The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra Thread

[Laerod]

None of this addresses my arguments that it's a DEM. To put it in simple terms, you're equating "Why did Aang do that?" with "How did Aang do that?" despite them being two distinct things.

I think you failed to read the whole thing, particularly my last paragraph. The concept of magical creatures has been foreshadowed and established throughout the series, and as such the lion turtle is not contrived or unexpected.

I didn't fail to read it. Here's the argumentative things you wrote (I snipped out the one-liners):

Actually, no. The theme of shaping one's own destiny and doing what one thinks is right even if all the odds are against him had been a theme of the series since 114.

...

That's the entire point of the finale. All of the past avatars were urging him to kill Ozai, but he knew it was wrong and he took control of his own destiny. Theme of the entire show right there. Now granted, the lion turtle was hinted at a little more subtly than it could have been, but that doesn't change the fact that the theme still fits and it was in no way contrived or unexpected.

You've argued primarily that there's a theme and that this disproves a deus ex machina, and that's plain wrong. A deus ex machina presents an apparently insurmountable conflict. Aang's inner conflict, the "theme" you keep mentioning, between killing Ozai or letting him burn the Earth Kingdom to the ground is exactly that. Aang is faced with a dilemma and can see no third option. So when you say that "Actually, no. There's this theme..." (and this is the crux of your argument), you utterly miss the point.

Your very minor secondary argument, where you concede that "...the lion turtle was hinted at a little more subtly than it could have been,...", is, contrary to your assertion, the only thing that would change this into not being a deus ex machina. But it doesn't. You say that it's not particularly well hinted at? Lion turtles might receive statues, be drawn somewhere, and get mentioned in passing, but nowhere is what they are or what they can do elaborated on. Similarly, being simply informed of their existence is fairly irrelevant as well. Take two other examples of deus ex machinas: In Lord of the Flies, the insurmountable conflict (Ralph trying not to get killed by the other boys) is ended by the intervention of a passing ship, while in Tartuffe, the eponymous villain is only prevented from evicting the protagonists out of their own house by a timely intervention by an unnamed king (Louis XIV). In the former, we're aware that there's a war going on and thus there'll be ships out in the ocean. A ship seeing the smoke from the fires is a plausible resolution. And yet it's a deus ex machina because the resolution is still unexpected and external. In Tartuffe it's even more blatant (though this would be partly because the author needed to ingratiate himself with the monarch): We're obviously aware there's a king given the setting, but his power to see that injustice is occurring border on omniscience.

So merely establishing the existence of lion turtles (which doesn't really happen until the third last episode) doesn't really prevent a deus ex machina. The lion turtle shows up in Sozin's Comet part 1 out of nowhere, isn't revealed until the episode after, provides Aang with some sage advice, and touches him with its claws. The lion turtle swoops in and grants Aang the power he needs to resolve his conflict, which he in turn doesn't remember until the exact moment he needs it. An unprecedented outside intervention gives him an unprecedented power as the plot demands that solves his insurmountable problem.

It's a deus ex machina.

[Ameriganastan]

I was wondering when she's draw this!

Vaatu's reaction cracked me up.

[Reploid Productions]

I was wondering when she's draw this!

Vaatu's reaction cracked me up.

Yeah, apparently not even the most batshit demented stuff fandom can come up with can faze Mr. Embodiment of Chaos and Bad Shit there.

[New haven america]

I was wondering when she's draw this!

Verrik's a genius.

[United States of Natan]

I think you failed to read the whole thing, particularly my last paragraph. The concept of magical creatures has been foreshadowed and established throughout the series, and as such the lion turtle is not contrived or unexpected.

I didn't fail to read it. Here's the argumentative things you wrote (I snipped out the one-liners):

Actually, no. The theme of shaping one's own destiny and doing what one thinks is right even if all the odds are against him had been a theme of the series since 114.

...

That's the entire point of the finale. All of the past avatars were urging him to kill Ozai, but he knew it was wrong and he took control of his own destiny. Theme of the entire show right there. Now granted, the lion turtle was hinted at a little more subtly than it could have been, but that doesn't change the fact that the theme still fits and it was in no way contrived or unexpected.

You've argued primarily that there's a theme and that this disproves a deus ex machina, and that's plain wrong. A deus ex machina presents an apparently insurmountable conflict. Aang's inner conflict, the "theme" you keep mentioning, between killing Ozai or letting him burn the Earth Kingdom to the ground is exactly that. Aang is faced with a dilemma and can see no third option. So when you say that "Actually, no. There's this theme..." (and this is the crux of your argument), you utterly miss the point.

Your very minor secondary argument, where you concede that "...the lion turtle was hinted at a little more subtly than it could have been,...", is, contrary to your assertion, the only thing that would change this into not being a deus ex machina. But it doesn't. You say that it's not particularly well hinted at? Lion turtles might receive statues, be drawn somewhere, and get mentioned in passing, but nowhere is what they are or what they can do elaborated on. Similarly, being simply informed of their existence is fairly irrelevant as well. Take two other examples of deus ex machinas: In Lord of the Flies, the insurmountable conflict (Ralph trying not to get killed by the other boys) is ended by the intervention of a passing ship, while in Tartuffe, the eponymous villain is only prevented from evicting the protagonists out of their own house by a timely intervention by an unnamed king (Louis XIV). In the former, we're aware that there's a war going on and thus there'll be ships out in the ocean. A ship seeing the smoke from the fires is a plausible resolution. And yet it's a deus ex machina because the resolution is still unexpected and external. In Tartuffe it's even more blatant (though this would be partly because the author needed to ingratiate himself with the monarch): We're obviously aware there's a king given the setting, but his power to see that injustice is occurring border on omniscience.

So merely establishing the existence of lion turtles (which doesn't really happen until the third last episode) doesn't really prevent a deus ex machina. The lion turtle shows up in Sozin's Comet part 1 out of nowhere, isn't revealed until the episode after, provides Aang with some sage advice, and touches him with its claws. The lion turtle swoops in and grants Aang the power he needs to resolve his conflict, which he in turn doesn't remember until the exact moment he needs it. An unprecedented outside intervention gives him an unprecedented power as the plot demands that solves his insurmountable problem.

It's a deus ex machina.

Oh, that's right, I just remembered, Lion Turtles were mentioned back in Book 2, Episode 10, "The Library".

[Shemiki]

I didn't fail to read it. Here's the argumentative things you wrote (I snipped out the one-liners):

You've argued primarily that there's a theme and that this disproves a deus ex machina, and that's plain wrong. A deus ex machina presents an apparently insurmountable conflict. Aang's inner conflict, the "theme" you keep mentioning, between killing Ozai or letting him burn the Earth Kingdom to the ground is exactly that. Aang is faced with a dilemma and can see no third option. So when you say that "Actually, no. There's this theme..." (and this is the crux of your argument), you utterly miss the point.

Your very minor secondary argument, where you concede that "...the lion turtle was hinted at a little more subtly than it could have been,...", is, contrary to your assertion, the only thing that would change this into not being a deus ex machina. But it doesn't. You say that it's not particularly well hinted at? Lion turtles might receive statues, be drawn somewhere, and get mentioned in passing, but nowhere is what they are or what they can do elaborated on. Similarly, being simply informed of their existence is fairly irrelevant as well. Take two other examples of deus ex machinas: In Lord of the Flies, the insurmountable conflict (Ralph trying not to get killed by the other boys) is ended by the intervention of a passing ship, while in Tartuffe, the eponymous villain is only prevented from evicting the protagonists out of their own house by a timely intervention by an unnamed king (Louis XIV). In the former, we're aware that there's a war going on and thus there'll be ships out in the ocean. A ship seeing the smoke from the fires is a plausible resolution. And yet it's a deus ex machina because the resolution is still unexpected and external. In Tartuffe it's even more blatant (though this would be partly because the author needed to ingratiate himself with the monarch): We're obviously aware there's a king given the setting, but his power to see that injustice is occurring border on omniscience.

So merely establishing the existence of lion turtles (which doesn't really happen until the third last episode) doesn't really prevent a deus ex machina. The lion turtle shows up in Sozin's Comet part 1 out of nowhere, isn't revealed until the episode after, provides Aang with some sage advice, and touches him with its claws. The lion turtle swoops in and grants Aang the power he needs to resolve his conflict, which he in turn doesn't remember until the exact moment he needs it. An unprecedented outside intervention gives him an unprecedented power as the plot demands that solves his insurmountable problem.

It's a deus ex machina.

Oh, that's right, I just remembered, Lion Turtles were mentioned back in Book 2, Episode 10, "The Library".

It occurs to me that this may be a difficult topic to argue, as what qualifies as enough elaboration and foreshadowing to prevent a deus ex machina from one viewer may not be enough for another.

As Natan has pointed out, the lion turtle has been foreshadowed subtly not just in the final episodes, but throughout the series. His appearance in "The Library" in a tomb of knowledge could be considered foreshadowing that the lion turtle possesses the knowledge it would later bestow on Aang.

It all comes down to whether one considers the foreshadowing provided in the series enough to justify the lion turtle's appearance in the finale. Me personally? Yes. I feel that it was shown enough beforehand to not be coming completely out of left field or be completely contrived.

Before I continue, I'm not saying that the finale isn't deus ex machina-esque. It certainly did arrive very late and near the end, and I believe the reason so many people consider it a deus ex machina is that it did come on very fast. I'm not saying it's perfect or not unlike a deus ex machina, I'm just saying it's not a full deus ex machina.

Deus ex machina ... is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.

The reasons I feel the ATLA finale doesn't fall under that definition is because a) the intervening character has been foreshadowed (sufficiently, in my eyes) throughout the series and isn't new, and b) it is not unexpected or contrived because it has been established that Aang will go out of his way to find a method not to go against his teachings as a monk (this is what I was getting at earlier with my "theme" argument) and the lion turtle was the only previously established thing that was available to him.

Again, I'm by no means saying it's a perfect finale, it's certainly deus ex machina-esque and I certainly can see why people consider it a deus ex machina.

Hope I wasn't too rambly or all-over-the-place with this, and I certainly hope it makes sense

[The Flood]

Why ? Aang was about a 100 when he started dating the teen Katara.

Chronologically 100.

Firelord Sozin was about 80 when he fathered Azulon.

[Ameriganastan]

Chronologically 100.

Firelord Sozin was about 80 when he fathered Azulon.

...Seriously? Ew.

[The IASM]

Firelord Sozin was about 80 when he fathered Azulon.

...Seriously? Ew.

That is more impressive than anything...

[Laerod]

It occurs to me that this may be a difficult topic to argue, as what qualifies as enough elaboration and foreshadowing to prevent a deus ex machina from one viewer may not be enough for another.

As Natan has pointed out, the lion turtle has been foreshadowed subtly not just in the final episodes, but throughout the series. His appearance in "The Library" in a tomb of knowledge could be considered foreshadowing that the lion turtle possesses the knowledge it would later bestow on Aang.

It all comes down to whether one considers the foreshadowing provided in the series enough to justify the lion turtle's appearance in the finale. Me personally? Yes. I feel that it was shown enough beforehand to not be coming completely out of left field or be completely contrived.

Before I continue, I'm not saying that the finale isn't deus ex machina-esque. It certainly did arrive very late and near the end, and I believe the reason so many people consider it a deus ex machina is that it did come on very fast. I'm not saying it's perfect or not unlike a deus ex machina, I'm just saying it's not a full deus ex machina.

Deus ex machina ... is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.

The reasons I feel the ATLA finale doesn't fall under that definition is because a) the intervening character has been foreshadowed (sufficiently, in my eyes) throughout the series and isn't new, and b) it is not unexpected or contrived because it has been established that Aang will go out of his way to find a method not to go against his teachings as a monk (this is what I was getting at earlier with my "theme" argument) and the lion turtle was the only previously established thing that was available to him.

Again, I'm by no means saying it's a perfect finale, it's certainly deus ex machina-esque and I certainly can see why people consider it a deus ex machina.

Hope I wasn't too rambly or all-over-the-place with this, and I certainly hope it makes sense :)

Yeah it is difficult to argue. I generally disagree with your point a): As I described in my previous post, even if the character is sufficiently foreshadowed (and I don't think "Hey! Look at these lion turtle thingies!" counts), us being aware of the possibility of an unexpected intervention doesn't mean that it isn't contrived or unexpected. Compare the appearance of the lion turtle to the appearance of dragons. The latter were sought out and then intervened under conditions that were neither contrived nor unexpected, and the abilities they imparted were abilities we knew they were the masters of. Lion turtles, on the other hand, are a complete mystery, and as such were never established as being "another option" or even extant.

What you argue in b) has no relevance to your point, as I've been trying to tell you over and over again. It's essentially saying "it can't be a deus ex machina because there's a seemingly unsolvable problem". Yes. Aang is trying to find his own way. And he can't. This is the conflict, the insurmountable problem. It is not foreshadowing. As such, what you've argued disproves a deus ex machina is actually its foundation.

And even if all of that were given, Aang suddenly remembering the sage wisdom of the lion turtle as he's beaten Ozai but can't think of a way to remove him as a threat would still fall under "a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new ability." Energybending is a "power as the plot demands" with no foreshadowing whatsoever that it would even be possible.

It's not a bad example of a deus ex machina, but it is what it is.

[United States of Natan]

Oh, that's right, I just remembered, Lion Turtles were mentioned back in Book 2, Episode 10, "The Library".

It occurs to me that this may be a difficult topic to argue, as what qualifies as enough elaboration and foreshadowing to prevent a deus ex machina from one viewer may not be enough for another.

As Natan has pointed out, the lion turtle has been foreshadowed subtly not just in the final episodes, but throughout the series. His appearance in "The Library" in a tomb of knowledge could be considered foreshadowing that the lion turtle possesses the knowledge it would later bestow on Aang.

It all comes down to whether one considers the foreshadowing provided in the series enough to justify the lion turtle's appearance in the finale. Me personally? Yes. I feel that it was shown enough beforehand to not be coming completely out of left field or be completely contrived.

Before I continue, I'm not saying that the finale isn't deus ex machina-esque. It certainly did arrive very late and near the end, and I believe the reason so many people consider it a deus ex machina is that it did come on very fast. I'm not saying it's perfect or not unlike a deus ex machina, I'm just saying it's not a full deus ex machina.

Deus ex machina ... is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.

The reasons I feel the ATLA finale doesn't fall under that definition is because a) the intervening character has been foreshadowed (sufficiently, in my eyes) throughout the series and isn't new, and b) it is not unexpected or contrived because it has been established that Aang will go out of his way to find a method not to go against his teachings as a monk (this is what I was getting at earlier with my "theme" argument) and the lion turtle was the only previously established thing that was available to him.

Again, I'm by no means saying it's a perfect finale, it's certainly deus ex machina-esque and I certainly can see why people consider it a deus ex machina.

Hope I wasn't too rambly or all-over-the-place with this, and I certainly hope it makes sense

I think sometimes, an event may be ambiguous when it comes to dues ex machinas. It could be one from the perspective of someone, while someone else thinks there is enough context to explain it. Also, according the wiki, there is numerous references throughout the series: http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Lion_Turtle#Trivia

[Ameriganastan]

Watching another retarded top 10 list from WatchMojo.
They get to Aang.
Pronounce it as "Ong".

...God, I hate those people.

[Edward Richtofen]

Watching another retarded top 10 list from WatchMojo.
They get to Aang.
Pronounce it as "Ong".

...God, I hate those people.

They ride ozzy's sack like no tomorrow.

[New haven america]

Watching another retarded top 10 list from WatchMojo.
They get to Aang.
Pronounce it as "Ong".

...God, I hate those people.

Which list?

Eh they're idiot's, but watching them fail is good(Though pronouncing it as "Ong", they will never be forgiven).

[Blasveck]

After doing a bit of research, I'm beginning to feel that Korra as a whole story really is a Heroine's Journey.

(Not a Hero's Journey, mind, for both are distinct concepts on their own, not just a gender difference. It is better explained here: http://flutiebear.tumblr.com/post/22840 ... overlooked

Especially if you replace Hawke or otherwise with Korra)

[Shemiki]

@Laerod To be honest, I mostly agreed with you in this paragraph. Like I said, the ATLA finale is certainly deus ex machina-esque; to me it seems that it can't be considered a full deus ex machina because the lion turtle was previously established at all. Given the amount of times it had been previously shown throughout the series, as Natan has shown, it's clear that the writers were planning for it; they weren't writing the finale and suddenly realizing "oh shit, we need a way for him to bring down Ozai without killing him;" they were very clearly planning this from early on. Again, not saying it's unlike a deus ex machina, just saying that it isn't an all-the-way deus ex machina.

To be honest, you kind of addressed this in the above point. It was less that it's an insurmountable problem than it is that a solution was found. And that made no sense. Sorry

Meh...in a show about bending the elements and where various new abilities are introduced all the time (healing, lightningbending, etc.), the idea of bending at it's most basic form just seemed to be a natural extension from those and perfectly appropriate. I don't think I ever really questioned it.

[United States of Natan]

@Laerod To be honest, I mostly agreed with you in this paragraph. Like I said, the ATLA finale is certainly deus ex machina-esque; to me it seems that it can't be considered a full deus ex machina because the lion turtle was previously established at all. Given the amount of times it had been previously shown throughout the series, as Natan has shown, it's clear that the writers were planning for it; they weren't writing the finale and suddenly realizing "oh shit, we need a way for him to bring down Ozai without killing him;" they were very clearly planning this from early on. Again, not saying it's unlike a deus ex machina, just saying that it isn't an all-the-way deus ex machina.

To be honest, you kind of addressed this in the above point. It was less that it's an insurmountable problem than it is that a solution was found. And that made no sense. Sorry

Meh...in a show about bending the elements and where various new abilities are introduced all the time (healing, lightningbending, etc.), the idea of bending at it's most basic form just seemed to be a natural extension from those and perfectly appropriate. I don't think I ever really questioned it.

Yes, I always felt the ending fit as well. In addition, if I recall, I think I remember reading that the creators were planning it from the beginning,

[Rhodevus]

@Laerod To be honest, I mostly agreed with you in this paragraph. Like I said, the ATLA finale is certainly deus ex machina-esque; to me it seems that it can't be considered a full deus ex machina because the lion turtle was previously established at all. Given the amount of times it had been previously shown throughout the series, as Natan has shown, it's clear that the writers were planning for it; they weren't writing the finale and suddenly realizing "oh shit, we need a way for him to bring down Ozai without killing him;" they were very clearly planning this from early on. Again, not saying it's unlike a deus ex machina, just saying that it isn't an all-the-way deus ex machina.

To be honest, you kind of addressed this in the above point. It was less that it's an insurmountable problem than it is that a solution was found. And that made no sense. Sorry

Meh...in a show about bending the elements and where various new abilities are introduced all the time (healing, lightningbending, etc.), the idea of bending at it's most basic form just seemed to be a natural extension from those and perfectly appropriate. I don't think I ever really questioned it.

Yes, I always felt the ending fit as well. In addition, if I recall, I think I remember reading that the creators were planning it from the beginning,

It seems likely that they would plan it from the beginning...

[Laerod]

@Laerod To be honest, I mostly agreed with you in this paragraph. Like I said, the ATLA finale is certainly deus ex machina-esque; to me it seems that it can't be considered a full deus ex machina because the lion turtle was previously established at all. Given the amount of times it had been previously shown throughout the series, as Natan has shown, it's clear that the writers were planning for it; they weren't writing the finale and suddenly realizing "oh shit, we need a way for him to bring down Ozai without killing him;" they were very clearly planning this from early on. Again, not saying it's unlike a deus ex machina, just saying that it isn't an all-the-way deus ex machina.

To be honest, you kind of addressed this in the above point. It was less that it's an insurmountable problem than it is that a solution was found. And that made no sense. Sorry :(

Meh...in a show about bending the elements and where various new abilities are introduced all the time (healing, lightningbending, etc.), the idea of bending at it's most basic form just seemed to be a natural extension from those and perfectly appropriate. I don't think I ever really questioned it.

Basically. To keep it suspenseful, Bryke used something that had no meaningful foreshadowing. It works better than a lot of instances because it's spread out over three to four episodes. I personally liked the ending, but I also recognize that that won't change what it is. I think this sums up most of my feelings on the issue.

[Aterna]

I was wondering when she's draw this!

Verrik's a genius.

[Aterna]

Was anyone else a bit disappointed with how the Equalists were handled in terms of lack of digging in to the theme of bender vs non-benders? I thought that, after a while, they made Amon this dumb enemy, and then after the big battle near Republic City, everyone forgot about a giant terrorist attack that sunk an entire fleet of ships.

In short, I thought they mishandled what could have been a bit intellectually challenging.

[Laerod]

Was anyone else a bit disappointed with how the Equalists were handled in terms of lack of digging in to the theme of bender vs non-benders? I thought that, after a while, they made Amon this dumb enemy, and then after the big battle near Republic City, everyone forgot about a giant terrorist attack that sunk an entire fleet of ships.

In short, I thought they mishandled what could have been a bit intellectually challenging.

Yes. Having an elected president didn't feel like it would have solved anything, particularly considering how the council's bias towards benders wasn't properly addressed either.

[Shemiki]

@Laerod To be honest, I mostly agreed with you in this paragraph. Like I said, the ATLA finale is certainly deus ex machina-esque; to me it seems that it can't be considered a full deus ex machina because the lion turtle was previously established at all. Given the amount of times it had been previously shown throughout the series, as Natan has shown, it's clear that the writers were planning for it; they weren't writing the finale and suddenly realizing "oh shit, we need a way for him to bring down Ozai without killing him;" they were very clearly planning this from early on. Again, not saying it's unlike a deus ex machina, just saying that it isn't an all-the-way deus ex machina.

To be honest, you kind of addressed this in the above point. It was less that it's an insurmountable problem than it is that a solution was found. And that made no sense. Sorry

Meh...in a show about bending the elements and where various new abilities are introduced all the time (healing, lightningbending, etc.), the idea of bending at it's most basic form just seemed to be a natural extension from those and perfectly appropriate. I don't think I ever really questioned it.

Basically. To keep it suspenseful, Bryke used something that had no meaningful foreshadowing. It works better than a lot of instances because it's spread out over three to four episodes. I personally liked the ending, but I also recognize that that won't change what it is. I think this sums up most of my feelings on the issue.

Actually, that's a very interesting point in there at the end.

"Also energy bending was introduced in the 3rd to last episode of the series, and it wasn't until the last episode it was used. Given what we knew about the spirituality of bending, and that Aang was given this mystical gift, would we still be talking about energy bending as a DEM if the last four episodes didn't all air together?"

Your thoughts?

Was anyone else a bit disappointed with how the Equalists were handled in terms of lack of digging in to the theme of bender vs non-benders? I thought that, after a while, they made Amon this dumb enemy, and then after the big battle near Republic City, everyone forgot about a giant terrorist attack that sunk an entire fleet of ships.

In short, I thought they mishandled what could have been a bit intellectually challenging.

Oh yeah, totally agreeing with you there. I was actually kind of excited when it was first introduced, because I thought the split between benders and non-benders would be a very interesting topic to show and contribute greatly to Republic City's backstory. Instead, Amon turned out to me nothing much more than a bogeyman for Korra to kill. He's clearly evil and we are not sympathetic at all to his cause.

[Laerod]

Actually, that's a very interesting point in there at the end.

"Also energy bending was introduced in the 3rd to last episode of the series, and it wasn't until the last episode it was used. Given what we knew about the spirituality of bending, and that Aang was given this mystical gift, would we still be talking about energy bending as a DEM if the last four episodes didn't all air together?"

Your thoughts?

That's one part I disagree with. Energybending does not get introduced until Aang needs it, specifically in a flashback to the scene from that earlier episode right before he removes Ozai's bending.

[Ameriganastan]

Do the thing.