"Well-kept Gardens Die by Pacifism", did this happen to NSG?

[SD_Film Artists]

One of my earliest memories of NSG is, apart from talking about the NSG Battlegrounds game, seeing a thread about glasses and someone saying "the poll is going to have more wearers of glasses because the non-glasses wearer would just look at the thread title and think 'meh' while we look at this thread and think- 'oooh, a thread about the life of wearing glasses...' "

[Yootwopia]

-Is it a pipe dream of an NSG that never existed?

I dunno, we've lost some quality posters. Fass, who was brilliant, posters like IV Stalin that outgrew this place, Zooke, obviously (shame her place in the collective memory is 'as someone in whose name Nanatsu no Tsuki gets prizes'), most of the crowd that went to other forums and all the rest.

They've been replaced with... well... nobody...

[Galloism]

I think a major problem is quite that - the "not this shit again" problem.

How many times can you present facts, figures, sourced calculations, etc to the same argument before you just get tired of people just bullshit dismissing your claims, imputing bad motives, misrepresenting your argument, and so on?

It's tiring, and it's tiring to present the same old information to the same result over and over again.

People, good people, eventually just leave.

Ah, sigh.

And here is the subjective nature of reality, aptly demonstrated. For most people who make the claims you do above, are also seen as guilty of the same behaviour by others.

What I mean is, we all justify doing things like 'imparting motives' and 'summing up someone's argument', while we may actually be imputing bad motives and misrepresenting arguments. Of course, only our foes do this, we are innocent.

Naturally. Some are more guilty than others, though.

I will leave that for observers to decide.

So there is certainly a level of hypocrisy at play in poster interactions that for me personally, has completely taken the shine off.

Why I keep coming back here complaining about this, I don't know. But I do. Is it a pipe dream of an NSG that never existed? I like to think I'm more realistic than that, but hey, in your opinion I'm probably a loon so who knows.

Actually, I don't think you're a loon at all. I don't know how you would have gotten that opinion. I have never, and still to this day do not take anything on this forum personally. Because a person may have a bad (or even, differing) opinion does not make them a loon, nor crazy, nor stupid. It simply makes them have a different point of view. There may be also some misinformation on the part of that person (or yourself, for that matter), but that does not make a person not worth listening to and hearing out if they actually present an argument.

Of course, that requires them to actually present an argument, with sources, in order to properly address that argument, which a lot of people (old and new) fail to do. The new I suspect don't because they don't know how. The old don't because they've gotten lazy.

EDIT: Sorry, my "k" doesn't work very well.

[Kiskaanak]

Anyway in general I think this whole thing is rose-tinted glasses and what not.

Yes yes of course. Those of us who were complaining about what we saw as a degradation and downward spiral of this forum many years ago were foolishly longer for a past that never existed.

People always told us "nu-uh, this place has always been exactly the same."

[Serrland]

It increases the average intelligence levels on the other boards by concentrating the majority of the silly stupid shit in one spot.

Not really. You'd hope so, but it actually doesn't.

It seems to have birthed all sorts of bizarre internet forum cliques...

[Dumb Ideologies]

I have never routinely participated in the ritualized e-peen swords battle of debate. So I will not presume to talk about the quality of debate. That is not my domain. I am but an occasional dabbler.

The community threads took a big hit with the F7 divide when anything social/chatty in General was stomped out. Now, that error has been substantially rectified. The influx of former F7ers to these forums is a good thing from my perspective; in the heyday of F7 I was an occasional participant there and many posters who I appreciate have come across that way. I think that the ever-stricter PG-13 stance is choking out a lot of discussions that would have been allowed to pass previously, and that is something I think impacts upon a lot of people's enjoyment of the forum since so many threads get shut down early. The biggest disappointment for me though has been the declining appreciation for satire. The amount of times I have seen something genuinely funny and then seen dozens of posters responding with "ZOMG TROLL" and the subsequent arrival of a rapid mod-lock is something I regard as a profoundly negative development. Satire threads were one of the things I really enjoyed when I first joined NSG, and to see their demise has been rather disheartening.

[Yootwopia]

Not really. You'd hope so, but it actually doesn't.

<Inert generic it used to work that way in the past till the great F7 crackdown rant.

There was not enough of a crackdown. It was too much like 2011 Syria and not enough like 1960s China or that thing with Pol Pot.

[Galloism]

I think a major problem is quite that - the "not this shit again" problem.

How many times can you present facts, figures, sourced calculations, etc to the same argument before you just get tired of people just bullshit dismissing your claims, imputing bad motives, misrepresenting your argument, and so on?

It's tiring, and it's tiring to present the same old information to the same result over and over again.

People, good people, eventually just leave.

The mods should really make a new rule to stop the creation of new threads on old problems.

*closes up shop, puts a padlock on the door*

Goodnight everybody! NSG is closed.

[Hydesland]

I dunno, it seems a lot like there are more children (and bona fide kids) here than there used to be, with their fluffles and pony bullshit (also the creepy adults who try to fit in *shudder*).

The brony thing is kinda annoying but I was under the impression this was more of a late teens to early twenties sensation. As for kids and fluffles, I haven't really noticed that much of a difference. I remember getting really annoyed at the overuse of fluffles during 2006.

I've become less and less interested in NSG, but I don't think that's a result of it becoming less intelligent, I think more a result of the arguments and ideas presented largely staying the same this whole time and getting repetitive. Although there are still some posters where I can genuinely get new information/arguments from regarding the subjects I'm actually interested in.

[Yootwopia]

Not really. You'd hope so, but it actually doesn't.

It seems to have birthed all sorts of bizarre internet forum cliques...

Not really. All that pony rubbish was on 4Chan circa 8 years ago, and was then picked up here. The solution over there, which was to DoS people after a pretend amnesty, was genius.

[Steel and Fire]

NSG does feel... different.

But I think NSG isn't the one that changed. I am.

I think this because I can't point out any one specific thing about the forum that has changed. There are idiots, but there always were. The moderation might feel strict, but it's been stricter. The threads are repetitive, but they started being repetitive about a month after the forum went live. And yes, there were always people complaining about how much it sucks now.

I don't feel as connected to the other players now, but well, obviously I don't. I'm an old-timer. Connections are largely formed in your first few months. And most of the people who were here then, whom I was discovering the forums with in mid 2004, have moved on. As it happens the ones who stayed were simply not the ones I was friends with. That's life.

There were always fools, and there was always quality, but you had to find the quality yourself. It was buried among the ranks of fools. And then isolated in the midst of the community among like-minded people, you could safely ignore the fools, most of the time. But gradually they would intrude on your group, and it would become less fun, and one person after another would leave. And simultaneously, elsewhere in the forum, a new community of quality was forming, unbeknownst to you -- and perhaps eventually the remnants of the old would merge into the new, beginning the process again.

As always, it's what you make of it, nothing more.

[SD_Film Artists]

The mods should really make a new rule to stop the creation of new threads on old problems.

*closes up shop, puts a padlock on the door*

Goodnight everybody! NSG is closed.

What do you think this is? A bar??

*Yorkshire accent* Come'on now son, I think you've had enough posts for one night..'avent yaou got a home to go to.." *closes up shop, puts a padlock on the door*


If the internet had closing hours...

[Kiskaanak]

Naturally. Some are more guilty than others, though.

I will leave that for observers to decide.

Exactly. Because there is strong inability for 'some others' (never oneself of course) to see their own hypocrisy. That might entail dealing with it, trying not to do it, or other such unacceptable outcomes.

But yes, let's pretend there is some sort of objective group of observers who will prove 'some others' wrong and absolve us of any wrongdoing because when we do it, we're right.

Of course, that requires them to actually present an argument, with sources, in order to properly address that argument, which a lot of people (old and new) fail to do. The new I suspect don't because they don't know how. The old don't because they've gotten lazy.

Hahahaha, and some people who think they are really smart are actually embarrassingly clumsy, but much too arrogant to notice.

Ah. I remember the 'good old days' when Neo Art held 'some others' in open contempt for attempting to piggyback on his arguments when 'some others' clearly did not understand them. Now 'some others' quote him in his absence.

High-larious.

[Kalysk]

Certainly feels like there are fewer cliques.

And who knows, maybe that's a good thing?

[Serrland]

It seems to have birthed all sorts of bizarre internet forum cliques...

Not really. All that pony rubbish was on 4Chan circa 8 years ago, and was then picked up here. The solution over there, which was to DoS people after a pretend amnesty, was genius.

Makes sense. I've avoided 4chan like the plague (for many of the same reasons I avoid F7, to be honest), so the "bronies" nonsense was fairly new to me - my only other forums are footy forums and alternate history forums.

[Kiskaanak]

The mods should really make a new rule to stop the creation of new threads on old problems.

Good lord, what would we discuss?

Although some forums do refuse to open up certain things for debate...deciding which topics are 'off limits' because it's too fucking stupid to seriously let people discuss it would be very difficult I think.

To me it's the lack of quality in the way people debate. Good posters often have to 'coax' crappy posters into making an actual definable argument while crappy posters believe they have already won the debate.

[The Corparation]

<Inert generic it used to work that way in the past till the great F7 crackdown rant.

There was not enough of a crackdown. It was too much like 2011 Syria and not enough like 1960s China or that thing with Pol Pot.

Actually, I wish it was more like Pol Pot. Then we'd get a wicked Dead Kennedy's song.

"Holiday in Forum 7"
(To the tune of "Holiday in Cambodia)

So you been on NSG
For a year or two
And you know you've seen it all
On daddy's PC
Thinkin' you'll go far
But on F7 your type don't crawl

Play ethnicky jazz
To parade your snazz
On your five grand stereo
Braggin' that you know
How the niggers feel cold
And the slums got so much soul

It's time to taste what you most fear
Right Max will not help you here
Brace yourself, my dear:

It's a holiday on Forum 7
It's wierd, kid, but it's life
It's a holiday in Forum 7
Don't forget to pack a knife

You're a star-belly sneech
You suck like a leach
You want everyone to act like you
Kiss ass while you bitch
So you can get Lulz
But the others get more lulz off you

Well you'll troll harder
With a mod on your back
For a bowl of rice a day
Slave for Max
Till you starve
Then your head is skewered in moderation

Now you can go where posters are one
Now you can go where they get things done
What you need, my son:.

Is a holiday on Forum 7
Where people post in games
A holiday on Forum 7
Where you'll kiss ass or crack

Forum 7, Forum 7, Forum 7, Forum 7, [etc]

And it's a holiday in Forum 7
Where you'll do what you're told
A holiday on Forum7
Where the spams got so much soul

[Kiskaanak]

-Is it a pipe dream of an NSG that never existed?

I dunno, we've lost some quality posters. Fass, who was brilliant, posters like IV Stalin that outgrew this place, Zooke, obviously (shame her place in the collective memory is 'as someone in whose name Nanatsu no Tsuki gets prizes'), most of the crowd that went to other forums and all the rest.

They've been replaced with... well... nobody...

The least spectacular remain, floating to the top in the absence of good posters.

[Galloism]

Naturally. Some are more guilty than others, though.

I will leave that for observers to decide.

Exactly. Because there is strong inability for 'some others' (never oneself of course) to see their own hypocrisy. That might entail dealing with it, trying not to do it, or other such unacceptable outcomes.

Indeed. I have observed that a lot lately.

But yes, let's pretend there is some sort of objective group of observers who will prove 'some others' wrong and absolve us of any wrongdoing because when we do it, we're right.

There you go, misrepresenting what I said. I never said any group of observers were, in any way, objective. I merely point out that, in most NSG arguments, the argument is, itself, futile - as both sides have made up their minds based on whatever dataset they've used, and very rarely are they actually willing to listen. Even more rarely, they actually change their mind.

Myself, I've had my mind changed on only a dozen or so occasions in all of NSG, but I do listen.

However, the real winners in any knockdown drag-out argument are the observers, generally. As they have no dog in the fight, they are more apt to listen to all the opposing arguments and come to a more well-rounded opinion.

Thus, I leave it to the observers to decide. What they learn, from both sides, is what will impact them for life.

Of course, that requires them to actually present an argument, with sources, in order to properly address that argument, which a lot of people (old and new) fail to do. The new I suspect don't because they don't know how. The old don't because they've gotten lazy.

Hahahaha, and some people who think they are really smart are actually embarrassingly clumsy, but much too arrogant to notice.

Ah. I remember the 'good old days' when Neo Art held 'some others' in open contempt for attempting to piggyback on his arguments when 'some others' clearly did not understand them. Now 'some others' quote him in his absence.

High-larious.

/shrug

Laugh if it keeps you happy. I have no interest.

Now, is this thread about a serious topic, or did you just come here to try to bait me?

[Steel and Fire]

Why I keep coming back here complaining about this, I don't know. But I do. Is it a pipe dream of an NSG that never existed? I like to think I'm more realistic than that, but hey, in your opinion I'm probably a loon so who knows.

No. It really did exist, and while it existed, it was good.

But it no longer exists for you or for me. One by one the good people became disheartened, and left -- some for other forums, others simply to other NS subcommunities; until those who remained were too few to be a community and knew it, and had this pervasive and throat-lumpening feeling of having been left behind.

It exists now for a generation of posters who joined in 2011 or 2010, the fools of an earlier age, who even now are feeling that, undoubtedly, never before has there been a community so pleasant and civilised as theirs. Undoubtedly we, of course, find them completely ridiculous, and absolutely incomparable to our conception of NSG at its height. And soon their ranks too shall diminish, and the stragglers shall join us in the crowd of the perpetually nostalgic.

[Kiskaanak]

I have never routinely participated in the ritualized e-peen swords battle of debate. So I will not presume to talk about the quality of debate. That is not my domain. I am but an occasional dabbler.

The community threads took a big hit with the F7 divide when anything social/chatty in General was stomped out. Now, that error has been substantially rectified. The influx of former F7ers to these forums is a good thing from my perspective; in the heyday of F7 I was an occasional participant there and many posters who I appreciate have come across that way. I think that the ever-stricter PG-13 stance is choking out a lot of discussions that would have been allowed to pass previously, and that is something I think impacts upon a lot of people's enjoyment of the forum since so many threads get shut down early. The biggest disappointment for me though has been the declining appreciation for satire. The amount of times I have seen something genuinely funny and then seen dozens of posters responding with "ZOMG TROLL" and the subsequent arrival of a rapid mod-lock is something I regard as a profoundly negative development. Satire threads were one of the things I really enjoyed when I first joined NSG, and to see their demise has been rather disheartening.

I can't say anything about F7 but I totally agree about the satire. It seems to be the case that people are honestly too fucking stupid to get even the most blatantly honest satire. Thus, it is shut down because...you have to be able to reach your audience and if hitting them over the head with it doesn't work, then your satire apparently 'fails'.

[Cannot think of a name]

The only thing that ever changes is when people think 'the good ol' days' where.

[Kiskaanak]

There was not enough of a crackdown. It was too much like 2011 Syria and not enough like 1960s China or that thing with Pol Pot.

[Seangoli]

*treads carefully*

This forum still has pretty good quality. The only "going downhill" effects, I think, were the leaving of Cat-Tribe and Hammurab and the seemingly gradual yet continuous tightening of rules on the forum.

It used to be that we were told to "grow a thicker skin" if we got offended.

I haven't seen that phrase in I don't know how long.

It seems like taking a borderline opinion is, itself, nearly an expression of trolling or flamebaiting anymore, rather than the core of discussion.

Other than that, things are going ok.

I think that's the most jarring difference these days, is the increasingly tight rules(Not that much more than in the past, but still pretty bad). Not to get into a back in my day rant(Because my start date can easily be trumped by much older folks), but when I joined there were some... interesting characters about to say the least. And threads as well. However, looking over some of the threads that have been closed recently I can't help but remember a time when such topics were actually allowed.

I have seen many mod rulings I'm not sure I agree with(Once again stemming from the leniency of the past), and people getting blamed for trolling simply due to a borderline opinion, and mod action being taken against them. Won't dispute the decisions they make, but I don't necessarily agree with some personally(Which counts for jack-all).

Really though, that's about it that's different.

[Hydesland]

Fass

Really? You miss Fass? I mean sure, was he witty? Yes. Was he intelligent? Yes. Was he actually good at debating, or rather, did he even bother to debate? Absolutely not. Fass is exactly the sort of poster I'm glad doesn't really exist on NSG any more.