[discussion] pronoun silliness

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If you don't recognize transgender folk as a thing, why should you comply with preferred gender pronouns? Seems a tad bit dumb to request that, when that person is not trans-supportive in the first place. You are basically saying, I respect your position, but I don't respect your freedom of speech exercising that position, when referring to me or others like me.

Language policing for the win.

I keep seeing this from you: "FREE SPEECH!" "LANGUAGE POLICING!" "OPPRESSION!".

Look, I understand you want to call transgender women "he" and all that good shit. I get that.

However, screaming "freedom of speech" and "oppression" and "language policing" doesn't make your points look any better.

Freedom of Speech is not a license to be an asshole. People can still tell you to shut up if they don't like it. To prove my point, next time your mom tells you to shut up because of something you should go ahead and tell her "but freedom of speech mom! You're language policing me!" and see what she does.

Moderation's role in NS is to police speech because that's what is used here. You can't just say "Language policing!" when moderation actions in-forum is literally the same thing. If you think moderation doesn't already police speech then you are too late to the party. They already do. This particular rule just narrows down trolling to transgender people by not having this kind of pointless banter:

"Hey, look at him!"
"Um I am a she"
"Don't pay attention to him... Anyways, look at him!"
"I already said I am a she"
"Whoa what the fuck bro? Why you gotta hate?!"
"Don't call me bro, I am a woman"
"No you're not, you're fucking sick man. How can you think you're a woman when you got a dick?"

That right there would get someone irritated, although they'd be warned for flaming/trolling or baiting on the last sentence. So the transgender misgender rule does cut back on a lot of that.

[Amadel]

I keep seeing this from you: "FREE SPEECH!" "LANGUAGE POLICING!" "OPPRESSION!".

Look, I understand you want to call transgender women "he" and all that good shit. I get that.

Are the words in caps all that you see in my posts?

Because no, I don't want to call transgender women that way. I'd use 'she', and 'he' for transmen. They are basically men and women who have not yet transitioned or are in the process of transitioning. I did say just a post ago that I'm fine with transgender folk, those who are genuine transgenders at least. And that I don't want to pander to the rest.

As far as the gender pronouns thing, even for genuine trans folk, I was playing the devil's advocate. There are people who don't recognize transgenderism is a thing and don't like such people. To respect that position, yet require them to use the pronouns is the silliest thing I have encountered lately on these boards. You either respect their position, or you don't. I'm not talking about name-calling them, I'm talking about resistance to use the "proper" pronouns they want used on them.

Freedom of Speech is not a license to be an asshole.

Neither is diversity and inclusion codewords for conforming to something you don't want to be part of. I also don't see how I've been an asshole with my posts so far. Please refer to my assholeness so I may elaborate why something was said the way it was said. Not that I need to justify anything to you, but I'll go ahead and play ball temporarily.

People can still tell you to shut up if they don't like it.

Likewise.

To prove my point, next time your mom tells you to shut up because of something you should go ahead and tell her "but freedom of speech mom! You're language policing me!" and see what she does.

Maybe your mom does that. Mine doesn't.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I keep seeing this from you: "FREE SPEECH!" "LANGUAGE POLICING!" "OPPRESSION!".

Look, I understand you want to call transgender women "he" and all that good shit. I get that.

Are the words in caps all that you see in my posts?

Because no, I don't want to call transgender women that way. I'd use 'she', and 'he' for transmen. They are basically men and women who have not yet transition or are in the process of transitioning. I did say just a post ago that I'm fine with transgender folk, those who are genuine transgenders at least. And that I don't want to pander to the rest.

As far as the gender pronouns thing, even for genuine trans folk, I was playing the devil's advocate. There are people who don't recognize transgenderism is a thing and don't like such people. To respect that position, yet require them to use the pronouns is the silliest thing I have encountered lately on these boards. You are either respect their position, or you don't. I'm not talking about name-calling them, I'm talking about resistance to use the "proper" pronouns they want used on them.

Freedom of Speech is not a license to be an asshole.

Neither is diversity and inclusion codewords for conforming to something you don't want to be part of. I also don't see how I've been an asshole with my posts so far. Please refer to my assholeness so I may elaborate why something was said the way it was said. Not that I need to justify anything to you, but I'll go ahead and play ball temporarily.

I understand what you were trying to gain from playing the Devil's Advocate. However, your approach is silly.

Because what you said in what I quoted simply boiled down to "I don't understand why do people gotta keep language policing in a forum". It's silly because that's what moderation in a forum, a place where we use words to communicate, already does. Unmoderated forums or lightly-moderated forums where there is an implicit culture of subtle trolling and flaming doesn't deal with this. However, NS is a stricter forum. They have their own rules as to what is and what isn't acceptable, and for the most part their position has always been clear in regards of users attacking the posts, not the poster. I feel this particular rule was designed with that intention in mind.

Also, I never said you were an asshole, but in principle that's what it boils down to. Freedom of speech is not a license to be a dick. You can express your opinion without resorting to subtle trolling and flaming. I am, again, not saying that you are resorting to subtle trolling and flaming, but the fact of the matter is many people tend to do this kind of shit where they troll subtly and when they are striked down with a warning they tend to scream wolf.

[Communal Ecotopia]

You actually think this happens beyond the obviously mocking, "I identify as a ship..."?

Posting as a ship doesn't affect my preferred pronouns. The Monitor was pretty consistently referred to with female pronouns, which are the same ones I use IRL.

True. But there is a meme out there too...if I am not mistaken.

[USS Monitor]

Posting as a ship doesn't affect my preferred pronouns. The Monitor was pretty consistently referred to with female pronouns, which are the same ones I use IRL.

True. But there is a meme out there too...if I am not mistaken.

About ships?

[Communal Ecotopia]

True. But there is a meme out there too...if I am not mistaken.

About ships?

I thought so, but I'm not terribly meme-savvy. Oh, wait, no...it's helicopters.

[USS Monitor]

About ships?

I thought so, but I'm not terribly meme-savvy. Oh, wait, no...it's helicopters.

Yeah, the helicopter thing is different, and I don't recommend using it on NS because it's really easy to get smacked for trolling.

[Communal Ecotopia]

I thought so, but I'm not terribly meme-savvy. Oh, wait, no...it's helicopters.

Yeah, the helicopter thing is different, and I don't recommend using it on NS because it's really easy to get smacked for trolling.

No kidding. I was just pointing to it as an example of the only times folks who are not transgender have asked to be called by a pronoun in an obviously mocking or false way. My point was only to say that if someone asks to be called something, we should believe they're sincere in that desire.

[USS Monitor]

Yeah, the helicopter thing is different, and I don't recommend using it on NS because it's really easy to get smacked for trolling.

No kidding. I was just pointing to it as an example of the only times folks who are not transgender have asked to be called by a pronoun in an obviously mocking or false way. My point was only to say that if someone asks to be called something, we should believe they're sincere in that desire.

Right. We're on the same page now.

[Cerillium]

If you don't recognize transgender folk as a thing, why should you comply with preferred gender pronouns? Seems a tad bit dumb to request that, when that person is not trans-supportive in the first place. You are basically saying, I respect your position, but I don't respect your freedom of speech exercising that position, when referring to me or others like me.

Language policing for the win.

I keep seeing this from you: "FREE SPEECH!" "LANGUAGE POLICING!" "OPPRESSION!".

Look, I understand you want to call transgender women "he" and all that good shit. I get that.

However, screaming "freedom of speech" and "oppression" and "language policing" doesn't make your points look any better.

Freedom of Speech is not a license to be an asshole. People can still tell you to shut up if they don't like it. To prove my point, next time your mom tells you to shut up because of something you should go ahead and tell her "but freedom of speech mom! You're language policing me!" and see what she does.

Moderation's role in NS is to police speech because that's what is used here. You can't just say "Language policing!" when moderation actions in-forum is literally the same thing. If you think moderation doesn't already police speech then you are too late to the party. They already do. This particular rule just narrows down trolling to transgender people by not having this kind of pointless banter:

"Hey, look at him!"
"Um I am a she"
"Don't pay attention to him... Anyways, look at him!"
"I already said I am a she"
"Whoa what the fuck bro? Why you gotta hate?!"
"Don't call me bro, I am a woman"
"No you're not, you're fucking sick man. How can you think you're a woman when you got a dick?"

That right there would get someone irritated, although they'd be warned for flaming/trolling or baiting on the last sentence. So the transgender misgender rule does cut back on a lot of that.

The last example quote would probably earn a warn.

Conducting oneself with poise and grace when encountering minor things will help one do the same when facing real world persecution. If we let people see we have thin skin, they're going to find all sorts of ways to taunt us. Purposefully misgendering a transgender person only works if their target empowers it by reacting.

"You have a dick. You're male. I'm going to call you whatever I want, dude."
"I couldn't care less about what you do. If you can't respect me, I can't be bothered conversing with you."

Ignore the poster after that, and don't rise to further bait. Deprive the person of satisfaction. Let them spin their wheels and look foolish. You rose above it. You've won without saying another word.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The last example quote would probably earn a warn.

Conducting oneself with poise and grace when encountering minor things will help one do the same when facing real world persecution. If we let people see we have thin skin, they're going to find all sorts of ways to taunt us. Purposefully misgendering a transgender person only works if their target empowers it by reacting.

"You have a dick. You're male. I'm going to call you whatever I want, dude."
"I couldn't care less about what you do. If you can't respect me, I can't be bothered conversing with you."

Ignore the poster after that, and don't rise to further bait. Deprive the person of satisfaction. Let them spin their wheels and look foolish. You rose above it. You've won without saying another word.

Conducting yourself with poise and grace on the internet?

Are we talking about the same internet here?

In the real world, there's less of this verbal attacks and trolling, but then there's a lot more of ass kicking and baiting someone to fight them. You're being optimistic and a bit idealistic on how you are approaching this topic. With words, having a thin skin doesn't necessarily imply you are going to reply to someone, nor does having a tough skin imply that you won't.

In my years of being online, I can tell you that that whole "don't feed the troll" is counterintuitive to what actually happens. People will rise to the bait, if not the person being baited, someone else. Also, how you worded that response to the troll would get other trolls to troll the person who does it, because they'd feel you feel too good to talk to them (and that's what I would think too with that sort of response). Trolls live for a laugh, they don't care about reason. They will be rational, but not everyone who sounds rational is actually reasonable.

In my case, I find things either amusing or irritating on the internet.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If I may suggest using gender neutral pronoun then? That way, there isn't an offense. Of course, I have no issue with using the pronouns other people prefer, but maybe a neutral alternative could help in minimizing this issue.

[Esternial]

You actually think this happens beyond the obviously mocking, "I identify as a ship..."?

Posting as a ship doesn't affect my preferred pronouns. The Monitor was pretty consistently referred to with female pronouns, which are the same ones I use IRL.

Ships are often referred to with female pronouns. Not sure it was because of that or because people knew the face behind the monitor.

[Cerillium]

Conducting yourself with poise and grace on the internet?

Are we talking about the same internet here?

In the real world, there's less of this verbal attacks and trolling, but then there's a lot more of ass kicking and baiting someone to fight them. You're being optimistic and a bit idealistic on how you are approaching this topic. With words, having a thin skin doesn't necessarily imply you are going to reply to someone, nor does having a tough skin imply that you won't.

In my years of being online, I can tell you that that whole "don't feed the troll" is counterintuitive to what actually happens. People will rise to the bait, if not the person being baited, someone else. Also, how you worded that response to the troll would get other trolls to troll the person who does it, because they'd feel you feel too good to talk to them (and that's what I would think too with that sort of response). Trolls live for a laugh, they don't care about reason. They will be rational, but not everyone who sounds rational is actually reasonable.

In my case, I find things either amusing or irritating on the internet.

Poise and grace. Another way to say it: keeping self-control while maintaining self-worth.

I don't allow bigots into my living room. Why would I allow them the privilege of wasting my time online? Am I better than them? No. I'm shutting down an avenue of aggression by not responding to their disrespectful statements. I might pay attention to them again if they become more civil. This is an online solution only. It doesn't work in the real world. I never tried to say it did.

The real world isn't the internet, obviously. Trans people have it much harder in real life. The persecution is very real and rather constant. The verbal attacks are vicious. If ignored, the verbal attacks have the potential to escalate into physical harassment or harm. It seems to occur frequently on campuses. Standing there and ignoring the situation might result in becoming the victim of a physical hate crime.

[Forsher]

Aww, the poor dears.

It's exactly this attitude that makes people not want to comply with the pronoun rule. Why should they respect a transgender's opinions and preferences when that person doesn't respect theirs? The only way to maintain civil and constructive debate is when both sides have mutual respect (or at the very least reverence) for the other.

Firstly, one reveres God. One might respect God but no-one ever says this. That is, reverence is a more "extreme" kind of respect.

Secondly, what you actually mean is everyone discusses the topic respectfully. "Mutual respect" is, in my view, generally meant with/in/under the first sense. What we want to talk about, here, is the second sense (which, I would actually view as the first sense... maybe I just remember primary school a lot, lot better than most people):

Due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others.

Or, in other words, if Johnny says don't call him Jon, and Johnny also specifies you refer to him as they, so, really "refer to them" then you do so. If you keep doing otherwise, then Johnny is within rights to report you. If you are unlikely to have known this about Johnny, then you're not going to get slapped... but if they've told you, then you are only unlikely to have known if you haven't actually been reading their posts (so, really, you'll get slapped for trolling instead of baiting).

Thirdly, if you have reverence, then you're going to be dealing with the kind of philosophy familiar to the Middle Ages.

Finally, this is the sort of post that should've provoked a moderator response because, while it is entirely appropriate in an NSG thread, this is moderation and we were meant to do things differently here. The "issue" (because, clearly, moderation disagrees with me and thinks it isn't) is that it is moving away from the thread.

Yeah, maybe. Except forcing you not to call me dick instead of rick isn't forcing you to accept a specific ideological premise.

You declare yourself trans, and then force everyone to agree with it by using your preferred pronoun.

Toldja this logic was the basis for much of this thread subsequently. It's still wrong.

People shouldn't be calling anyone "honey" or "dearie" on this forum. It's condescending as fuck at the very least.

Honey, sweetheart and deary are now offenses? Equal to misgendering? Or condescending?

Er, yes... equal to misgendering I am not so sure about.

Terms of endearment are made such through tone. The tone which is generally associated with them, cute-stuff, is actually passive-aggressive or, in fact, out-right aggressive. (Note the demonstration here. Also note that I am not using it in a fashion which means that I think warning me for it would be an outrage: bad mods.)

This is where I contradict myself a bit and note that if I call you mate, I may, in fact, be openly showing my contempt for you or your actions.

Thanks for playing thread, I look forward to absolutely no change in the rules.

[Socialist Nordia]

Is using a pronoun someone asks you to too hard for you?

[Flanderlion]

Is using a pronoun someone asks you to too hard for you?

Depends. Sometimes they are trying to get you to use a pronoun to give themselves legitimacy, which some people don't want to give people who act like that. Other times it is a disagreement about the pronoun itself whether it exists. But the vast majority of cases are people not remembering/checking signatures, there is a lot of posters on NS, and most of them you don't interact with on a daily/regular basis, or even if you do, pronouns don't come up that much unless a fuss is made about them. Neutral pronouns are the way to go.

[Common Territories]

Is using a pronoun someone asks you to too hard for you?

Yes. Because people like me love to make things hard on ourselves because we have different viewpoints/beliefs on the subject. Though that's another topic in of itself so im not gonna bother joining the argument here. Im just here to tell people the same message some have already stated prior: Don't use pronouns. Period. As we've all seen lately, warnings for missgendering are being given out like fucking candy whether they're appealed successfully or not. Whether you have a sound argument on why you'll use/not use "preferred pronouns" doesn't matter; the Mods have made it clear it's here to stay and you should either "use they" or follow the rules. Personally, I don't care to get a warning myself, so the advice I've been living by for this topic is "To not pronoun anyone on NS, they are they while here, and I identify you by your name." If you want to dodge the Mod operated "Warning Candy-Van", I'd suggest you follow said advice too - because we all know Mods love to dish out candy for this kind of rule. I wont go into the topic any further, especially since I have personal feelings on the subject - my personal opinions on the subject itself are not needed nor do they matter. I wont say them regardless since doing so will likely earn me a warning just for uttering them. So I'll be keeping my mouth shut on concerning my opinions - cause I've seen people of similar opinion get warnings for expressing said opinions (funny how you can be a Nazi on this site but can't have a different viewpoint on "gender", am I right?).

[USS Monitor]

Is using a pronoun someone asks you to too hard for you?

Yes. Because people like me love to make things hard on ourselves because we have different viewpoints/beliefs on the subject. Though that's another topic in of itself so im not gonna bother joining the argument here. Im just here to tell people the same message some have already stated prior: Don't use pronouns. Period. As we've all seen lately, warnings for missgendering are being given out like fucking candy whether they're appealed successfully or not. Whether you have a sound argument on why you'll use/not use "preferred pronouns" doesn't matter; the Mods have made it clear it's here to stay and you should either "use they" or follow the rules. Personally, I don't care to get a warning myself, so the advice I've been living by for this topic is "To not pronoun anyone on NS, they are they while here, and I identify you by your name." If you want to dodge the Mod operated "Warning Candy-Van", I'd suggest you follow said advice too - because we all know Mods love to dish out candy for this kind of rule. I wont go into the topic any further, especially since I have personal feelings on the subject - my personal opinions on the subject itself are not needed nor do they matter. I wont say them regardless since doing so will likely earn me a warning just for uttering them. So I'll be keeping my mouth shut on concerning my opinions - cause I've seen people of similar opinion get warnings for expressing said opinions (funny how you can be a Nazi on this site but can't have a different viewpoint on "gender", am I right?).

If you're not into candy, we can cook you something more savory.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Is using a pronoun someone asks you to too hard for you?

Yes. Because people like me love to make things hard on ourselves because we have different viewpoints/beliefs on the subject. Though that's another topic in of itself so im not gonna bother joining the argument here. Im just here to tell people the same message some have already stated prior: Don't use pronouns. Period. As we've all seen lately, warnings for missgendering are being given out like fucking candy whether they're appealed successfully or not. Whether you have a sound argument on why you'll use/not use "preferred pronouns" doesn't matter; the Mods have made it clear it's here to stay and you should either "use they" or follow the rules. Personally, I don't care to get a warning myself, so the advice I've been living by for this topic is "To not pronoun anyone on NS, they are they while here, and I identify you by your name." If you want to dodge the Mod operated "Warning Candy-Van", I'd suggest you follow said advice too - because we all know Mods love to dish out candy for this kind of rule. I wont go into the topic any further, especially since I have personal feelings on the subject - my personal opinions on the subject itself are not needed nor do they matter. I wont say them regardless since doing so will likely earn me a warning just for uttering them. So I'll be keeping my mouth shut on concerning my opinions - cause I've seen people of similar opinion get warnings for expressing said opinions (funny how you can be a Nazi on this site but can't have a different viewpoint on "gender", am I right?).

You can have an opinion on gender that does not include transgender identity as valid, and express said opinion.

You cannot intentionally use a term other than what the person prefers when addressing them or referring to them. You may use the term "they" if there is any doubt, or you believe that using any term besides the one that refers to their biological sex would force you into a position of dishonesty with yourself and/or others.

You can be a Nazi, and see Jews as inferior.

You cannot call a Jewish person on this site inferior, or refer to them as untermenschen.

This should not be difficult.

[Grenartia]

Really? Because everywhere I look, I see the opposite. Fedora-sporting MRAs, tryharding edgelords, and trans-bashers.

What's wrong with being MRA? Isn't that and MGTOW a logical counter-symptome to the 3rd wave feminist BS?

I'm also not a trans-basher. Transgender people exist and they should be respected. I do draw the line on some bullshit. My position is that the human species is gender-binary, and that transgender people, genuine ones, engage in transition strategies to change their body to better reflect the person inside.

Anything outside the binary and gender-transition model to me is delusional fantasy. And by forcing me to play ball in "gender-neutral/agender/non-binary/genderqueer" and whole host of other 52 gender constructs recently adopted by the Facebook crowd, 31 of which are official in NY. To me this is forcing me to humor somebody's delusions as part of some personal roleplay they want everybody to participate in. Part of it is this whole charade of prefered gender pronouns. Fuck your pronouns. If I don't entertain your nutty flavor of "trans" I'm even less obliged to use your prefered gender pronouns. If you don't like it, don't engage me, it's that simple. And that's the most reasonable approach that one can adopt without resorting to be forced to engage in PC rhetoric by a moderator.

That's not trans-bashing. If I don't entertain somebody's hipsterish personal identity in a world where biological uniqueness seems to have become an olympic contest, that's not me bashing. It's me exercising my reason. Not enabling somebody's delusions of grandeur. I make a distinction between transgender and trans-wannabes. The latter hurt the reputation of the former. Most people being ignorant because of the latter will bash the former too, putting them in the same category. And I hate that. That's why I'm so vocally against it, and any other iteration of the leftist ideology, who push for acceptance of this without questioning or criticism, and by any means necessary.

Somebody's getting awfully defensive.

Also, psst, your ignorance is showing.

[Katganistan]

If I may suggest using gender neutral pronoun then? That way, there isn't an offense. Of course, I have no issue with using the pronouns other people prefer, but maybe a neutral alternative could help in minimizing this issue.

We've suggested it. Multiple times.

People still gotta be 'I'ma call 'em how I feel 'em."

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Interesting read. I'll sum up my thoughts simply - for a change.

Be who and what you want out there, believe and support anything you like - just don't be a dick when posting. Simple as.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

Question - would the rules be any different for deliberately misgenderkng a well-known transgender figure who almost certainly isn't a member of the site and thus can't be flamed? Someone like Caitlyn Jenner or Chelsea Manning? And would this also apply to calling them by their previous name (Bruce or Bradley)? Obviously the latter isn't an issue for site members since revealing their full name is doxing and probably instant DOS whether they're trans or not.

[NERVUN]

Question - would the rules be any different for deliberately misgenderkng a well-known transgender figure who almost certainly isn't a member of the site and thus can't be flamed? Someone like Caitlyn Jenner or Chelsea Manning? And would this also apply to calling them by their previous name (Bruce or Bradley)? Obviously the latter isn't an issue for site members since revealing their full name is doxing and probably instant DOS whether they're trans or not.

In The Beginning Max made the...

Er, sorry.

At the start of the rule, it was originally written to include people off forum, but that did make the rule too restrictive as well as it was pointed out that protection of the rules usually do not apply to anyone not on the forum (Meaning I can call Prime Minister Abe a baka if I so wish being fairly confident that he isn't playing NS, he's too busy crawling through green pipes). So, the simple answer to your question is no, the misgendering rule does not apply to anyone offsite, it ONLY applies to NS players.