Have True Fascism & National Socialism Ever Existed?

[Petty Bourgeoise Restoration]

Members of this forum go on ad nauseum about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.

By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?

Mussolini & Hitler each clearly deviated from their ideology. Mussolini never embraced corporatism and assigned laborers & managers separate but equal councils to arrange the economy. Rather, he caved to crony capitalism.

Hitler also failed to enact the nationalizaions and redistributions of means of production advocated by people like the Strasser brothers, and also caved to big business.

Is it really fair to badmouth fascism & national socialism given that the two countries championing them never actually carried them out?

[Forster Keys]

Members of this forum go on ad nauseum about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.

By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?

Mussolini & Hitler each clearly deviated from their ideology. Mussolini never embraced corporatism and assigned laborers & managers separate but equal councils to arrange the economy. Rather, he caved to crony capitalism.

Hitler also failed to enact the nationalizaions and redistributions of means of production advocated by people like the Strasser brothers, and also caved to big business.

Is it really fair to badmouth fascism & national socialism given that the two countries championing them never actually carried them out?

As left as I am, the whole genonicdal police state aspects kind of overshadow inconsistencies in their economic policies.

[Raw Nation]

well there is that town that Disney runs

[The Floridian Coast]

Implying that fascism minus racism would be appealing is like saying drinking piss is good as long as there's no arsenic mixed in.

[Anthoniland]

Well yea it is fair to bad mouth Fascism because of the lack of human rights and the ultra-nationalist parts of it's ideology. National Socialism is even worse since it is racist.

[Platonic Dreams]

By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?

Yes, and you could argue that no political theory has ever existed. Humans always ruin it.

[Rumbria]

Implying that fascism minus racism would be appealing is like saying drinking piss is good as long as there's no arsenic mixed in.

Actually, I believe there are actually proven health benefits to drinking ones own pish. So your statement is, strangely, accurate.

[New Illuve]

Not to mention that there are people that get a sexual thrill out of urine...

[Rumbria]

That too, but I was trying to keep it highbrow my good man.

[Permutatia]

Mussolini didn't even have a real ideology in the first place. He was nothing but a hardcore Machiavellian manipulator. For example, he started as a militant atheist, later he put god in every single speech he made. Fascism is the pure manifestation of the immoral, cynical and sociopathic want of personal power above other people. I wouldn't call it an ideology, it's a political manifestation of a mental degeneration.

[GreaterPacificNations]

True fascists are about as hard to identify in history as true scotsmen.

[Moral Libertarians]

Mussolini didn't even have a real ideology in the first place. He was nothing but a hardcore Machiavellian manipulator. For example, he started as a militant atheist, later he put god in every single speech he made. Fascism is the pure manifestation of the immoral, cynical and sociopathic want of personal power above other people. I wouldn't call it an ideology, it's a political manifestation of a mental degeneration.

I applaud you, sir.

[Risottia]

Members of this forum go on ad nauseumam about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.

By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?

No. Because the historical Communist leaders said they had NOT YET implemented a Communist society - they said they were in the Socialist phase still.
While the historical Nazi and Fascist leaders said they had implemented National Socialism and Fascism respectively.

[Risottia]

Well yea it is fair to bad mouth Fascism because of the lack of human rights and the ultra-nationalist parts of it's ideology. National Socialism is even worse since it is racist.

I don't understand this myth about Fascism NOT being racist, expecially when the top PNF leaders stated that "all that Fascism has done so far is basically racism". (Achille Starace, 1938, see "Manifesto degli scienziati fascisti per la difesa della razza")

[The Congregationists]

Not to mention that there are people that get a sexual thrill out of urine...

And apparantly, Hitler was one of them.

I've always thought the merits of an ideology were a lot more about practice than theory. Claiming that instance after instance of actual failed practice of an ideology were the result of the theory not being properly implemented start to sound like excuse making to me. Maybe the theory just can't be implemented in the real world, and is therefore bad theory.

Certainly Fascism and National Socialism existed historically - in the inter-war governments of Italy and Germany. I wouldn't bet on either ideology having another shot at implementation any time soon, given how those two ended up working out.

[Ceannairceach]

Mussolini didn't even have a real ideology in the first place. He was nothing but a hardcore Machiavellian manipulator. For example, he started as a militant atheist, later he put god in every single speech he made. Fascism is the pure manifestation of the immoral, cynical and sociopathic want of personal power above other people. I wouldn't call it an ideology, it's a political manifestation of a mental degeneration.

I would disagree. In "true fascism", if I am forced to use the term, a leader only serves as a cog in the machine of a Fascist state, like anyone else. Mussolini certainly wasn't the best example of a Fascist leader, despite his famed use of it.

Also, on what authority do you define it is immoral?

[Misterfisher minions]

Members of this forum go on ad nauseum about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.

By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?

Mussolini & Hitler each clearly deviated from their ideology. Mussolini never embraced corporatism and assigned laborers & managers separate but equal councils to arrange the economy. Rather, he caved to crony capitalism.

Hitler also failed to enact the nationalizaions and redistributions of means of production advocated by people like the Strasser brothers, and also caved to big business.

Is it really fair to badmouth fascism & national socialism given that the two countries championing them never actually carried them out?

Hitler and Mussolini nationalized their economies, it was state planism, not capitalism at all.

Think hard about why Hitler called his Party National-Socialist: http://mises.org/daily/1937

Also Mussolini began his political activity as a socialist: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/musso.html

[Malgrave]

Members of this forum go on ad nauseum about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.

By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?

Mussolini & Hitler each clearly deviated from their ideology. Mussolini never embraced corporatism and assigned laborers & managers separate but equal councils to arrange the economy. Rather, he caved to crony capitalism.

Hitler also failed to enact the nationalizaions and redistributions of means of production advocated by people like the Strasser brothers, and also caved to big business.

Is it really fair to badmouth fascism & national socialism given that the two countries championing them never actually carried them out?

Hitler and Mussolini nationalized their economies, it was state planism, not capitalism at all.

Think hard about why Hitler called his Party National-Socialist: http://mises.org/daily/1937

Also Mussolini began his political activity as a socialist: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/musso.html

Germany was highly leftist at the time. It made sense for Hitler to put socialist in his name to trick a few voters.

[Risottia]

Hitler and Mussolini nationalized their economies

Yes, I'm sure that Krupp and Agnelli supported Hitler and Mussolini EXACTLY because they nationalized their industries.
Oh wait, no, they didn't.

[Misterfisher minions]

Germany was highly leftist at the time. It made sense for Hitler to put socialist in his name to trick a few voters.

Indeed, it was very leftist! Thanks to Marx and other german socialist thinkers, people felt perfectly fine with the idea of a Governmental control/ownership over the economy. The control of the economy is a control over human life.

Hitler inspired himself from socialist economic and social policies, he added an heavy touch of nationalism/racism: Nazism was born.

But the Socialist word is certainly not only a mean to trick a few voter: it is full of meaning.
Other interesting things to see: People like Goebbels, Himmler or Rohm started their political careers as communists or socialists.
So did Mussolini.
So did Doriot, Laval, Darnand and Déat, the french nazi traitors.
Fascists often refered to Sorel and Saint Simon, two french socialist thinkers.
Extreme from both sides tend to join each other, no question about it.

[Misterfisher minions]

Yes, I'm sure that Krupp and Agnelli supported Hitler and Mussolini EXACTLY because they nationalized their industries.
Oh wait, no, they didn't.

I mean, they didn't killed the private property, but that was the only part of the socialist agenda they did NOT use as an official policy.

Krupp and Agnelli supported those two totalitarian fucks because they feared communism and were not smart enough to understand and defend the free market system which was allowing them to succeed. to them.

[Alaje]

Hitler and Mussolini nationalized their economies

Yes, I'm sure that Krupp and Agnelli supported Hitler and Mussolini EXACTLY because they nationalized their industries.
Oh wait, no, they didn't.

In Fascism, the economy was supposed to be between nationalization and outright private ownership. The company owners, such as the Krupps in Germany you've metioned, maintained private control of their holdings, but the government tells them what it needs and subsidizes them. So it was pretty much a system of Dirigism, the Fascist states did alot of nationalization aswell though.

Also, yes Fascism, in my opinion, is very closely related to Socialism. Look into the history of the national syndicalist organization Action Française, it is concidered proto-fascist by alot of people.

[Petty Bourgeoise Restoration]

Germany was highly leftist at the time. It made sense for Hitler to put socialist in his name to trick a few voters.

No, Hitler was not the inventor of national socialism. There were plenty of other thinkers involved in creating the ideology. And if you look at how much Hitler defied the original demands of the party platform, we see that he was quite the revisionist.

The same goes for Mussolini

[Misterfisher minions]

In Fascism, the economy was supposed to be between nationalization and outright private ownership. The company owners, such as the Krupps in Germany you've metioned, maintained private control of their holdings, but the government tells them what it needs and subsidizes them. So it was pretty much a system of Dirigism, the Fascist states did alot of nationalization though.

Also, yes Fascism, in my opinion, is very closely related to Socialism. Look into the history of the national syndicalist organization Action Française, it is concidered proto-fascist by alot of people.

1) Nothing like an honest person to revive a thread.

2) Well, in fact they focused their action on Royalism. And this old reactionary movement turned widely against the fascists.

In London, De Gaulle's best militaries were from Action Française ( Leclerc, De Larminat, De Lattre de Tassigny...). They were aristocrats, too.

[Trotskylvania]

Yes, I'm sure that Krupp and Agnelli supported Hitler and Mussolini EXACTLY because they nationalized their industries.
Oh wait, no, they didn't.

I mean, they didn't killed the private property, but that was the only part of the socialist agenda they did NOT use as an official policy.

Krupp and Agnelli supported those two totalitarian fucks because they feared communism and were not smart enough to understand and defend the free market system which was allowing them to succeed. to them.

Krupp and Agnelli had never existed under a free market.

Lean a little bit about German history, please. Prussia, and the German Empire that followed it, always had a highly statist economic system.The Krupp conglomerate and others had been built into giant industrial empires by the state. Prussian statism is very much the reason why Germany developed into a very powerful industrial economy, catching up to and surpassing Britain and France in many fields (the only area that they never really reached parity with Britain was naval architecture, which was the British state's crown jewel).

Hitler only intensified existing Prussian statism, and borrowed the socialist moniker because it was popular. Incidentally, Socialists in Germany had always been opposed to Prussian statism and Bismarck's slogans of Staatssozialismus , rightly seeing it as reinforcing capitalist property relations with the full power of the state.

Fascism and National Socialism may have originally had left-wing roots, but they had long since abandoned any such principles by the time they took power.