine (though here not speaking as a Devonian because Devonport would benefit from the fact that certain contracts would no longer go north of the border) only Devo-Max aka the Catalan Gambit would get me really riled.


*referencing a rather recent trend but seriously Blair and Cameron would probably regard themselves as English, while Brown was obviously a Scot

[Souseiseki]

Hello Everybody!

I've seen today in the news that Scottish National Party's campaign for independence called 'Yes, Scotland' has been launched by the Scottish Prime Minister Alex Salmond.

Well i wonder if there are some Scottish or British people here who have some arguments for or against the Scottish independence?

I've been living in Scotland for 10 months already and I personally doubt whether it is the right path for Scotland to follow.
Taking into consideration the economic situation of Scotland with its huge public sector, I doubt if it would benefit from going on its own.

Does anybody want to add something?

Scots are oppressed, they need freedom!!!!

oh for fu-

*referencing a rather recent trend but seriously Blair and Cameron would probably regard themselves as English, while Brown was obviously a Scot

hey at least you aren't trying to claim they're both scottish which people are sadly prone to doing

[Jafas United]

Nothing much.

You then went on to say how I'm close-minded and I'll refuse to accept any evidence for an independent Scotland, which is clearly not the case. Do we forget so easily?

No. I said "If you support the status quo in general and you support the PRC, what are the chances of even the most amazing economic and political arguments changing your mind in relation to Scotland?". Then you answered with what the chances are. Are you completely incapable of understand the meaning of things like "If" and "?"?

I don't forget, I have the posts right here in front of me.

I took "what are the chances" as a rhetorical question meaning there is no way I'll be accepting any arguments in favor of Scottish independence. Perhaps you should've or worded the question better or perhaps I misinterpreted it. Either way, I answered your question.