[Discussion] - Political Nicknaming

[Imperializt Russia]

Per suggestion (and request), this is a thread to discuss what is and isn't, and should and shouldn't be, considered actionable "political nicknaming".
This is due to a discussion from the "Handicapping the Race" thread where I was exposed to the "Drumpf" nickname.
I think these four or so posts in discussion sum up, almost exactly, what I'd copy out for an OP anyway.

What the hell does "drumpf" even mean?

This link may help explain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_(Last_Week_Tonight)

Note - following the quote tree, Arch linked the "political nicknaming report megathread", which explicitly made note of "Drumpf", a word I'd not heard of before.
In brief summary of the wiki link, Drumpf is the ancestral form of Trump's family name. John Oliver, through a shell company, got "Drumpf" trademarked in parody of Trump's name brand, and is trying to popularise the old form of Trump's family name to try and counteract his brand effect - because it sounds "less mystical" or some such.

So yes, it's intended as a political attack, but in my opinion from just having found out about it, it seems completely benign.
Continuing the quote trees:

This link may help explain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_(Last_Week_Tonight)

Interesting.

Drumpf is apparently Trump's actual family name though. Is this not much the same as calling Zac Goldsmith "Frank", or Boris Johnson "de Pfeffel", even if you do so just because you think those parts of their names are dorkier than how they market themselves?

My family name is an eventual corruption of "gatekeeper", I wouldn't exactly call it a grave insult for someone to note that my family name was once something different to what it is now.

I'd consider it bizarre, since it's not even particularly dorky-sounding. Especially when the current name is dorkier.

Interesting.

Drumpf is apparently Trump's actual family name though.

Except it isn't. It's a deliberate attempt to use a disputed archaic form of the name that hasn't been used for at least 130 years, and possibly much longer, to ridicule Trump and his policies.

I think it's fairly well known that I'm no fan of the presumptive Republican nominee, but given the intent is ridicule, it won't be tolerated here as a political nickname; we do have Trump supporters on this site.

Like I said though, I could call [Zac] Goldsmith "Frank" to mock him.
I concede that I regularly call Farage "Niggle Farridge" in reference to a HIGNFY one-liner (and almost every time I do, explain the reference to boot).

If I really wanted to, I could call [David] Cameron "Willie" to make fun of him.

Trump's name doesn't even need to be changed to openly make fun.
I'm afraid I honestly don't see the difference.

Unlike say "Shillary" or "Hameron" which are actual insults, rather than a mocking joke.

If you want to discuss political nicknaming rulings, then by all means please start a discussion thread in Moderation; this isn't the place to have that discussion.

I've thrown in some emphasis (bolded) and one or two name clarifications after the fact. Clarifications have only been to my own statements, and posts have not been edited down, so nothing has be taken out of context here.

I assume this is because I'm British, haven't heard "Drumpf" before and these kind of digs are very common in British politics and commentary; and possibly because of how vicious the American system is and how politics is always a complete nightmare for mods (the forum I came from before NSG actually banned political discussions in their entirety for this reason) - but I do not understand why "Drumpf" is considered actionable.

The examples I listed for British political figures, with the exception of Hameron (and I'm not certain even on that), are non-actionable, from experience. I've lost count of how many times I've made the "Farridge" joke. But that probably is as malicious as Hameron, which is of the same form as Shillary, though not of the same malice.
Meanwhile, I see "Drumpf" to be exactly the same as "Frank" for Zac Goldsmith and "de Pfeffel" for Boris Johnson. Things that surely would not be actionable, even though calling them by such names (names they have, but choose to brand themselves differently) can only be to mock them - apparently the same reason "Drumpf" is considered actionable.

So.

I'm still confused, having read through it all again.

[Hirota]

I use this as a basis for determining why political nicknaming is unacceptable:

Political nicknames are considered trolling because they're used to annoy a politician's followers and can't really be argued with. Making attacks on a politician, such as the recent one where President Obama was called a "spineless coward," while also annoying can be contested. That's why nicknames are not allowed.

Regarding the other examples you suggested, I'd submit the only reason you've not got a warning for them isn't because nobody has reported them. That's probably because this forum is US-dominated, therefore your average poster is less likely to be an advocate of Cameron et al's policies.

[Imperializt Russia]

I use this as a basis for determining why political nicknaming is unacceptable:

Political nicknames are considered trolling because they're used to annoy a politician's followers and can't really be argued with. Making attacks on a politician, such as the recent one where President Obama was called a "spineless coward," while also annoying can be contested. That's why nicknames are not allowed.

Regarding the other examples you suggested, I'd submit the only reason you've not got a warning for them isn't because nobody has reported them. That's probably because this forum is US-dominated, therefore your average poster is less likely to be an advocate of Cameron et al's policies.

Through Arch, the UK politics thread has its own resident UK(ish) mod.

Though for this reason he rarely moderates the thread directly, I'm fairly sure any of these examples would have been seen by him and if necessary, referred further.

[The Archregimancy]

I use this as a basis for determining why political nicknaming is unacceptable:

Regarding the other examples you suggested, I'd submit the only reason you've not got a warning for them isn't because nobody has reported them. That's probably because this forum is US-dominated, therefore your average poster is less likely to be an advocate of Cameron et al's policies.

Through Arch, the UK politics thread has its own resident UK(ish) mod.

Though for this reason he rarely moderates the thread directly, I'm fairly sure any of these examples would have been seen by him and if necessary, referred further.

I almost never get involved in moderation discussions involving the UK politics thread in order to avoid any potential conflict of interest; my personal biases on UK political issues are too well known. If I'm asked a question directly by my colleagues regarding context of UK moderation reports, I will answer that question; but I would never get involved directly in reports, nor would I report a member of our player base myself - in public or private - unless the circumstances were unusual (perhaps if they required immediate response, for example).

Though note that I'm not the only British member of the moderation team.

[AiliailiA]

I use this as a basis for determining why political nicknaming is unacceptable:

Political nicknames are considered trolling because they're used to annoy a politician's followers and can't really be argued with. Making attacks on a politician, such as the recent one where President Obama was called a "spineless coward," while also annoying can be contested. That's why nicknames are not allowed.

Regarding the other examples you suggested, I'd submit the only reason you've not got a warning for them isn't because nobody has reported them. That's probably because this forum is US-dominated, therefore your average poster is less likely to be an advocate of Cameron et al's policies.

That would be a strange standard: that it might offend only some people instead of offending many people.

It's probably more the potential for things to get out of hand quickly (escalate to flaming or personal threats) with more US posters in the US election threads at one time, than UK posters in a UK thread or Malaysian posters in the Malaysian election thread.

I'm saying: not the number of posters who might find it offensive, so much as the number of posters who might react badly to it.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

So I have a question about political nicknaming. It doesn't relate directly to OP, but it's close enough that there's probably no need to start another discussion thread for it. How come if I call Donald Trump a horse's rump, that's non-actionable, and I can even call him what comes out of the rump and that's still non-actionable, but if I call him "Donald Rump", saying essentially the same thing, that's actionable as political nicknaming?

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I wouldn't think that the legitimate shortening or what not of a name would be quite the same as the twisting or corruption of a name, party, what have you - but that's just a personal take on it. It would be in keeping with the forum rules on harassment of players - if they object to it, don't use it - or other persons of interest - if they don't like it, they can sign on and say so. Realizing that the problem sparked with the heated political discussions that happen, it is a bit more prevalent than say, some reality show persona or the like, but still. Even if meant in a less than friendly fashion, I don't think it carries quite the same weight: Donnie or Hil as opposed to Rump or Binton for example. I suppose it'll fall into a 'case by case' bit at this rate, unless otherwise stated, but meh. This take makes sense to me in any case.

[Idzequitch]

So I have a question about political nicknaming. It doesn't relate directly to OP, but it's close enough that there's probably no need to start another discussion thread for it. How come if I call Donald Trump a horse's rump, that's non-actionable, and I can even call him what comes out of the rump and that's still non-actionable, but if I call him "Donald Rump", saying essentially the same thing, that's actionable as political nicknaming?

"Donald Trump is a horse's rump" while rude, is a statement that leaves sufficient opportunity to be argued against. Donald Rump is a nickname used in the midst of an argument, and as such, it doesn't really provide an opportunity to be argued down. At least that's my understanding of it.

[Imperializt Russia]

So I have a question about political nicknaming. It doesn't relate directly to OP, but it's close enough that there's probably no need to start another discussion thread for it. How come if I call Donald Trump a horse's rump, that's non-actionable, and I can even call him what comes out of the rump and that's still non-actionable, but if I call him "Donald Rump", saying essentially the same thing, that's actionable as political nicknaming?

"Donald Trump is a horse's rump" while rude, is a statement that leaves sufficient opportunity to be argued against. Donald Rump is a nickname used in the midst of an argument, and as such, it doesn't really provide an opportunity to be argued down. At least that's my understanding of it.

I never understood this line of reasoning because... it's right there. You can argue against it, there.

"How dare you call him a horse's rump!" Just as you would if they said "Trump is a rump".

[NERVUN]

"Donald Trump is a horse's rump" while rude, is a statement that leaves sufficient opportunity to be argued against. Donald Rump is a nickname used in the midst of an argument, and as such, it doesn't really provide an opportunity to be argued down. At least that's my understanding of it.

I never understood this line of reasoning because... it's right there. You can argue against it, there.

"How dare you call him a horse's rump!" Just as you would if they said "Trump is a rump".

Not really. How, exactly, would you address that without derailing a thread?

Again, the point ISN'T to protect the various politicians, since they do not, to the best of our knowledge, play NS, they are not covered by the rules against flaming or trolling. What it IS for is to keep political threads from getting too heated. These nicknames do nothing more than agitate the supporters of said politician without any real 'return' for doing so.

"Abe is an idiot!" allows for further discussion (Assuming I follow that up with reasons why). It might annoy supporters of Prime Minister Abe, but I'm making an argument that can be addressed. Saying "A-Baka did it again!" doesn't do the same. You can't really argue my choice of nickname, there's no points to address, all it does it rile up people who support Abe who then cannot really respond in kind.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

Hypothetically speaking, if a politician or other famous person did play NS, could we call them an idiot or other mean names? Or would they be protected from criticism by virtue of their NS player status? If so, what's stopping Trump/Hillary/Kim Kardashian from making an NS account just so we can't criticize them?

[Reploid Productions]

Hypothetically speaking, if a politician or other famous person did play NS, could we call them an idiot or other mean names? Or would they be protected from criticism by virtue of their NS player status? If so, what's stopping Trump/Hillary/Kim Kardashian from making an NS account just so we can't criticize them?

C'mon, you know we don't rule on hypotheticals. Frankly, I doubt any public figure would WANT to out themselves as playing NS. I could see far too many haters/opponents/gossip rags having a field day with what their pretend-nations look like.

EDIT TO ADD: Did have one guy who got ejected from the WA for blatant multies try to claim he was Senator Rubio a few years back, as though that would have any actual bearing on his being smacked for cheating. He dropped that line of bologna when I cheerfully said that if he wished to do this in an official capacity, we would need to confirm with the Senator's office etc etc etc. (Suffice to say, evidence on the backend made it VERY clear he was not a Senator from Florida. )

[CoraSpia]

Hypothetically speaking, if a politician or other famous person did play NS, could we call them an idiot or other mean names? Or would they be protected from criticism by virtue of their NS player status? If so, what's stopping Trump/Hillary/Kim Kardashian from making an NS account just so we can't criticize them?

C'mon, you know we don't rule on hypotheticals. Frankly, I doubt any public figure would WANT to out themselves as playing NS. I could see far too many haters/opponents/gossip rags having a field day with what their pretend-nations look like.

EDIT TO ADD: Did have one guy who got ejected from the WA for blatant multies try to claim he was Senator Rubio a few years back, as though that would have any actual bearing on his being smacked for cheating. He dropped that line of bologna when I cheerfully said that if he wished to do this in an official capacity, we would need to confirm with the Senator's office etc etc etc. (Suffice to say, evidence on the backend made it VERY clear he was not a Senator from Florida. )

What would you actually have done if you'd received an email from Rubio's official senate email which backed his claim up?

[The Blaatschapen]

C'mon, you know we don't rule on hypotheticals. Frankly, I doubt any public figure would WANT to out themselves as playing NS. I could see far too many haters/opponents/gossip rags having a field day with what their pretend-nations look like.

EDIT TO ADD: Did have one guy who got ejected from the WA for blatant multies try to claim he was Senator Rubio a few years back, as though that would have any actual bearing on his being smacked for cheating. He dropped that line of bologna when I cheerfully said that if he wished to do this in an official capacity, we would need to confirm with the Senator's office etc etc etc. (Suffice to say, evidence on the backend made it VERY clear he was not a Senator from Florida. )

What would you actually have done if you'd received an email from Rubio's official senate email which backed his claim up?

Print it and hang it on the wall.

For the rest, we don't rule on hypotheticals

[Reploid Productions]

And to add to Blaat's comment- being an actual Senator still wouldn't have gotten the guy off the hook for cheating. Just imagine the fun any US politician's rivals and opposition would have on discovering their opponent was running a fascist/communist/other outlandishly extreme/unpopular flavor of ideology on a political simulator. All those RMB posts and forum posts brimming with material to be quoted out of context and used against them... that'd be all sorts of fun!

[Ethel mermania]

As to the rule, I think it works as intended. I hope it is kept.

[Whitefist America]

Gentlemen if I may add an easier way to come up with political nicknames! http://www.generatorland.com/usergenerator.aspx?id=6544

[Shazbotdom]

Gentlemen if I may add an easier way to come up with political nicknames! http://www.generatorland.com/usergenerator.aspx?id=6544

That website would be an express way to get banned from these forums. Seeing as they look down upon Political Nicknaming here.

[Reploid Productions]

Gentlemen if I may add an easier way to come up with political nicknames! http://www.generatorland.com/usergenerator.aspx?id=6544

That website would be an express way to get banned from these forums. Seeing as they look down upon Political Nicknaming here.

Eeyup. Political nicknaming is political nicknaming, whether you exercise your own creativity or use a tool to come up with it.

[Whitefist America]

That website would be an express way to get banned from these forums. Seeing as they look down upon Political Nicknaming here.

Eeyup. Political nicknaming is political nicknaming, whether you exercise your own creativity or use a tool to come up with it.

With all "due respect" it's not a tool to cause an "uproar"!

[Reploid Productions]

Eeyup. Political nicknaming is political nicknaming, whether you exercise your own creativity or use a tool to come up with it.

With all "due respect" it's not a tool to cause an "uproar"!

It's a tool to generate political nicknames. Which, as already explained, are considered as trolling. Use such a tool at your own risk.

[Whitefist America]

With all "due respect" it's not a tool to cause an "uproar"!

It's a tool to generate political nicknames. Which, as already explained, are considered as trolling. Use such a tool at your own risk.

Well trolling is by definition any use of language that is inappropriate and also considered offensive. How is it trolling when it doesn't say anything negative?

[Phydios]

It's a tool to generate political nicknames. Which, as already explained, are considered as trolling. Use such a tool at your own risk.

Well trolling is by definition any use of language that is inappropriate and also considered offensive. How is it trolling when it doesn't say anything negative?

You could look farther up this thread:

These nicknames do nothing more than agitate the supporters of said politician without any real 'return' for doing so.

"Abe is an idiot!" allows for further discussion (Assuming I follow that up with reasons why). It might annoy supporters of Prime Minister Abe, but I'm making an argument that can be addressed. Saying "A-Baka did it again!" doesn't do the same. You can't really argue my choice of nickname, there's no points to address, all it does it rile up people who support Abe who then cannot really respond in kind.

[Whitefist America]

Well trolling is by definition any use of language that is inappropriate and also considered offensive. How is it trolling when it doesn't say anything negative?

You could look farther up this thread:

These nicknames do nothing more than agitate the supporters of said politician without any real 'return' for doing so.

"Abe is an idiot!" allows for further discussion (Assuming I follow that up with reasons why). It might annoy supporters of Prime Minister Abe, but I'm making an argument that can be addressed. Saying "A-Baka did it again!" doesn't do the same. You can't really argue my choice of nickname, there's no points to address, all it does it rile up people who support Abe who then cannot really respond in kind.

I think the phrase "Abe is an idiot" borders on trolling and also if you put "go kill yourself" in front of anything is the best example of trolling.

[The Archregimancy]

You could look farther up this thread:

I think the phrase "Abe is an idiot" borders on trolling and also if you put "go kill yourself" in front of anything is the best example of trolling.

We are not going to start warning everyone on this site who claims that a politician is an idiot.


'Go kill yourself' is certainly actionable, but I don't see why that's particularly relevant to this thread.