NationStates

Okay yesterday I watched Waiting for Superman, the charter school advertisement if you're unaware, and it has inspired me to write this topic.

It strikes me that the US system is rotten to the very core. From the bottom up, the rot starts so early that the people who should be able to kill it cannot. I also think that it is apparent that said people are surrounded by needless bureaucracy which helps the rot live. As such the "rot killers" have very limited options and have to resort to closing schools.

Now the two problems seem to be tenure and the unions. The Unions are fine but not in conjunction with tenure. What needs to happen is that tenure becomes difficult to obtain or stops existing. Merit based pay I disgaree with, but tenure needs to be reformed.

Also the system is needlessly complicated. All Funding should come from one source and one source only, either the State or the Federal Government, but not both. The curriculum needs to be reigned in; preferably a nationwide curriculum that is so huge states have plenty to choose from.

I must also ask if there is an equivalent of the Education Review Office. If not, there needs to be one.

I now turn to NZ. We also have a few problems with our system. More if you dislike NCEA. Correcting these is difficult and charter schools is not the way to go.

So, NSG, what would you do to fix education in a country or countries of your choice?

I would raise the pay of the teachers to the level of doctors and lawyers because lets face it they have very important jobs. I think also if you increased the prowess of teaching then better skilled workers would actually want to become teachers and aspire to be them therefore getting teachers who want to be there, are very qualified and are on good pay. Dunno probably completely wrong, I'm no expert by any means.

I've seen the same film, and all I have to say is: don't believe everything you hear.
I don't think Unions are the problem here.

Just kill all the smart people.

Pol Pot was right.

Daranicuss wrote:I would raise the pay of the teachers to the level of doctors and lawyers because lets face it they have very important jobs. I think also if you increased the prowess of teaching then better skilled workers would actually want to become teachers and aspire to be them therefore getting teachers who want to be there, are very qualified and are on good pay. Dunno probably completely wrong, I'm no expert by any means.

This would also mean that children believe in the value of qualifications as they have a qualified well paid adult to aspire to right there in the classroom.

without a reasonable amount of job security why would anyone go into teaching?

Genivaria wrote:I've seen the same film, and all I have to say is: don't believe everything you hear.
I don't think Unions are the problem here.

It's not the unions, it is the unions in conjunction with tenure.

Ashmoria wrote:without a reasonable amount of job security why would anyone go into teaching?

You should not have job security when you are incompetent.

*sighs* Here we go again.

Tenure for lower education teachers is not 'automatic', and in a growing number of states, it's not given at all. Tenure also doesn't mean "cannot be fired", it means that teachers cannot be fired at will, you actually have to show cause for this. The system of course is old, but it does have a good reason beyond the now antiquated notion of giving unmarried women job security, teachers simply cannot be fired for teaching things that local people dislike, like evolution.

As for the funding and curriculum bit, federal funding actually doesn't make up all that much of most schools. Federal funding accounts for about 8% of where schools get their money. The lion's share comes from the states. Given how education is left to the states under the US Constitution and given that the US is not NZ, it's highly unlikely that a national curriculum would ever be, or ever could be, adopted.

Forsher wrote:Okay yesterday I watched Waiting for Superman, the charter school advertisement if you're unaware, and it has inspired me to write this topic.

It strikes me that the US system is rotten to the very core. From the bottom up, the rot starts so early that the people who should be able to kill it cannot. I also think that it is apparent that said people are surrounded by needless bureaucracy which helps the rot live. As such the "rot killers" have very limited options and have to resort to closing schools.

Now the two problems seem to be tenure and the unions. The Unions are fine but not in conjunction with tenure. What needs to happen is that tenure becomes difficult to obtain or stops existing. Merit based pay I disgaree with, but tenure needs to be reformed.

Also the system is needlessly complicated. All Funding should come from one source and one source only, either the State or the Federal Government, but not both. The curriculum needs to be reigned in; preferably a nationwide curriculum that is so huge states have plenty to choose from.

I must also ask if there is an equivalent of the Education Review Office. If not, there needs to be one.

I now turn to NZ. We also have a few problems with our system. More if you dislike NCEA. Correcting these is difficult and charter schools is not the way to go.

So, NSG, what would you do to fix education in a country or countries of your choice?

You've been brainwashed.

*Ignores the troll*

I now turn to NZ. We also have a few problems with our system. More if you dislike NCEA. Correcting these is difficult and charter schools is not the way to go.

I like NCEA, and had no problems with it when I was at school, and pity those that will have to labour under national standards. Charter schools is a flawed concept, but by all means let the government set up charter schools, that can then be shunned for private schools (including the religious ones).

Is it crazy to think that some people want the same type of gap in education as there currently is in wealth? Real question.

Desperate Measures wrote:Is it crazy to think that some people want the same type of gap in education as there currently is in wealth? Real question.

Standardizing the quality of education is a crazy idea I agree. The best schools shouldn't have to lower quality standards, and the worst schools shouldn't have to attempt to meet quality standards they couldn't ever meet due to funding shortfalls, as a result of low student numbers or the lower income of the area.

NERVUN wrote:*sighs* Here we go again.

Tenure for lower education teachers is not 'automatic', and in a growing number of states, it's not given at all. Tenure also doesn't mean "cannot be fired", it means that teachers cannot be fired at will, you actually have to show cause for this. The system of course is old, but it does have a good reason beyond the now antiquated notion of giving unmarried women job security, teachers simply cannot be fired for teaching things that local people dislike, like evolution.

This is good news all round. Ah, a problem I somehow (okay, very easily) neglected to identify. I think Unions should be able to provide job security. If Waiting For Superman is to be believed, the process of proving that teachers should be fired needs streamling.

NERVUN wrote:As for the funding and curriculum bit, federal funding actually doesn't make up all that much of most schools. Federal funding accounts for about 8% of where schools get their money. The lion's share comes from the states. Given how education is left to the states under the US Constitution and given that the US is not NZ, it's highly unlikely that a national curriculum would ever be, or ever could be, adopted.

Okay, it makes more sense for the States to provide all the funding. Do you know how funds are allocated?

National Curriculum is perhaps worth a try. I do not intend a rigid one, but instead a flexible one.

New Rogernomics wrote:*Ignores the troll*

I now turn to NZ. We also have a few problems with our system. More if you dislike NCEA. Correcting these is difficult and charter schools is not the way to go.

I like NCEA, and had no problems with it when I was at school, and pity those that will have to labour under national standards. Charter schools is a flawed concept, but by all means let the government set up charter schools, that can then be shunned for private schools (including the religious ones).

I also like NCEA, although there are flaws, sometimes quite gaping. Funny the use of labour. My problem with charter schools is that any student who doesn't want to learn will not learn and changing the type of school will not help with that type of student..

Daranicuss wrote:I would raise the pay of the teachers to the level of doctors and lawyers because lets face it they have very important jobs. I think also if you increased the prowess of teaching then better skilled workers would actually want to become teachers and aspire to be them therefore getting teachers who want to be there, are very qualified and are on good pay. Dunno probably completely wrong, I'm no expert by any means.

I would say we can't afford to make huge increases in teacher salary. Not without dramatic changes in the structure of education, and I don't see how we can afford to do that, either.

Doctors kinda have to be paid a lot in order for it to be worth it, with the risk of malpractice suits (or, really, the high cost of malpractice insurance, which is as necessary for them as health insurance is for everybody else), the high level of training required to not screw up, and the typical working hours; [some] lawyers get paid a lot because they're involved with very high-value cases, although the median lawyer's salary isn't actually so different from a teacher's. It just so happens that the big shots ... well, make it big.

Forsher wrote:

New Rogernomics wrote:*Ignores the troll*
I like NCEA, and had no problems with it when I was at school, and pity those that will have to labour under national standards. Charter schools is a flawed concept, but by all means let the government set up charter schools, that can then be shunned for private schools (including the religious ones).

I also like NCEA, although there are flaws, sometimes quite gaping. Funny the use of labour. My problem with charter schools is that any student who doesn't want to learn will not learn and changing the type of school will not help with that type of student..

However, sometimes the change in environment will make them want to learn.

I feel like charter schools are overall not a bad idea, provided you keep closing down the ones that don't work. It's a sort of natural laboratory.

Tahar Joblis wrote:

Forsher wrote:
I also like NCEA, although there are flaws, sometimes quite gaping. Funny the use of labour. My problem with charter schools is that any student who doesn't want to learn will not learn and changing the type of school will not help with that type of student..

However, sometimes the change in environment will make them want to learn.

I feel like charter schools are overall not a bad idea, provided you keep closing down the ones that don't work. It's a sort of natural laboratory.

Except that charter schools aren't held to anything like the strict standards of public schools. The way schools and teachers are evaluated is out of whack. Charters schools only 'work' by accepting the students they want (as opposed to public schools, which have to accept all students in an attendance area), threatening to kick them out if they cause trouble, and then teaching narrowly so students can 'pass' state assessments so they can get more money.

Ryadn wrote:

Tahar Joblis wrote:
Except that charter schools aren't held to anything like the strict standards of public schools. The way schools and teachers are evaluated is out of whack. Charters schools only 'work' by accepting the students they want (as opposed to public schools, which have to accept all students in an attendance area), threatening to kick them out if they cause trouble, and then teaching narrowly so students can 'pass' state assessments so they can get more money.

Charter schools in Florida continually make Fs on the state standardized testing required each year. Now we find out in Florida that many of the legislators who are writing charter school law are also setting up charter schools to compete with public schools all the while making succcess within the public system harder to accomplish based on funding and the raising of standards that many students cannot attain.

Tahar Joblis wrote:

Daranicuss wrote:I would raise the pay of the teachers to the level of doctors and lawyers because lets face it they have very important jobs. I think also if you increased the prowess of teaching then better skilled workers would actually want to become teachers and aspire to be them therefore getting teachers who want to be there, are very qualified and are on good pay. Dunno probably completely wrong, I'm no expert by any means.

I would say we can't afford to make huge increases in teacher salary. Not without dramatic changes in the structure of education, and I don't see how we can afford to do that, either.

Doctors kinda have to be paid a lot in order for it to be worth it, with the risk of malpractice suits (or, really, the high cost of malpractice insurance, which is as necessary for them as health insurance is for everybody else), the high level of training required to not screw up, and the typical working hours; [some] lawyers get paid a lot because they're involved with very high-value cases, although the median lawyer's salary isn't actually so different from a teacher's. It just so happens that the big shots ... well, make it big.

If you pay teachers a decent salary, you will be able to attract people who are worthy of that salary and at the intelligence level of the doctors you say so deserve their higher salary.

Forsher wrote:Okay yesterday I watched Waiting for Superman, the charter school advertisement if you're unaware, and it has inspired me to write this topic.

It strikes me that the US system is rotten to the very core. From the bottom up, the rot starts so early that the people who should be able to kill it cannot. I also think that it is apparent that said people are surrounded by needless bureaucracy which helps the rot live. As such the "rot killers" have very limited options and have to resort to closing schools.

Now the two problems seem to be tenure and the unions. The Unions are fine but not in conjunction with tenure. What needs to happen is that tenure becomes difficult to obtain or stops existing. Merit based pay I disgaree with, but tenure needs to be reformed.

Also the system is needlessly complicated. All Funding should come from one source and one source only, either the State or the Federal Government, but not both. The curriculum needs to be reigned in; preferably a nationwide curriculum that is so huge states have plenty to choose from.

I must also ask if there is an equivalent of the Education Review Office. If not, there needs to be one.

I now turn to NZ. We also have a few problems with our system. More if you dislike NCEA. Correcting these is difficult and charter schools is not the way to go.

So, NSG, what would you do to fix education in a country or countries of your choice?

Unions are quite neccisary for teaching and teachers. It protects them from hostile federal and state cuts in education. I am quite a conservative but is apparent that some teachers DO need to be cut. it is really up to the school to see the work ethic of the teachers they hire.

Federal Government should not interfere with schools. Schools should be individualized to meet community standards.

Here is how you fix education:
1. Make class sizes smaller
2. Give local communities more power over their education system
3. Create a homework system that allows kids to not do their homework if they can prove they understand the material. (Homework is supposed to be about practice, and if the kid knows the material, then why force them to practice?)
4. Give kids more power over their school. I am talking about student representatives elected by their peers who have GENUINE power over their education. They would get to represent what they want, negotiate for better conditions, and learn lessons in negotiation, politics, etc.
5. Make schools less like prisons. Hold classes outside when it is warm out. Allow gum chewing as long as it doesn't distract anyone. Don't punish everybody when certain people misbehave. Give more rights to the kids. Allow for dissent against school policy, and ENCOURAGE protests and action against it. The current school system tends to make everybody afraid of speaking out against abuses of power by school officials, and when the school encourages creativity, they usually advocate "coloring in the lines" type creativity.
6. Give rewards for good behavior and grades. Not money, but increased privileges, and extra days off if you can prove that you understand everything. Give kids a test at the beginning of the year in each class that has all the content covered in the year. If they pass it, they are given the choice of skipping the class and having more free time added to their day, or going to an advanced class that gives you increased privileges while at school.
7. Make the day start later. It has been proven that adolescents need at least 12 hours of sleep, and that the teenage body is adjusted to go to bed at around 12 and sleep to noon. If the schoolday is adjusted to those dimensions, kids will have more energy to listen and understand and work on what they are being taught.
8. Give responsibilities to the teachers. Instead of having the kids be told "here is your book you are expected to know everything inside of it by the end of the unit" have the teachers tell the kids "Here is your book, I am your teacher, and I am responsible to teach you what is inside. If I don't, then I have failed.
9. No more tenure, except for teachers who have served with little or no objections from students, parents, and teachers for 10 years.

Ravineworld wrote:Here is how you fix education:
1. Make class sizes smaller
2. Give local communities more power over their education system
3. Create a homework system that allows kids to not do their homework if they can prove they understand the material. (Homework is supposed to be about practice, and if the kid knows the material, then why force them to practice?)
4. Give kids more power over their school. I am talking about student representatives elected by their peers who have GENUINE power over their education. They would get to represent what they want, negotiate for better conditions, and learn lessons in negotiation, politics, etc.
5. Make schools less like prisons. Hold classes outside when it is warm out. Allow gum chewing as long as it doesn't distract anyone. Don't punish everybody when certain people misbehave. Give more rights to the kids. Allow for dissent against school policy, and ENCOURAGE protests and action against it. The current school system tends to make everybody afraid of speaking out against abuses of power by school officials, and when the school encourages creativity, they usually advocate "coloring in the lines" type creativity.
6. Give rewards for good behavior and grades. Not money, but increased privileges, and extra days off if you can prove that you understand everything. Give kids a test at the beginning of the year in each class that has all the content covered in the year. If they pass it, they are given the choice of skipping the class and having more free time added to their day, or going to an advanced class that gives you increased privileges while at school.
7. Make the day start later. It has been proven that adolescents need at least 12 hours of sleep, and that the teenage body is adjusted to go to bed at around 12 and sleep to noon. If the schoolday is adjusted to those dimensions, kids will have more energy to listen and understand and work on what they are being taught.
8. Give responsibilities to the teachers. Instead of having the kids be told "here is your book you are expected to know everything inside of it by the end of the unit" have the teachers tell the kids "Here is your book, I am your teacher, and I am responsible to teach you what is inside. If I don't, then I have failed.
9. No more tenure, except for teachers who have served with little or no objections from students, parents, and teachers for 10 years.

1: Yeah, sure.
2: NO. That would lead to certain areas having people leave schools as brainwashed fundamentalists.
3: Sure.
4: No.
5: A bit.
6: No.
7: I recently saw a news story saying the opposite, that many of the best performing students got 6-8. The body that stayed up late will naturally wake up around noon.
8: Never experienced anything like that.
9: Sure.

Tlaceceyaya wrote:

Ravineworld wrote:Here is how you fix education:
1. Make class sizes smaller
2. Give local communities more power over their education system
3. Create a homework system that allows kids to not do their homework if they can prove they understand the material. (Homework is supposed to be about practice, and if the kid knows the material, then why force them to practice?)
4. Give kids more power over their school. I am talking about student representatives elected by their peers who have GENUINE power over their education. They would get to represent what they want, negotiate for better conditions, and learn lessons in negotiation, politics, etc.
5. Make schools less like prisons. Hold classes outside when it is warm out. Allow gum chewing as long as it doesn't distract anyone. Don't punish everybody when certain people misbehave. Give more rights to the kids. Allow for dissent against school policy, and ENCOURAGE protests and action against it. The current school system tends to make everybody afraid of speaking out against abuses of power by school officials, and when the school encourages creativity, they usually advocate "coloring in the lines" type creativity.
6. Give rewards for good behavior and grades. Not money, but increased privileges, and extra days off if you can prove that you understand everything. Give kids a test at the beginning of the year in each class that has all the content covered in the year. If they pass it, they are given the choice of skipping the class and having more free time added to their day, or going to an advanced class that gives you increased privileges while at school.
7. Make the day start later. It has been proven that adolescents need at least 12 hours of sleep, and that the teenage body is adjusted to go to bed at around 12 and sleep to noon. If the schoolday is adjusted to those dimensions, kids will have more energy to listen and understand and work on what they are being taught.
8. Give responsibilities to the teachers. Instead of having the kids be told "here is your book you are expected to know everything inside of it by the end of the unit" have the teachers tell the kids "Here is your book, I am your teacher, and I am responsible to teach you what is inside. If I don't, then I have failed.
9. No more tenure, except for teachers who have served with little or no objections from students, parents, and teachers for 10 years.

1: Yeah, sure.
2: NO. That would lead to certain areas having people leave schools as brainwashed fundamentalists.
3: Sure.
4: No.
5: A bit.
6: No.
7: I recently saw a news story saying the opposite, that many of the best performing students got 6-8. The body that stayed up late will naturally wake up around noon.
8: Never experienced anything like that.
9: Sure.

Can you explain why?

In University people work very hard for tenure. I think public school professors in the US deserve more, not less.

Disserbia wrote:In University people work very hard for tenure. I think public school professors in the US deserve more, not less.

Deserve more? I'm a little confused sorry.