NationStates

Galloism wrote:Trump surprised at Comey backlash.

I was going to make a smart ass remark at this, but I got nothing left.

It makes sense when you remember that Trump puts instant gratification before long term thinking, and that petty vendettas and settling the score with those who have bruised his ego is one of his top priorities.

So he probably assumes everyone else thinks the same way, and therefore since Democrats were angry at Comey he expected them to celebrate the firing and praise him for doing it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39918407

Lawmakers press Trump to hand over any tapes

Lady Scylla wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39918407

Lawmakers press Trump to hand over any tapes

I have the distinct feeling they don't exist.

Corrian wrote:

Galloism wrote:Trump surprised at Comey backlash.

I was going to make a smart ass remark at this, but I got nothing left.

Is there anything our clueless President ISN'T surprised by?

Women coming out with harassment allegations?

AiliAiliA wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:maybe we understand it more than you do.

when "cesarean section" becomes are pre-existing condition we know that we have an upwards of 1/3 cesarean rate and that in the past pre-existing conditions lead to higher rates, denial of coverage or revocation of coverage.

Apparently I don't understand it properly either.

1. Obamacare stops insurers charging more (or denying coverage) for people with certain pre-existing conditions
2. If having had a caesarian section is listed as a pre-existing condition, then insurers can't charge more if they know about it, or deny coverage because they know about it.

What did I get wrong about that?

there are NO pre-existing conditions under Obamacare.

what you got wrong is that I wasn't discussing Obamacare but the reports on the republican replacement plan.

Ism wrote:

Gauthier wrote:The Republicans want to repeal Obamacare to allow insurers to charge more or outright deny coverage for pre-existing conditions such as c-sections?

I'm not sure if the Senate will get rid of that rule though. It was pretty popular. But if they keep the rule and make certain things no longer, legally speaking, pre-existing condition, I think they would be able to discriminate based on that. I might be wrong, this isn't really a field I've much knowledge of.

we don't know what the senate might do.

worse yet we don't know what will happen should an Obamacare repeal go through since that part is only PHASE ONE. there are regulations to be written by the agency headed by the man who hates government run health care and then more legislation to come from congress to mop up whatever needs changing.

all we can do is fight against what we know

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:How does 'James Comey better hope that there are no "tapes" of our conversations' not constitute blackmail?

since its public it is intimidation of a (potential) witness.

Myrensis wrote:

Galloism wrote:Trump surprised at Comey backlash.

I was going to make a smart ass remark at this, but I got nothing left.

It makes sense when you remember that Trump puts instant gratification before long term thinking, and that petty vendettas and settling the score with those who have bruised his ego is one of his top priorities.

So he probably assumes everyone else thinks the same way, and therefore since Democrats were angry at Comey he expected them to celebrate the firing and praise him for doing it.

Oh democrats are like that, they like to settle vendettas. But Trump made a pretty fatal miscalculation, he failed to see the vendetta Democrats have against him is far, far, far worse than they have against Comey.

On one hand, you can be glad somebody you thought helped the guy you hate win is fired, or you can try to impeach or at least continue to discredit the guy who hate using the occasion.

Patridam wrote:

Myrensis wrote:
It makes sense when you remember that Trump puts instant gratification before long term thinking, and that petty vendettas and settling the score with those who have bruised his ego is one of his top priorities.

So he probably assumes everyone else thinks the same way, and therefore since Democrats were angry at Comey he expected them to celebrate the firing and praise him for doing it.

Oh democrats are like that, they like to settle vendettas. But Trump made a pretty fatal miscalculation, he failed to see the vendetta Democrats have against him is far, far, far worse than they have against Comey.

On one hand, you can be glad somebody you thought helped the guy you hate win is fired, or you can try to impeach or at least continue to discredit the guy who hate using the occasion.

or you can be shocked that the guy you hate has been dismissed by the president for personal legal reasons.

Ashmoria wrote:or you can be shocked that the guy you hate has been dismissed by the president for personal legal reasons.

Ah, haha, American politics not driven by petty vendettas and partisanship, what year is it? So naive. Democrats and the media hate everything Trump does because he's Trump, that's just the way it goes. It's difficult to tell what they'd think if it wasn't associated with Trump, butthey probably wouldn't care.

Patridam wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:or you can be shocked that the guy you hate has been dismissed by the president for personal legal reasons.

Ah, haha, American politics not driven by petty vendettas and partisanship, what year is it? So naive. Democrats and the media hate everything Trump does because he's Trump, that's just the way it goes. It's difficult to tell what they'd think if it wasn't associated with Trump, butthey probably wouldn't care.

some things are still shocking

I find it quite shocking that trump admitted it after forcing his underlings to bald-faced lie about it for 2 days. the normal political thing is to take you lie to the grave even if it has been thoroughly debunked.

Patridam wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:or you can be shocked that the guy you hate has been dismissed by the president for personal legal reasons.

Ah, haha, American politics not driven by petty vendettas and partisanship, what year is it? So naive. Democrats and the media hate everything Trump does because he's Trump, that's just the way it goes. It's difficult to tell what they'd think if it wasn't associated with Trump, butthey probably wouldn't care.

Yes vendettas and partisanship. That's why Obama totally got rid of Comey for contributing to Hillary's loss. Oh, wait, no he didn't. We don't dislike what Trump does because he's Trump, we dislike Trump because of what Trump does.

Ism wrote:We don't dislike what Trump does because he's Trump, we dislike Trump because of what Trump does.

New signature, here we come!

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:

Ism wrote:We don't dislike what Trump does because he's Trump, we dislike Trump because of what Trump does.

New signature, here we come!

On some level, I kind of don't buy it? Issues I've seen lots of people (on both sides) flip on once Trump actually did them:

-Firing of Comey (this is a big one for the Democrats, they flip flopped like crazy. Trump supporters were more consistent because they resented him not "going after" Hillary more)

-TPP (Again, I saw Democrats giving mixed reviews on Trump nixing the TPP, Trump supporters were slightly more consistent; they've always hated it and continued to)

-NAFTA (Democrats, particularly those in online circles, were all about Bernie curbstomping free trade. Trump enacts Bernie's policies and suddenly he's a moron)

Trump supporters and Democrats alike have both flip-flopped on whether or not Wikileaks is good. And a bunch of other key issues. But to pretend that the left is consistent, and rational, and observant in its hatred of Trump is equally as absurd as pretending that Trump supporters are such in their undying love of him.

Delmonte wrote:

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:New signature, here we come!

On some level, I kind of don't buy it? Issues I've seen lots of people (on both sides) flip on once Trump actually did them:

-Firing of Comey (this is a big one for the Democrats, they flip flopped like crazy. Trump supporters were more consistent because they resented him not "going after" Hillary more)

-TPP (Again, I saw Democrats giving mixed reviews on Trump nixing the TPP, Trump supporters were slightly more consistent; they've always hated it and continued to)

-NAFTA (Democrats, particularly those in online circles, were all about Bernie curbstomping free trade. Trump enacts Bernie's policies and suddenly he's a moron)

Trump supporters and Democrats alike have both flip-flopped on whether or not Wikileaks is good. And a bunch of other key issues. But to pretend that the left is consistent, and rational, and observant in its hatred of Trump is equally as absurd as pretending that Trump supporters are such in their undying love of him.

As a Democrat who supports free trade, don't just accept what some people say as party gospel or the majority view. Even if is the majority, it does not mean there is not a sizable minority opposed to it. And again, the firing of Comey is not outrageous because Trump did it, but because of the circumstances involved.

Delmonte wrote:

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:New signature, here we come!

On some level, I kind of don't buy it? Issues I've seen lots of people (on both sides) flip on once Trump actually did them:

-Firing of Comey (this is a big one for the Democrats, they flip flopped like crazy. Trump supporters were more consistent because they resented him not "going after" Hillary more)

-TPP (Again, I saw Democrats giving mixed reviews on Trump nixing the TPP, Trump supporters were slightly more consistent; they've always hated it and continued to)

-NAFTA (Democrats, particularly those in online circles, were all about Bernie curbstomping free trade. Trump enacts Bernie's policies and suddenly he's a moron)

Trump supporters and Democrats alike have both flip-flopped on whether or not Wikileaks is good. And a bunch of other key issues. But to pretend that the left is consistent, and rational, and observant in its hatred of Trump is equally as absurd as pretending that Trump supporters are such in their undying love of him.

Comey firing: The issue is that he did it for the wrong reasons, as evidenced by the timing and Trump's own remarks about this.

TPP: Nationalistic reasons =/= support-the-middle-class reasons. Your stated reasons to scrap it are a clue as to what you'll use to replace it.

NAFTA: See above.

Wikileaks I'll grant I supported in my naivete back when they were leaking info on civilian casualties. It made them look like heroes. I should've been more skeptical of their motives. But even then, it was less of a partisan thing and more of a "fight the power" thing. Obama didn't exactly grant Private Manning a Presidential pardon either; wouldn't even commute the sentence until after the 2016 election.

Ism wrote:

Delmonte wrote:
On some level, I kind of don't buy it? Issues I've seen lots of people (on both sides) flip on once Trump actually did them:

-Firing of Comey (this is a big one for the Democrats, they flip flopped like crazy. Trump supporters were more consistent because they resented him not "going after" Hillary more)

-TPP (Again, I saw Democrats giving mixed reviews on Trump nixing the TPP, Trump supporters were slightly more consistent; they've always hated it and continued to)

-NAFTA (Democrats, particularly those in online circles, were all about Bernie curbstomping free trade. Trump enacts Bernie's policies and suddenly he's a moron)

Trump supporters and Democrats alike have both flip-flopped on whether or not Wikileaks is good. And a bunch of other key issues. But to pretend that the left is consistent, and rational, and observant in its hatred of Trump is equally as absurd as pretending that Trump supporters are such in their undying love of him.

As a Democrat who supports free trade, don't just accept what some people say as party gospel or the majority view.

I get that, but there are prominent Democrats who railed against TPP then started murmurings about "Oh, well Trump has to do something to counterbalance China, it's shocking he's not aware of that!" etc. etc. I obviously don't have a way to amalgamate all Democratic sentiment before and after. At least I haven't been shown ways of doing that. I.E. very specific polls.

And again, the firing of Comey is not outrageous because Trump did it, but because of the circumstances involved.

"The statements by the White House and Sessions cite two issues. The first is Comey’s unprofessional handling of the Hillary Clinton email investigation, where he first decided not to prosecute her over the mishandling of classified information and then subsequently revealed to the public that the investigation had been reopened shortly before the election, possibly influencing the outcome. This is a serious matter, as Comey broke with precedent by going public with details of bureau investigations that normally are considered confidential."

I think this is a fair reason for his dismissal. One of the reasons is even a reason proffered by Democrats. Having a pending investigation into the President doesn't grant you a free pass. And it's not as though Trump fired the whole FBI or the investigative team looking into Russia, he fired the Director.

Delmonte wrote:

Ism wrote:
As a Democrat who supports free trade, don't just accept what some people say as party gospel or the majority view.

I get that, but there are prominent Democrats who railed against TPP then started murmurings about "Oh, well Trump has to do something to counterbalance China, it's shocking he's not aware of that!" etc. etc. I obviously don't have a way to amalgamate all Democratic sentiment before and after. At least I haven't been shown ways of doing that. I.E. very specific polls.

And again, the firing of Comey is not outrageous because Trump did it, but because of the circumstances involved.

"The statements by the White House and Sessions cite two issues. The first is Comey’s unprofessional handling of the Hillary Clinton email investigation, where he first decided not to prosecute her over the mishandling of classified information and then subsequently revealed to the public that the investigation had been reopened shortly before the election, possibly influencing the outcome. This is a serious matter, as Comey broke with precedent by going public with details of bureau investigations that normally are considered confidential."

I think this is a fair reason for his dismissal. One of the reasons is even a reason proffered by Democrats. Having a pending investigation into the President doesn't grant you a free pass. And it's not as though Trump fired the whole FBI or the investigative team looking into Russia, he fired the Director.

Except Trump has been very clear that was not the case. He didn't care what the reccomandation was, he'd made his decision.

EDIT: Also, Trump was very supportive of Comey and his actions in the past, so that's not an acceptable excuse now.

Ism wrote:

Delmonte wrote:
I get that, but there are prominent Democrats who railed against TPP then started murmurings about "Oh, well Trump has to do something to counterbalance China, it's shocking he's not aware of that!" etc. etc. I obviously don't have a way to amalgamate all Democratic sentiment before and after. At least I haven't been shown ways of doing that. I.E. very specific polls.



"The statements by the White House and Sessions cite two issues. The first is Comey’s unprofessional handling of the Hillary Clinton email investigation, where he first decided not to prosecute her over the mishandling of classified information and then subsequently revealed to the public that the investigation had been reopened shortly before the election, possibly influencing the outcome. This is a serious matter, as Comey broke with precedent by going public with details of bureau investigations that normally are considered confidential."

I think this is a fair reason for his dismissal. One of the reasons is even a reason proffered by Democrats. Having a pending investigation into the President doesn't grant you a free pass. And it's not as though Trump fired the whole FBI or the investigative team looking into Russia, he fired the Director.

Except Trump has been very clear that was not the case. He didn't care what the reccomandation was, he'd made his decision.

I don't understand. You'll have to explain.

EDIT: Also, Trump was very supportive of Comey and his actions in the past, so that's not an acceptable excuse now.

Not pursuing an investigation was decried by Trump and his supporters. Presumably he tacked on the second reason, cited by Democrats, to make Democrats look like morons when they inevitably raged against his decision. Which, yaknow, mission complete.

Delmonte wrote:

Ism wrote:
Except Trump has been very clear that was not the case. He didn't care what the reccomandation was, he'd made his decision.

I don't understand. You'll have to explain.

EDIT: Also, Trump was very supportive of Comey and his actions in the past, so that's not an acceptable excuse now.

Not pursuing an investigation was decried by Trump and his supporters.

For the first part, Trump have an interview and said he made the decision to fire Comey before the reccomandation was made, and treated the recommendation as irrelevant. For the second, Comey announced the renewed investigation shortly before the election, which Trump sung praises about. And the original stated cause for the firing was Comey mistreating Clinton, not failing to reccomend she be prosecuted or anything like that.

Ism wrote:

Delmonte wrote:
I don't understand. You'll have to explain.



Not pursuing an investigation was decried by Trump and his supporters.

For the first part, Trump have an interview and said he made the decision to fire Comey before the reccomandation was made, and treated the recommendation as irrelevant. For the second, Comey announced the renewed investigation shortly before the election, which Trump sung praises about. And the original stated cause for the firing was Comey mistreating Clinton, not failing to reccomend she be prosecuted or anything like that.

Both the AG letter and Trump's letter listed both reasons. I think both are valid reasons. And to your point, would it have been better to give Comey a pass because he renewed the investigation? Wouldn't that have been worse?

Delmonte wrote:

Ism wrote:
For the first part, Trump have an interview and said he made the decision to fire Comey before the reccomandation was made, and treated the recommendation as irrelevant. For the second, Comey announced the renewed investigation shortly before the election, which Trump sung praises about. And the original stated cause for the firing was Comey mistreating Clinton, not failing to reccomend she be prosecuted or anything like that.

Both the AG letter and Trump's letter listed both reasons. I think both are valid reasons. And to your point, would it have been better to give Comey a pass because he renewed the investigation? Wouldn't that have been worse?

I never saw Comey being fired as necessary, it would only look bad for whoever did it,so I don't think he needed a pass. Trump's letter was contradicted by Trump himself, and I would trust what he says over what he wrote as being more a legitimate view of his. As for the renewal, I'm saying it was hyporctisal to praise Comey and say he was doing a good job, and then fire him for doing a bad job due to an event from before you praised him, which was known of at the time of the praising. It's not like he found out something about Comey which led to this, except maybe that Comey wasn't politically reliable, which is not a valid reason to fire an FBI Director.

Ism wrote:

Delmonte wrote:
Both the AG letter and Trump's letter listed both reasons. I think both are valid reasons. And to your point, would it have been better to give Comey a pass because he renewed the investigation? Wouldn't that have been worse?

As for the renewal, I'm saying it was hyporctisal to praise Comey and say he was doing a good job, and then fire him for doing a bad job due to an event from before you praised him

Agreed. But it would have been way worse to keep him on because he did you a favor during the election lol.

Delmonte wrote:

Ism wrote:
For the first part, Trump have an interview and said he made the decision to fire Comey before the reccomandation was made, and treated the recommendation as irrelevant. For the second, Comey announced the renewed investigation shortly before the election, which Trump sung praises about. And the original stated cause for the firing was Comey mistreating Clinton, not failing to reccomend she be prosecuted or anything like that.

Both the AG letter and Trump's letter listed both reasons. I think both are valid reasons. And to your point, would it have been better to give Comey a pass because he renewed the investigation? Wouldn't that have been worse?

Not according to Trump; from the horse's mouth - "I was going to fire regardless of recommendation. He made a recommendation. He’s highly respected. Very good guy, very smart guy, the Democrats like him, the Republicans like him, he made a recommendation. But regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey."

Great Nepal wrote:

Delmonte wrote:
Both the AG letter and Trump's letter listed both reasons. I think both are valid reasons. And to your point, would it have been better to give Comey a pass because he renewed the investigation? Wouldn't that have been worse?

Not according to Trump; from the horse's mouth - "I was going to fire regardless of recommendation. He made a recommendation. He’s highly respected. Very good guy, very smart guy, the Democrats like him, the Republicans like him, he made a recommendation. But regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey."

Yes, for the reasons he cited in the letter...