NationStates

Tekania wrote:The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster has decreed through His Most Holy Prophet, that Homosexuality is okay.

Now that we've settled appeal to authority, we can move on.

I refuse to acknowledge the FSM, on grounds that no just, pasta-themed deity would ever allow for the existence of alfredo sauce. I cannot imagine noodley godhood allowing such evil to persist, so either he does not exist...or he is an evil, vengeful God that is unworthy of our worship.

Flameswroth wrote:

Tekania wrote:The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster has decreed through His Most Holy Prophet, that Homosexuality is okay.

Now that we've settled appeal to authority, we can move on.

I refuse to acknowledge the FSM, on grounds that no just, pasta-themed deity would ever allow for the existence of alfredo sauce. I cannot imagine noodley godhood allowing such evil to persist, so either he does not exist...or he is an evil, vengeful God that is unworthy of our worship.

Alfredo is good... assuming you make it yourself and don't attempt that crap people buy in jars... As it's so easy to make it even makes less sense. But some nice shrimp or broccoli fettuccine Alfredo...mmmmmmmmmmmmmm yes... I'm in heaven.

Besides, I believe the Flying Fettuccine Alfredo Monster (FFAM) should be a lesser deity in the Flying Pasta Monster Pantheon.

Great Anthonland wrote:Tell me what you think about LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) rights. And also explain why you hold that view.

I think LGBT rights are important. In fact, their rights are just as important as their lefts (possibly more so, since more people are right handed).






Seriously, LGBT people are as human as the rest of us, and I wouldn't be upset if they had the same rights.

Draconian Races wrote:

EnragedMaldivians wrote:
I'll assume that a God exists for the purposes of this discussion.

I was raised Muslim. Why should I think beleive that the Bibles conception of God is the correct one?

Seeing as that I am an atheist now, what is the criteria for beleiving in any religions conceptions of God. The literature only asserts that what it says is true - it does not prove it.

So I ask you again - do you have any proof that God dissaproves of homosexuality?

Well if you are atheist, then the question is pointless, as no matter what I say, you will try to disprove it with "God does not exist"

And as I believe the only True God is the one of the Bible... yes, I can prove it via that.

No, you really can't. Only insane people think they can prove God exists. Such as Lyras who thinks the bible can prove Jesus' divinity.

Wiztopia wrote:

Draconian Races wrote:
Well if you are atheist, then the question is pointless, as no matter what I say, you will try to disprove it with "God does not exist"

And as I believe the only True God is the one of the Bible... yes, I can prove it via that.

No, you really can't. Only insane people think they can prove God exists. Such as Lyras who thinks the bible can prove Jesus' divinity.

I know quite a few people who believe God exists who aren't, in fact, insane.

Buffett and Colbert wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
No, you really can't. Only insane people think they can prove God exists. Such as Lyras who thinks the bible can prove Jesus' divinity.

I know quite a few people who believe God exists who aren't, in fact, insane.

You're insane if you think you can prove it.

I believe God exists... oh wait... I'm insane...

Wiztopia wrote:No, you really can't. Only insane people think they can prove God exists. Such as Lyras who thinks the bible can prove Jesus' divinity.

Those barely cognizant homeless guys who appear to be arguing with themselves are actually prophets arguing with God over the fate of our species.

Draconian Races wrote:

-St George wrote:The Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality.
God doesn't approve or disapprove.

Incorrect. It does condemn it, and He doesnt approve.

You are wrong. Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality is condemned, and only Leviticus condemns homosexuality (if only be calling it dirty). But guess what? Leviticus is a book of rules for Jewish priests. Guess what no. 2? Leviticus is apart of the Old Covenant, which hasn't been relevant since the Third Century AD when the New Covenant was formed.

Does Paul ever condemn homosexuality? No he doesn't. In Romans he criticised a group of heterosexual Christians who left the church and took part, firstly, in heterosexual orgies, moving onto homosexuality. Paul criticised it for being unnatural for them, before going on to say that God made them, or led them, to become homosexuals.

In Corinthians, Paul never talks about homosexuals. It is only through intentional mistranslations that the New international Version, the New American Standard version and several others have completely changed the meaning of the verse. The NIV, NASB, etc, rewrote the entire fucking verse to make it read as a condemnation of homosexuality. Arsenokoitai does not mean homosexuals. It is an invented word, by Paul, that no one knows the meaning of.

You need to educate yourself on the Bible, mainly its key fucking message, that of tolerance.

Episarta wrote:They should be given all the same rights as everyone else. There is no logical reason to deny them these rights. Can anyone give a good reason, one that does not invoke the name of a god or holy book or something of the sort?

No one can give a good reason, but that doesn't mean people will stop believing they shouldn't have rights.

Homosexual rights why? Because it does no harm to anyone else to give them, but not giving them does harm people. Simple common sense and humanity. I defy any religious objection to be able to say the same.

Buffett and Colbert wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
No, you really can't. Only insane people think they can prove God exists. Such as Lyras who thinks the bible can prove Jesus' divinity.

I know quite a few people who believe God exists who aren't, in fact, insane.

Difference between belief and proof. Got it?

anyone who agree, must've confuse with their gender.

Gilsty wrote:anyone who agree, must've confuse with their gender.

What?

Gilsty wrote:anyone who agree, must've confuse with their gender.

You correct. Why ban no happen? Lawmakers must've homosexual be themselves. I outrage

Ceannairceach wrote:

Gilsty wrote:anyone who agree, must've confuse with their gender.

What?

Ditto.

What the fuck is he/she trying to say?

Gilsty wrote:anyone who agree, must've confuse with their gender.

Can you repeat that in Babylonian Cuneiform... I'm more likely to understand that.

-St George wrote:

Draconian Races wrote:
Incorrect. It does condemn it, and He doesnt approve.

You are wrong. Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality is condemned, and only Leviticus condemns homosexuality (if only be calling it dirty). But guess what? Leviticus is a book of rules for Jewish priests. Guess what no. 2? Leviticus is apart of the Old Covenant, which hasn't been relevant since the Third Century AD when the New Covenant was formed.

Does Paul ever condemn homosexuality? No he doesn't. In Romans he criticised a group of heterosexual Christians who left the church and took part, firstly, in heterosexual orgies, moving onto homosexuality. Paul criticised it for being unnatural for them, before going on to say that God made them, or led them, to become homosexuals.

In Corinthians, Paul never talks about homosexuals. It is only through intentional mistranslations that the New international Version, the New American Standard version and several others have completely changed the meaning of the verse. The NIV, NASB, etc, rewrote the entire fucking verse to make it read as a condemnation of homosexuality. Arsenokoitai does not mean homosexuals. It is an invented word, by Paul, that no one knows the meaning of.

You need to educate yourself on the Bible, mainly its key fucking message, that of tolerance.

There are six places in the Bible—three in the Old Testament and three in the New Testament—where this issue is directly addressed—not to mention all the passages dealing with marriage and sexuality which have implications for this issue. In all six of these passages homosexual acts are unequivocally condemned.

In Leviticus 18.22 it says that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as with a woman. In Lev. 20.13 the death penalty is prescribed in Israel for such an act, along with adultery, incest, and bestiality. Now sometimes homosexual advocates make light of these prohibitions by comparing them to prohibitions in the Old Testament against having contact with unclean animals like pigs. Just as Christians today don’t obey all of the Old Testament ceremonial laws, so, they say, we don’t have to obey the prohibitions of homosexual actions. But the problem with this argument is that the New Testament reaffirms the validity of the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexual behavior, as we’ll see below. This shows they were not just part of the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament, which were done away with, but were part of God’s everlasting moral law. Homosexual behavior is in God’s sight a serious sin. The third place where homosexual acts are mentioned in the Old Testament is the horrifying story in Genesis 19 of the attempted gang rape of Lot’s visitors by the men of Sodom, from which our word sodomy derives. God destroyed the city of Sodom because of their wickedness.

Now if this weren’t enough, the New Testament also forbids homosexual behavior. In I Cor. 6.9-10 Paul writes, “ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral,nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” The words in the list translated “men who practice homosexuality” refer in Greek literature to the passive and the active partners in male homosexual intercourse. (As I said, the Bible is very realistic!) The second of these two words is also listed in I Tim. 1.10 along with fornicators, slave traders, liars, and murderers as “contrary to the sound teaching of the Gospel.” The most lengthy treatment of homosexual activity comes in Romans 1.24-28. Here Paul talks about how people have turned away from the Creator God and begun to worship instead false gods of their own making. He says,

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."


--

It isnt about tolerance. Its about FORGIVENESS. Forgiveness is 'go and sin no more'. Not 'Do as thou wilt'.

The God of the OT was 'intolerant'. He is the same today, tomorrow, forever. The only thing that changed was that Christ became the intercessor, took the punishment for those who repent. The punishments are still dealt, but to Christ rather than to man.

Anyone try broaching the topic in a way that doesn't involve either religion or consequentialism yet?

Draconian Races wrote:

-St George wrote:You are wrong. Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality is condemned, and only Leviticus condemns homosexuality (if only be calling it dirty). But guess what? Leviticus is a book of rules for Jewish priests. Guess what no. 2? Leviticus is apart of the Old Covenant, which hasn't been relevant since the Third Century AD when the New Covenant was formed.

Does Paul ever condemn homosexuality? No he doesn't. In Romans he criticised a group of heterosexual Christians who left the church and took part, firstly, in heterosexual orgies, moving onto homosexuality. Paul criticised it for being unnatural for them, before going on to say that God made them, or led them, to become homosexuals.

In Corinthians, Paul never talks about homosexuals. It is only through intentional mistranslations that the New international Version, the New American Standard version and several others have completely changed the meaning of the verse. The NIV, NASB, etc, rewrote the entire fucking verse to make it read as a condemnation of homosexuality. Arsenokoitai does not mean homosexuals. It is an invented word, by Paul, that no one knows the meaning of.

You need to educate yourself on the Bible, mainly its key fucking message, that of tolerance.

There are six places in the Bible—three in the Old Testament and three in the New Testament—where this issue is directly addressed—not to mention all the passages dealing with marriage and sexuality which have implications for this issue. In all six of these passages homosexual acts are unequivocally condemned.

In Leviticus 18.22 it says that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as with a woman. In Lev. 20.13 the death penalty is prescribed in Israel for such an act, along with adultery, incest, and bestiality. Now sometimes homosexual advocates make light of these prohibitions by comparing them to prohibitions in the Old Testament against having contact with unclean animals like pigs. Just as Christians today don’t obey all of the Old Testament ceremonial laws, so, they say, we don’t have to obey the prohibitions of homosexual actions. But the problem with this argument is that the New Testament reaffirms the validity of the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexual behavior, as we’ll see below. This shows they were not just part of the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament, which were done away with, but were part of God’s everlasting moral law. Homosexual behavior is in God’s sight a serious sin. The third place where homosexual acts are mentioned in the Old Testament is the horrifying story in Genesis 19 of the attempted gang rape of Lot’s visitors by the men of Sodom, from which our word sodomy derives. God destroyed the city of Sodom because of their wickedness.

Now if this weren’t enough, the New Testament also forbids homosexual behavior. In I Cor. 6.9-10 Paul writes, “ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral,nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” The words in the list translated “men who practice homosexuality” refer in Greek literature to the passive and the active partners in male homosexual intercourse. (As I said, the Bible is very realistic!) The second of these two words is also listed in I Tim. 1.10 along with fornicators, slave traders, liars, and murderers as “contrary to the sound teaching of the Gospel.” The most lengthy treatment of homosexual activity comes in Romans 1.24-28. Here Paul talks about how people have turned away from the Creator God and begun to worship instead false gods of their own making. He says,

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."


--

It isnt about tolerance. Its about FORGIVENESS. Forgiveness is 'go and sin no more'. Not 'Do as thou wilt'.

The God of the OT was 'intolerant'. He is the same today, tomorrow, forever. The only thing that changed was that Christ became the intercessor, took the punishment for those who repent. The punishments are still dealt, but to Christ rather than to man.

Did you even read his post? Because he refuted all, or most, of that.

Ceannairceach wrote:

Draconian Races wrote:

There are six places in the Bible—three in the Old Testament and three in the New Testament—where this issue is directly addressed—not to mention all the passages dealing with marriage and sexuality which have implications for this issue. In all six of these passages homosexual acts are unequivocally condemned.

In Leviticus 18.22 it says that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as with a woman. In Lev. 20.13 the death penalty is prescribed in Israel for such an act, along with adultery, incest, and bestiality. Now sometimes homosexual advocates make light of these prohibitions by comparing them to prohibitions in the Old Testament against having contact with unclean animals like pigs. Just as Christians today don’t obey all of the Old Testament ceremonial laws, so, they say, we don’t have to obey the prohibitions of homosexual actions. But the problem with this argument is that the New Testament reaffirms the validity of the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexual behavior, as we’ll see below. This shows they were not just part of the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament, which were done away with, but were part of God’s everlasting moral law. Homosexual behavior is in God’s sight a serious sin. The third place where homosexual acts are mentioned in the Old Testament is the horrifying story in Genesis 19 of the attempted gang rape of Lot’s visitors by the men of Sodom, from which our word sodomy derives. God destroyed the city of Sodom because of their wickedness.

Now if this weren’t enough, the New Testament also forbids homosexual behavior. In I Cor. 6.9-10 Paul writes, “ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral,nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” The words in the list translated “men who practice homosexuality” refer in Greek literature to the passive and the active partners in male homosexual intercourse. (As I said, the Bible is very realistic!) The second of these two words is also listed in I Tim. 1.10 along with fornicators, slave traders, liars, and murderers as “contrary to the sound teaching of the Gospel.” The most lengthy treatment of homosexual activity comes in Romans 1.24-28. Here Paul talks about how people have turned away from the Creator God and begun to worship instead false gods of their own making. He says,

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."


--

It isnt about tolerance. Its about FORGIVENESS. Forgiveness is 'go and sin no more'. Not 'Do as thou wilt'.

The God of the OT was 'intolerant'. He is the same today, tomorrow, forever. The only thing that changed was that Christ became the intercessor, took the punishment for those who repent. The punishments are still dealt, but to Christ rather than to man.

Did you even read his post? Because he refuted all, or most, of that.

I did read it. It wasnt part of the Old Covenant.. it was part of the Governmental/Moral laws. Same as "Thou shalt not commit murder"

And I actually think the NIV is a fairly ANTI Christian bible...

Romans 1:24-27 (King James Version)

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

--
Paul was going against popular culture at the time by saying it was wrong. I dont think that it started being right just because homosexuality stopped being accepted at times.

Edit:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (King James Version)

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Draconian Races wrote:

-St George wrote:You are wrong. Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality is condemned, and only Leviticus condemns homosexuality (if only be calling it dirty). But guess what? Leviticus is a book of rules for Jewish priests. Guess what no. 2? Leviticus is apart of the Old Covenant, which hasn't been relevant since the Third Century AD when the New Covenant was formed.

Does Paul ever condemn homosexuality? No he doesn't. In Romans he criticised a group of heterosexual Christians who left the church and took part, firstly, in heterosexual orgies, moving onto homosexuality. Paul criticised it for being unnatural for them, before going on to say that God made them, or led them, to become homosexuals.

In Corinthians, Paul never talks about homosexuals. It is only through intentional mistranslations that the New international Version, the New American Standard version and several others have completely changed the meaning of the verse. The NIV, NASB, etc, rewrote the entire fucking verse to make it read as a condemnation of homosexuality. Arsenokoitai does not mean homosexuals. It is an invented word, by Paul, that no one knows the meaning of.

You need to educate yourself on the Bible, mainly its key fucking message, that of tolerance.

There are six places in the Bible—three in the Old Testament and three in the New Testament—where this issue is directly addressed—not to mention all the passages dealing with marriage and sexuality which have implications for this issue. In all six of these passages homosexual acts are unequivocally condemned.

In Leviticus 18.22 it says that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as with a woman. In Lev. 20.13 the death penalty is prescribed in Israel for such an act, along with adultery, incest, and bestiality. Now sometimes homosexual advocates make light of these prohibitions by comparing them to prohibitions in the Old Testament against having contact with unclean animals like pigs. Just as Christians today don’t obey all of the Old Testament ceremonial laws, so, they say, we don’t have to obey the prohibitions of homosexual actions. But the problem with this argument is that the New Testament reaffirms the validity of the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexual behavior, as we’ll see below. This shows they were not just part of the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament, which were done away with, but were part of God’s everlasting moral law. Homosexual behavior is in God’s sight a serious sin. The third place where homosexual acts are mentioned in the Old Testament is the horrifying story in Genesis 19 of the attempted gang rape of Lot’s visitors by the men of Sodom, from which our word sodomy derives. God destroyed the city of Sodom because of their wickedness.

Now if this weren’t enough, the New Testament also forbids homosexual behavior. In I Cor. 6.9-10 Paul writes, “ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral,nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” The words in the list translated “men who practice homosexuality” refer in Greek literature to the passive and the active partners in male homosexual intercourse. (As I said, the Bible is very realistic!) The second of these two words is also listed in I Tim. 1.10 along with fornicators, slave traders, liars, and murderers as “contrary to the sound teaching of the Gospel.” The most lengthy treatment of homosexual activity comes in Romans 1.24-28. Here Paul talks about how people have turned away from the Creator God and begun to worship instead false gods of their own making. He says,

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."


--

It isnt about tolerance. Its about FORGIVENESS. Forgiveness is 'go and sin no more'. Not 'Do as thou wilt'.

The God of the OT was 'intolerant'. He is the same today, tomorrow, forever. The only thing that changed was that Christ became the intercessor, took the punishment for those who repent. The punishments are still dealt, but to Christ rather than to man.

Right...The Bible also states Noah was around 500years old when he started building his famed arc, he was nearly 600 when he entered it...So it took a 500yo man 100 years to build an arc the size of a city and gather up two of every animal on the planet. Forgive me if I don't consider the bible a great wealth of information.

Not to mention everything you quote is a matter of translation and interpretation in regards to societal norms on the times in which the Bible was actually relevant.
Here is a fun little site for people: http://listverse.com/2008/01/31/top-10- ... cal-tales/ Most bizarre tales/morals of the Bible.

Draconian Races wrote:1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (King James Version)

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Oh no, women won't get into heaven!? What an ass, your god is.

Ceannairceach wrote:Oh no, women won't get into heaven!? What an ass, your god is.

They will. Men who make themselves like women (brings to mind some homosexuals Ive met IRL) wont.

Actually, just a thought and off-topic, does that mean Metrosexuals wont get into heaven O.o Ive never thought Metros were sinning by being metro. Thatd be good to look into

Draconian Races wrote:

Ceannairceach wrote:Oh no, women won't get into heaven!? What an ass, your god is.

They will. Men who make themselves like women (brings to mind some homosexuals Ive met IRL) wont.

Actually, just a thought and off-topic, does that mean Metrosexuals wont get into heaven O.o Ive never thought Metros were sinning by being metro. Thatd be good to look into

Ah, so bears won't be blocked? Good to know; those hairy bastards are far from effeminate. This said, are women not effeminate? If yes, then they aren't going to heaven.