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God died in Auschwitz

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Trotskylvania
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God died in Auschwitz

Postby Trotskylvania » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:48 pm

I had better begin with a clarification, since my last thread on a similar subject seemed to provoke confused responses. When I say "God died in Auschwitz", I do not mean it in a literal sense that there was a personal creator deity and that the acts of the Final Solution killed him. Rather, I mean it in a symbolic sense that the theistic notion itself--that of a personal deity who is involved with the affairs of humans--died, and that one can only continue to believe in this sense by ignoring this experience.

It should be of little wonder that the primary targets of the Final Solution--the Ashkenazi Jews--are among the most atheistic and least religious communities in the world. But one might say, "Yes, the Holocaust was horrible, but religious believers have endured terrible tragedies in the past, and continued to thrive. One might even say that the history of religion is built upon human tragedies." Where I think this kind of rejoinder fails though is in dealing with the Final Solution in terms of tragedy. This, I think, it is wrong in the fundamental sense.

Tragedy presumes a certain dignity to the victim, a dignity that was entirely absent in the Final Solution. The whole process, from the selection to the cattle cars to the final naked walk was meant precisely to remove that dignity. The chief judge in the BBC drama God on Trial put it best: "When you came here, they took away your property, they took away your name, cut your hair, took away your childre, wives, mothers, even the fillings in your teeth: everything that made you a man they took." To frame a suffering as a tragedy requires the minimal dignity of personhood, that though the victim is suffering unfairly, say being executed publicly as a political prisoner, the chance to face that suffering with defiance or courage. "My only regret is that I have but one life to give for my country" is perhaps the prototypical example of the dignified last act of the tragedy. Or perhaps more universal across culture, the process of making peace with God, the giving of last rites, or the final prayers of the condemned, etc.

To imagine such a confrontation in Auschwitz is to basically make fun of the victim. It presupposes a certain level of dignity that simply wasn't there. When the brutality is total, and the person is reduced to a level of existence even lower than a herd of cattle, such prayers, whether for personal salvation or for a miracle, descend to the level of total farce.

When you take a situation like Auschwitz, where the dehumanization, of both the executioner and the victim, is total, the only genuine human acts that are left are tantamount to suicide. Perhaps the starkest example of this that I can think of is from Primo Levi's autobiographical work If This is a Man. While imprisoned in Auschwitz, Levi was befriended by an Italian bricklayer Lorrenzo Perrone. Lorrenzo was a conscripted laborer transferred from Italy as part of camp expansion plan. He had no reason to fraternize with an inmate at a death camp. Yet Perrone, at great personal risk to himself, smuggled food from his meager rations to Levi, as well as warmer garments to wear under his uniform, saving Levi's life.

Perrone could have been killed at any moment for any of what he was doing. And the hunger he endured to save his friend may well have cost him his life in the end, as he died of Tuberculosis in 1952, likely contracted during this period of malnutrition. As Levi himself put it, "But Lorenzo was a man; his humanity was pure and unblemished, and he was outside this world of denial. Thanks to Lorenzo I happened not to forget I myself was a man."

It may seem simplistic to ask, "Where was God in all of this?" Nevertheless, it is a question that anyone who believes in a personal deity, who concerns himself with moral affairs, has to answer. There simply were no miracles at Auschwitz, and by the time the camps were liberated by the Allies and the Nazi regime overthrown, 78 percent of Jewish population of Europe had been annihilated, along with sizable portions of the Eastern Slavic population (10% and 11% of the Polish and Soviet populations respectively, for example). Generalplan Ost, the Nazi plan for the depopulation and German colonization of the Soviet Union and Poland, called for similar levels of annihilation as the Jews. In the face of this uncompromising brutality, anyone who believes in a God that is in anyway concerned with the affairs of mortals (especially one that grants miracles, as many modern evangelicals believe) is going to be left with an uncomfortable answer to Eddie Izzard's question "Why didn't God just flick Hitler's head off?"
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New Conglomerate
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Postby New Conglomerate » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:50 pm

Image

Unfortunately, xkcd already said it best.
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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:53 pm

Nietzsche called it.

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The Germania Alliance
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Postby The Germania Alliance » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 pm

It's because of things like this I don't believe in 'everything happens for a reason.'

I don't believe God interferes with our lives, period.
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Steel and Fire
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Postby Steel and Fire » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 pm

The usual religious answer to this goes along the following lines:

(1) God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
(2) Evil happens.
(3) An omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being ought to try its best to prevent evil.
(4) The only condition satisfying omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence while recognising the existence of evil is that God permits evil to occur to prevent some unknown greater evil.
(5) Therefore: The Holocaust was part of God's design. If it had not happened, eventually, as a result, something even worse would have. Presumably, anyway. Not that we can ever truly know God's design since we are but puny mortals.
(6) You should send me money because me having this TV show is also part of God's design and if you don't, who knows what evil might befall you... IN HELL.
(7) Why are you atheists always so mean to me? Can't you respect my beliefs?
Last edited by Steel and Fire on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Episarta
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Postby Episarta » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 pm

New Conglomerate wrote:(Image)

Unfortunately, xkcd already said it best.


I disagree; some of his paintings are actually quite lovely.
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Wisconsin7
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Postby Wisconsin7 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:59 pm

The line "God died in Aushwitz" is loosely paraphrased or directly quoted from a line in Ellie Wiesel's Night, correct?
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Postby Qurania » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:00 pm

Wisconsin7 wrote:The line "God died in Aushwitz" is loosely paraphrased or directly quoted from a line in Ellie Wiesel's Night, correct?


No. At least, not that I know of.

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Snozzerland
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Postby Snozzerland » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm

The Germania Alliance wrote:It's because of things like this I don't believe in 'everything happens for a reason.'

I don't believe God interferes with our lives, period.


I'm starting to believe this. I mean, the Holocaust could have had SOME purpose, but I'm really not seeing it.
Last edited by Snozzerland on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Risottia » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm

If I may expand on Primo Levi - one of my favourite authors - in "Il sistema periodico" and in an interview he released to Philip Roth, Levi explains that he became atheist - or was confirmedin his atheism - right because of Auschwitz, as a simple syllogism: Auschwitz exists, hence God cannot exist. And it was Levi's own scientifical attitude (he was a chemist), made of precision, experiment, order, analytical thought that allowed him to survive the death camp.

So, in a paradoxical way, the totally inhumane experience that the extermination camps have been, have maybe helped - or forced - humanity to look into itself a bit more, shedding new light on both good and evil sides, and removing yet another bit of alienation: it's useless to wait for a God to save you when he didn't help you in Auschwitz; it's useless to fear the Devil when men built Auschwitz. It's humanism: Man his both is own God, and his own Devil.
Last edited by Risottia on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vitius
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Postby Vitius » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:02 pm

Judaism believes that good and evil may not be determined. While Israel (as a state) may believe that the Holocaust was an evil act, Judaism does not. There is no good or evil; while I certainly personally believe that the Holocaust was a horrible and evil act, the Torah and most likely G-d say differently. While I'm not pushing the beliefs of a religious being on to anyone, if G-d were to smite Hitler, He would most likely be committing an act of evil (as defined by the Nazis if something bad were to happen to them).

As such, He did not die in Auschwitz, for He should not have helped prevent or encourage the Holocaust.
Last edited by Vitius on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lancaster of Wessex
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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:02 pm

Sometimes out of great evil can come great good. Why does any bad, on a scale such as The Holocaust, or a petty theft, happen? Because Mankind has the freewill to perpetrate evil. Those who believe "God died in the Holocaust," IMO, do not understand God or His ultimate plan for history.

The ultimate plan for history being: most Christians believe in Christ's return, and He will usher in a New Heaven and a New Earth. I await that time.

I strongly reject the notion that "God died in the Holocaust"; if anything, Mankind's dignity died.
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Postby Central Slavia » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:03 pm

Pondering this is very close to one of the reasons I became an atheist back when I was about 14.
Looking at what happens all over the world, if a god exists by some chance, then he's either unconcerned with people, or a massive asshole. Either way, no point in worshipping such an entity.

Of course ,some demagogue will just turn up and say "oh, but they went to heaven for what they endured".
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Postby Alexlantis » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:03 pm

You got me on this one.
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:05 pm

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:Those who believe "Communism died in Stalin's purges" IMO, do not understand Stalin or His ultimate plan for history.


Uuuhh... fixed? ;)
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Trotskylvania
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Postby Trotskylvania » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:05 pm

Episarta wrote:
New Conglomerate wrote:(Image)

Unfortunately, xkcd already said it best.


I disagree; some of his paintings are actually quite lovely.

His technique isn't bad, but his composition is terrible. You can chalk it up to his reactionary heritage or many other things, but fundamentally I don't think he understood the project of art as one to convey meaning and emotion. There are good reasons why realism of the renaissance era was dead or dying among serious artists by 1900: there's nothing so soul crushing for an artist as the painstaking attempt to recreate an image of real life, knowing full well that your attempt will never do it justice.

Realism had justifiably gotten a reputation as simple painting by rote, usually to flatter the ego of some wealthy patron. And to this day, the artists that thrived within the genre, such as Norman Rockwell, are the ones who took considerable composition and framing lessons from the critiques made by impressionists and surrealists of the state of the genre.
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Wisconsin7
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Postby Wisconsin7 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:05 pm

Qurania wrote:
Wisconsin7 wrote:The line "God died in Aushwitz" is loosely paraphrased or directly quoted from a line in Ellie Wiesel's Night, correct?


No. At least, not that I know of.

"Where is He? Here He is--He is hanging here on this gallows."
- Elie Wiesel, Night, Ch. 4

Perhaps not quite the same, but most definitely very similar meanings.
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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:05 pm

Steel and Fire wrote:(5) Therefore: The Holocaust was part of God's design.


Obvious comeback: then why should we worship a god like that?
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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:06 pm

Central Slavia wrote:Pondering this is very close to one of the reasons I became an atheist back when I was about 14.
Looking at what happens all over the world, if a god exists by some chance, then he's either unconcerned with people, or a massive asshole. Either way, no point in worshipping such an entity.

Of course ,some demagogue will just turn up and say "oh, but they went to heaven for what they endured".


Classic "God doesn't care because he doesn't fix all of my and all of earth's problems" thinking.

It's time to take responsibilty for our own choices out of our own free will.
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Central Slavia
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Postby Central Slavia » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:06 pm

Vitius wrote:Judaism believes that good and evil may not be determined. While Israel (as a state) may believe that the Holocaust was an evil act, Judaism does not. There is no good or evil; while I certainly personally believe that the Holocaust was a horrible and evil act, the Torah and most likely G-d say differently. While I'm not pushing the beliefs of a religious being on to anyone, if G-d were to smite Hitler, He would most likely be committing an act of evil (as defined by the Nazis if something bad were to happen to them).

As such, He did not die in Auschwitz, for He should not have helped prevent or encourage the Holocaust.


Yet, in the Old Testament, which the Jews have as a holy book , he has no problem smiting thousands of people.
Funnily enough... In the story, he went on to royally mess up Egypt for holding them in reasonably livable through servitude, yet did nothing to the fascists.
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You would be wrong. There's something wrong with the Americans, the Japanese are actually insane, the Chinese don't seem capable of free-thought and just defer judgement to the most powerful strong man, the Russians are quite like that, only more aggressive and mad, and Belarus? Hah.

Omnicracy wrote:The Soviet Union did not support pro-Soviet governments, it compleatly controled them. The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions

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Weltbeherrschung
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Postby Weltbeherrschung » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:06 pm

Given "God" never existed and there were loads and loads of bad things before and after Auschwitz... yeah. The premise is a fallacy.

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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:06 pm

Risottia wrote:
Lancaster of Wessex wrote:Those who believe "Communism died in Stalin's purges" IMO, do not understand Stalin or His ultimate plan for history.


Uuuhh... fixed? ;)


Very clever, and indeed, offensive.
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Vitius
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Postby Vitius » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:07 pm

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:Sometimes out of great evil can come great good. Why does any bad, on a scale such as The Holocaust, or a petty theft, happen? Because Mankind has the freewill to perpetrate evil. Those who believe "God died in the Holocaust," IMO, do not understand God or His ultimate plan for history.

The ultimate plan for history being: most Christians believe in Christ's return, and He will usher in a New Heaven and a New Earth. I await that time.

I strongly reject the notion that "God died in the Holocaust"; if anything, Mankind's dignity died.

^ This. This exactly.

As I said before, Judaism, the religion of most (but not all, mind you, don't forget about Romanis, PoWs, homosexuals, etc.) whom died in the concentration camp, doesn't believe that there is a way to define nor recognize good or evil. It's all based upon human interactions.

For example:

-Hitler may have thought he was being good by killing Jews.
-Others may have thought he was being evil.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:07 pm

I pretty much agree with this. The primary reason I can't believe in the existence of any god that has the ability to influence things on earth is the fact that events like Auschwitsz, modern factory farms, slavery, ect

Any god with a sense of ethics at all would stop it. Therefore we must reach the conclusion that:

1) God does not exist
2) God has no power
3) God is an evil psychopath

I don't know which it is. But I don't see how it can be anything different.
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Steel and Fire
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Postby Steel and Fire » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:07 pm

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:Sometimes out of great evil can come great good. Why does any bad, on a scale such as The Holocaust, or a petty theft, happen? Because Mankind has the freewill to perpetrate evil.

This question-and-answer are mismatched. It's like asking "Why did you shoot my father?" and getting the answer "Well, the trigger of this gun releases a small explosive charge propelling a metal projectile out of the barrel..." You're answering the question "How does evil happen?"
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