Without America Would the Allies have lost WWII?

[Yootopia]

Why do people think that the USSR would necessarily have beaten the Germans anyway?

Larger production base, much higher population, more diverse natural resources and a command economy that provided a smooth(ish) transition to a wartime economy, esp. since in the latter half of the 1930s the Russians were already spending a vast amount on military production and R&D.

Did they not have all these things in June 1941?

Well no. The Germans didn't have a larger population than the USSR at any point in the war, nor did it have comparably safe areas to produce arms, it lacked oil and natural gas and the economy wasn't quite as easy to control by the German authorities.

Technically the population of Germany and her allies and her occupied territory in 1942 was quite similar to the portion of the USSR that remained in Stalin's hands.

OK, if we're adding allies to this as well, then the British Empire plus the USSR is pretty much overbearing against Germany and its allies, occupied territories etc.

The only natural resource that Germany was short on in 1942 was oil and it didn't become a REAL problem until 1944.

I dunno, they were pretty low on tungsten by 1943, which impacted on AT shell efficiency. Plus the lack of natural gas fields and oil also meant that Autarky operations took up a lot of time and effort which they probably could have been used better elsewhere.

I also think the Germans spent quite a lot on military production and R&D

Undoubtedly.

[United Russian State]

The question should be:
Without Canada, would the Allies have lost WWII?

Nope. Only nation needed on the western front was Britian.

[The Master M]

It wasn't just Canada, think the rest of the commonwealth as well. Also, without Polish, French, Dutch, Belgian, Nordes, Finnish, Czech etc soldiers and especially pilots the Battle of Britain could have swung the other way.

[Yootopia]

Also, without Lend-Lease, Hitler might not have declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

Erm Hitler declaring war on the US was rather immaterial

I disagree. There was still an extremely strong isolationist sentiment in the US even after Pearl Harbor that only wanted war declared on Japan.

Aye but it's not like the Germans did anything to the US other than sink a couple of ships now and then.

[Garethdom]

Yes, while it would have taken longer, the Soviets would still have beaten the Germans, whilst Britain would have adopted more aggressive bombing of German cities. The end result would have been much of Europe falling under Soviet domination whilst Britain liberated France, and pushed back the Japanese in the Far East. Following on from this there would have been three competing powers on the world stage, the United States, the Soviet Union, and an even larger British Empire which now occupied Japan.

[Yootopia]

Yes, while it would have taken longer, the Soviets would still have beaten the Germans, whilst Britain would have adopted more aggressive bombing of German cities. The end result would have been much of Europe falling under Soviet domination whilst Britain liberated France, and pushed back the Japanese in the Far East. Following on from this there would have been three competing powers on the world stage, the United States, the Soviet Union, and an even larger British Empire which now occupied Japan.

Unlikely. Britain was off to die on the international stage by about 1943 due to the cost of the war.

[Clypson]

Axis would have been defeated
USSR would have much more land
USA would still be in the depression, which also means no moon landing, no super power, no Korea or Vietnam.

Idk, I may be going a little overboard with it.

Nonetheless, that's all part of America's culture now, and at least we can say "Hey... We tried, and in some instances, we succeeded."

[Yootopia]

Axis would have been defeated
USSR would have much more land
USA would still be in the depression, which also means no moon landing, no super power, no Korea or Vietnam.

Why?

The US got out of its depression due, in part, to lend-lease with Britain before it got engaged in the war properly. Not going to war and getting more loans to the British and USSR would probably have put them in a better position at war's end.

[The South Islands]

Lend Lease was simply that, US economic stimulus. Sure, it was nice, but is surely was not vital. The Soviet Union would have won anyway, probably on about the same timetable. Naturally, this would have lead to a soviet dominated continental Europe. One wonders how Britain would have faired had Europe indeed become Communist.

[Yootopia]

Lend Lease was simply that, US economic stimulus. Sure, it was nice, but is surely was not vital. The Soviet Union would have won anyway, probably on about the same timetable.

I dunno, the massive influx of trucks and fuel certainly helped the Russians get their territory back quicker.

One wonders how Britain would have faired had Europe indeed become Communist.

Pretty alright, as per usual.

[Oyoyo]

Most likely the Allies would've won the war, but without American intervention the war would've lasted a bit longer.

The USSR and Britain were really the ones needed to take care of Germany, but Japan would've probably taken over a lot of territory had they not been bombed. The only thing America was needed for was bringing supplies over to Britain. But if that counts as being in the war, I'm not too certain about the outcome.

[Gleinster]

Yootopia
I cant do this as neatly as you. But here goes.

Is it unreasonable to add the populations of those countries whose armies solely fought on the front lines against the USSR with Germany to the population of the German Empire for this purpose?
Greater Germany, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Finland, the Baltic States, Not to mention considerable brigades from Poland, Ukraine, Belarus.

Honestly if I thought that a lack of tungsten did anything more material than reduce the effectiveness of Anti-armour shells by a single digit percentage I would have included it. Materially speaking there was no great lack in German production output, Vichy took care of that.

And my last point was that although by the end of the war the USSR was vastly outstripping Germany in production that had a lot to do with the total strangulation of shipping that resulted from American entry into the war, at the apogee of German power the USSR had only a slight advantage in production, certainly not enough to guarantee victory.

[Sdaeriji]

Lend Lease was simply that, US economic stimulus. Sure, it was nice, but is surely was not vital. The Soviet Union would have won anyway, probably on about the same timetable. Naturally, this would have lead to a soviet dominated continental Europe. One wonders how Britain would have faired had Europe indeed become Communist.

The transportation capabilities of the USSR would have been vastly insufficient without the massive influx of US-built trains and trucks. There is no way they could have adequately supplied their front lines or moved their army to maintain coherent resistance to German advances. Lend-Lease was vital to Soviet survival.

[The South Islands]

Lend Lease was simply that, US economic stimulus. Sure, it was nice, but is surely was not vital. The Soviet Union would have won anyway, probably on about the same timetable. Naturally, this would have lead to a soviet dominated continental Europe. One wonders how Britain would have faired had Europe indeed become Communist.

The transportation capabilities of the USSR would have been vastly insufficient without the massive influx of US-built trains and trucks. There is no way they could have adequately supplied their front lines or moved their army to maintain coherent resistance to German advances. Lend-Lease was vital to Soviet survival.

In a hypothetical situation where the US is not involved, the Soviet Union would have had more then sufficient resources and industry to make up for the relatively insignificant contributions from the United States. We never really saw the might of Soviet Industry simply because by the time industry had been relocated out of danger, US supplies began to come through.

[Gleinster]

And wait, my point was that the Soviet Union had more troops, equipment and a larger production base in 1941 and yet were still beaten back with ridiculous losses.

[The South Islands]

One wonders how Britain would have faired had Europe indeed become Communist.

Pretty alright, as per usual.

Certainly, it would not have been invaded. I was more wondering about its posture following the war. Would it have tried to go the Finnish "Don't piss off the Soviets" route, or would they have drifted into the soviet sphere of influence, like a capitalist, free Yugoslavia?

[Exilia and Colonies]

Britain would have sued for peace around 1943, having driven the Germans/Italians out of North Africa, but also having run out of money without American support. Then Germany and the USSR would beat the shit out of each other while everyone else sits around looking bemused. No idea how that would play out though. Japan would take over Asia in the meantime.

[Sdaeriji]

Lend Lease was simply that, US economic stimulus. Sure, it was nice, but is surely was not vital. The Soviet Union would have won anyway, probably on about the same timetable. Naturally, this would have lead to a soviet dominated continental Europe. One wonders how Britain would have faired had Europe indeed become Communist.

The transportation capabilities of the USSR would have been vastly insufficient without the massive influx of US-built trains and trucks. There is no way they could have adequately supplied their front lines or moved their army to maintain coherent resistance to German advances. Lend-Lease was vital to Soviet survival.

In a hypothetical situation where the US is not involved, the Soviet Union would have had more then sufficient resources and industry to make up for the relatively insignificant contributions from the United States. We never really saw the might of Soviet Industry simply because by the time industry had been relocated out of danger, US supplies began to come through.

What do you base these assertions upon? What was the USSR doing with all this excess industry that could have more then made up for the "relatively insignificant contributions" of over 2000 locomotives (versus 92 produced by Soviet industry), 19% of their air force, and over two-thirds of their trucks? If they had all this extra industry and resources, why the need for American hardware? Your argument makes no sense.

[Yootopia]

Yootopia
I cant do this as neatly as you. But here goes.

Is it unreasonable to add the populations of those countries whose armies solely fought on the front lines against the USSR with Germany to the population of the German Empire for this purpose?

Greater Germany, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Finland, the Baltic States, Not to mention considerable brigades from Poland, Ukraine, Belarus.

Not really, but then you get into an argument over what counts in terms of numbers. Just frontline troops? The entire populations?

Honestly if I thought that a lack of tungsten did anything more material than reduce the effectiveness of Anti-armour shells by a single digit percentage I would have included it. Materially speaking there was no great lack in German production output, Vichy took care of that.

Dunno, tungsten rounds for the 75mm PaK 40 were about 15% more effective. Useful.

And my last point was that although by the end of the war the USSR was vastly outstripping Germany in production that had a lot to do with the total strangulation of shipping that resulted from American entry into the war

Err... the Germans were fucked for shipping right from the off, seeing as the Royal Navy was far larger than the German Navy at any point.

at the apogee of German power the USSR had only a slight advantage in production, certainly not enough to guarantee victory.

It still had a massive advantage in manpower and the diversity of resources available.

[Yootopia]

Britain would have sued for peace around 1943, having driven the Germans/Italians out of North Africa, but also having run out of money without American support.

Wut? We paid for the war the whole way through.

[The South Islands]

The transportation capabilities of the USSR would have been vastly insufficient without the massive influx of US-built trains and trucks. There is no way they could have adequately supplied their front lines or moved their army to maintain coherent resistance to German advances. Lend-Lease was vital to Soviet survival.

In a hypothetical situation where the US is not involved, the Soviet Union would have had more then sufficient resources and industry to make up for the relatively insignificant contributions from the United States. We never really saw the might of Soviet Industry simply because by the time industry had been relocated out of danger, US supplies began to come through.

What do you base these assertions upon? What was the USSR doing with all this excess industry that could have more then made up for the "relatively insignificant contributions" of over 2000 locomotives (versus 92 produced by Soviet industry), 19% of their air force, and over two-thirds of their trucks? If they had all this extra industry and resources, why the need for American hardware? Your argument makes no sense.

Someone read the lend lease wikipedia article.

Anyway, the reason they took American aid was simple economics. They were getting free* shit from America. Why bother retooling factories and retraining the work force to produce goods that were only supporting the war effort (ie, no glory) when it was much simpler to continue using developed heavy industry to produce military material?

The production figures show that the Soviet Union vastly outproduced the UK and US in tanks, small arms, artillery, and other direct war material (absolute contraband, in the words of the 1909 London Declaration). They, in their communist wisdom, simply considered that continuing to produce war material would be a better use of resources then rejecting American aid and retooling factories to produce trucks, locomotives, and other vital (yet supporting) goods.

Essentially, they let the Americans do the dirty work.

[Her Royal Crown]

The Allies likely would have beaten the Axis. But no one would have won the war. Without the US the war would have gone on much longer, with no side quite having the resources to quickly finish of the other. In the end Europe would have been a virtual wasteland and would have taken years to recover. I imagine the US would have come out much stronger though.

Oh, and whatever advantages the USSR might have had over Germany..it's offset by one thing. Stalin. He single-handedly almost completely crippled his own war effort, not even Hitler was as paranoid and incompetent.

[Dyakovo]

If America was not involved in Europe or the Pacific, would Britain and France be speaking German, or a Communist Europe arise.

In my opinion, the war would have been extended probably until 1946 which by that point the British would have been out and the Soviets pushed into Berlin and into France.

It depends ....

If you mean direct military involvement, then no the allies would not have lost, although probably would have a communist Europe.

If you mean no involvement whatsoever (no military involvement, no lend-lease) then it is possible that the allies could have lost, but I still think they would have won, and again probably with a communist Europe.

[Exilia and Colonies]

Britain would have sued for peace around 1943, having driven the Germans/Italians out of North Africa, but also having run out of money without American support.

Wut? We paid for the war the whole way through.

Without Lend-Lease we would have had to pay for all that stuff we imported from America, and without American ships to defend the convoys would have lost a lot more of it. World War 2 bankrupted us even with American aid.

[Yootopia]

Britain would have sued for peace around 1943, having driven the Germans/Italians out of North Africa, but also having run out of money without American support.

Wut? We paid for the war the whole way through.

Without Lend-Lease we would have had to pay for all that stuff we imported from America

... that was what Lend-Lease was.