[Discussion] Concern over recent moderator action

[[violet]]

It is hugely inappropriate to publicly post a moderator's private Facebook account. I'm extremely disappointed you did that. To date, the rules have focused on how mods will not share players' personally identifying information, but we will be updating them to clarify that doxing people is a DEATable offense.

Once again, it is not private. It is very much public, and she used it to post as such on the NationStates Facebook page - as far back as 2010 identifying herself under that account as being Reppy, right here. I checked prior to linking. I'm not that goram stupid. Were it not for that fact, it would never have happened, and I'd have just mentioned it.

It's not for you, or anyone else, to decide that someone has waived their right to privacy. It is categorically unacceptable in any circumstances to post personally identifying information. It is especially serious in the case of a mod who has deal with many pissed-off and irrational people in the course of doing their job.

[The Remnants a Flaming Dawn]

Once again, it is not private. It is very much public, and she used it to post as such on the NationStates Facebook page - as far back as 2010 identifying herself under that account as being Reppy, right here. I checked prior to linking. I'm not that goram stupid. Were it not for that fact, it would never have happened, and I'd have just mentioned it.

It's not for you, or anyone else, to decide that someone has waived their right to privacy. It is categorically unacceptable in any circumstances to post personally identifying information. It is especially serious in the case of a mod who has deal with many pissed-off and irrational people in the course of doing their job.

Can you please deal with the issue of a tight collared conservative trying to say that what the banned did was illegal by putting up snippets from codes of law from countries that are not the ones that neither the users live in, nor Nationstates abides too? I'm pretty sure Canada is not Australia

[Bycrest]

Would you charge is against two collaborating authors who were creating a piece of fiction and had to send material to each other in order to complete their work? That is essentially what an RP is, the authors themselves are not involved in the sexual acts but their characters are.

Legally irrelevant. It's sexual material and by sending("transmitting") it to minors, it is a felony offense. except;

...unless the accused took reasonable steps to ascertain the age of the person.

- Criminal code of Canada

That's not what was said though. AIS said that Sexting itself was a federal offence, which it isn't. And which Nanatsu confirmed isn't.

It's a felony, not a federal offense but a state-level offense and i was wrong. Unless you're in Canada, then yeah, it's a federal offense.

It's not illegal for two consenting adults to sext, but for an adult to sext a minor is a serious sex offense in both Canada and U.S.A.

You make the assumption that they didn't exchange age information. These people do know each other fairly well and it is entirely possible they knew each others age before going into this. And I find it hard to believe that the laws would arrest two young authors for a work of fiction.

[Ethel mermania]

Jesus christ, it's a state offense not federal. So is rape, theft and murder yet all states have laws against them.

JFC, are you not reading what I'm posting. Or are you intentionally misconstruing it? I'm fairly certain that my post is straightforward.

Sexting itself is not illegal.

Sexting involving minors is, for obvious reasons.

I swear, reading comprehension has gone down the tube lately.

Check yours the piece you respond too had defined 2 15 year olds as the sexters.

Legally Adults can send all the nudes to each other they want. (Not on this site ) with children involved it becomes child porn. Is it really so fucking hard to understand?

[Tiltjuice]

The criminal law is beside the point, it's evident in the terms of service (which is by itself legally binding).

[American Imperial State]

Legally irrelevant. It's sexual material and by sending("transmitting") it to minors, it is a felony offense. except;

- Criminal code of Canada





It's a felony, not a federal offense but a state-level offense and i was wrong. Unless you're in Canada, then yeah, it's a federal offense.

It's not illegal for two consenting adults to sext, but for an adult to sext a minor is a serious sex offense in both Canada and U.S.A.

You make the assumption that they didn't exchange age information. These people do know each other fairly well and it is entirely possible they knew each others age before going into this. And I find it hard to believe that the laws would arrest two young authors for a work of fiction.

If they knew the other person was underage, that actually makes it worse. Given the large number of minors here and the fact someone already came forward and said, "yeah, i was underage and they manipulated me into a sexual situation", i think it's very likely minors were involved in this situation.

I made the point to say that children were involved and that it has questionable legality in supporting the moderator's tough response. people questioned my point that it is illegal so i responded. Someone specifically asked for the relevant canadian criminal code because the servers are based in Canada, so i obliged. That's how this all went down. it's not just some tight collared conservative bleating off.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

What's amusing here is that some of you are laboring under the delusion that you have any leg to stand on with your 'we consented' or 'we have rights'. You don't. Not any more than I did when being told I was done modding. Various national, international, or local laws do not apply in any way other than what the site owner and mod team choose to follow them. What counts is what is listed as site rules, and how they choose to uphold them.

The mods and admins have warned repeatedly about sexting, cybering, misuse of the site, the site tools, all that. There is no excuse for it. And the mods get to decide on what the penalty is for breaking those stated rules. You don't get to choose what penalties you take. They've made that abundantly clear even in this thread, speaking from personal experience.

You don't like the sentenced passed on you? File an appeal. If you get it denied, you may have a final appeal, depending on where you're at in the process. You get that denied?

Well son, you're shit outta luck. You can choose to keep banging your head against that brick wall, or you can choose to move forward. The mods aren't going to give two shits either way - but they will rain holy hell down on you if you continue to present a problem for 'em. Again, know this from experience.

It's nice to have the illusion of freedom of speech, of rights, of some sort of ownership in the site, in your communities, in the alliances, organizations, game sections, forums, and hell, multiverses you've taken part in, and created. But end of the day, it boils down to whim, and whether or not the site owner and his mod team and admins will allow it. Frankly, I don't have nearly as much faith in the overall system, and some of the people as I used to, and I've got exactly zero influence - in fact, it probably ranks in the negatives now, come to think of it. But I've got some insight, and I've offered it.

Do what you will with it, but don't sit there and blame others, play innocent, confuse the issue with laws that have no bearing on the matter, or think that you're going to get a lot of response once they go to ground, or get told to let we, the players, talk ourselves in circles until we get tired of it. Not gonna happen. Especially given the absence of a few traditional rabble-rousers and all-around malcontents. Or at the very least, pursuants of justice, consistency, and fair treatment.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

"yeah, i was underage and they manipulated me into a sexual situation"

Without anything backing that up that accusation is useless for this discussion.

[The Nihilistic view]

Sometimes the law is a ass. This could be one of those times in some places with regards to sexing, at least in the UK. The law is not consistent with the age of consent and actually can criminalise the person sending the images. Two 17 year olds can legally have sex but if one sends a picture of their penis to the other then that is a crime and they could end up on the sex offenders register. That seems absurd to me.

Going back to the actual issue whether it was illegal or not is really not something we can or should comment on. What was done is against site rules and has been dealt with. I am sure if they have enough information and the victims concerned who wish to have some help want to take it further if that is possible they will do what they can to help. I am also equally sure if that was indeed the case now would not be the time to talk about what is or is not happening off site or behind the scenes with any of this.

It makes me sad mods had to deal with stuff like this and I hope any involved who were victims are ok. The transparency here with this issue sends a strong message one I think is most definitely a good one. But past that offsite is not really relevant to us right without us knowing exactly what was said in those TGs. More to the point we don't need to know exactly what was in them and I don't even feel like I want to know, I feel a little sick thinking about it whilst typing this. And if there was an investigation talking about it on a public forum is not exactly the best decision in most legal jurisdictions whilst it is going on.

I am also confident the mods and Max would do the right thing if needed in the so called "real world" regarding anything that has gone down. So I don't think we need to go down this illegal/not illegal road. That is not for us, the topic here is moderator action with regards to posting what they did about the issue.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Once again, it is not private. It is very much public, and she used it to post as such on the NationStates Facebook page - as far back as 2010 identifying herself under that account as being Reppy, right here. I checked prior to linking. I'm not that goram stupid. Were it not for that fact, it would never have happened, and I'd have just mentioned it.

It's not for you, or anyone else, to decide that someone has waived their right to privacy. It is categorically unacceptable in any circumstances to post personally identifying information. It is especially serious in the case of a mod who has deal with many pissed-off and irrational people in the course of doing their job.

Cute. No one said anything about waiving rights. I've only stated that it was public, not private knowledge, and pertinent due to it being utilized freely on NS-based Facebook pages and groups. Hence, yaknow ... it not being private.

I'm not laboring under any delusions, unlike some of the other folks here. I haven't asked for any appeals, though you seem to think I have. I know I won't be granted any, all things considered. But please - continue to dig those holes, and illustrate the hypocrisy that I argued against - and will still argue against when I see it. The only difference now is I don't have access to records, and no longer am forced to consider the mod team's image, your image, and your dictates. I only have to operate within site rules.

And as I've just gotten done stating, those really do boil down to your whims, and those of the site owners, don't they? Good day, [violet]. And good luck going forward.

[Bycrest]

You make the assumption that they didn't exchange age information. These people do know each other fairly well and it is entirely possible they knew each others age before going into this. And I find it hard to believe that the laws would arrest two young authors for a work of fiction.

If they knew the other person was underage, that actually makes it worse. Given the large number of minors here and the fact someone already came forward and said, "yeah, i was underage and they manipulated me into a sexual situation", i think it's very likely minors were involved in this situation.

I made the point to say that children were involved and that it has questionable legality in supporting the moderator's tough response. people questioned my point that it is illegal so i responded. Someone specifically asked for the relevant canadian criminal code because the servers are based in Canada, so i obliged. That's how this all went down. it's not just some tight collared conservative bleating off.

You just contradicted yourself. You said:

Would you charge is against two collaborating authors who were creating a piece of fiction and had to send material to each other in order to complete their work? That is essentially what an RP is, the authors themselves are not involved in the sexual acts but their characters are.

Legally irrelevant. It's sexual material and by sending("transmitting") it to minors, it is a felony offense. except;

...unless the accused took reasonable steps to ascertain the age of the person.

- Criminal code of Canada

According to the code you chose to use, and how you worded it, it is technically not a felony offense if the "accused took steps to ascertain the age of the person." Now you're saying it's worse if they knew the age.

[American Imperial State]

If they knew the other person was underage, that actually makes it worse. Given the large number of minors here and the fact someone already came forward and said, "yeah, i was underage and they manipulated me into a sexual situation", i think it's very likely minors were involved in this situation.

I made the point to say that children were involved and that it has questionable legality in supporting the moderator's tough response. people questioned my point that it is illegal so i responded. Someone specifically asked for the relevant canadian criminal code because the servers are based in Canada, so i obliged. That's how this all went down. it's not just some tight collared conservative bleating off.

You just contradicted yourself. You said:

Legally irrelevant. It's sexual material and by sending("transmitting") it to minors, it is a felony offense. except;

- Criminal code of Canada

According to the code you chose to use, and how you worded it, it is technically not a felony offense if the "accused took steps to ascertain the age of the person." Now you're saying it's worse if they knew the age.

Yes, it's worse if they're aware that the recipient was underage.

[Bycrest]

You just contradicted yourself. You said:


According to the code you chose to use, and how you worded it, it is technically not a felony offense if the "accused took steps to ascertain the age of the person." Now you're saying it's worse if they knew the age.

Yes, it's worse if they're aware that the recipient was underage.

So you admit you contradicted yourself?

[American Imperial State]

Yes, it's worse if they're aware that the recipient was underage.

So you admit you contradicted yourself?

No, i'm saying if they knew the recepient was underage, it's worse because they were aware they were committing a criminal act. If they didn't know they were underage, it's still not an excuse unless they took reasonable steps to find out if the recepient was underage.

So--

They know the recepient is underage = Jail

They didn't bother to find out if the recepient was underage -- Jail

[Kryozerkia]

One more thing, is there any chance that whoever oversees the appeal takes a look at the evidence and decides the punishment isn't harsh enough?

There is a chance of that, but typically in a situation such as this, you may simply received an "appeal denied" response. There was a team-wide sign off on the punishments. It would require extraordinary circumstances, such as new evidence to yield that sort of response.

[The Remnants a Flaming Dawn]

So you admit you contradicted yourself?

No, i'm saying if they knew the recepient was underage, it's worse because they were aware they were committing a criminal act. If they didn't know they were underage, it's still not an excuse unless they took reasonable steps to find out if the recepient was underage.

So--

They know the recepient is underage = Jail

They didn't bother to find out if the recepient was underage -- Jail

I don't live in Canada, so based on the law you pulled up I cannot go to jail since I am not a legal citizen of Canada, I have to abide to the laws set in place by the United States and International Laws, neitehr of which you have stated, merely saying that state laws can have people arrested for doing such as crime.

[Bycrest]

So you admit you contradicted yourself?

No, i'm saying if they knew the recepient was underage, it's worse because they were aware they were committing a criminal act. If they didn't know they were underage, it's still not an excuse unless they took reasonable steps to find out if the recepient was underage.

So--

They know the recepient is underage = Jail

They didn't bother to find out if the recepient was underage -- Jail

So what you're essentially saying is that everyone involved in the incident should go to jail. Because what you painted out is a lose-lose situation.

[Kryozerkia]

So you admit you contradicted yourself?

No, i'm saying if they knew the recepient was underage, it's worse because they were aware they were committing a criminal act. If they didn't know they were underage, it's still not an excuse unless they took reasonable steps to find out if the recepient was underage.

So--

They know the recepient is underage = Jail

They didn't bother to find out if the recepient was underage -- Jail

You've been told to drop this. The life span for this is over. I'm pulling the plug. This of course now applies to those replying. Let's keep it relevant.

[Farnhamia]

No, i'm saying if they knew the recepient was underage, it's worse because they were aware they were committing a criminal act. If they didn't know they were underage, it's still not an excuse unless they took reasonable steps to find out if the recepient was underage.

So--

They know the recepient is underage = Jail

They didn't bother to find out if the recepient was underage -- Jail

I don't live in Canada, so based on the law you pulled up I cannot go to jail since I am not a legal citizen of Canada, I have to abide to the laws set in place by the United States and International Laws, neitehr of which you have stated, merely saying that state laws can have people arrested for doing such as crime.

While it's true that you don't have to worry about breaking Canadian laws, I'm pretty sure that if the Canadian authorities wanted you badly enough for violating one of their laws, they could swear out a warrant for your arrest and extradition. And as Kryo says, you digress.

[The Remnants a Flaming Dawn]

I don't live in Canada, so based on the law you pulled up I cannot go to jail since I am not a legal citizen of Canada, I have to abide to the laws set in place by the United States and International Laws, neitehr of which you have stated, merely saying that state laws can have people arrested for doing such as crime.

While it's true that you don't have to worry about breaking Canadian laws, I'm pretty sure that if the Canadian authorities wanted you badly enough for violating one of their laws, they could swear out a warrant for your arrest and extradition.

Yes, but am I the most wanted in Canada? No

Have I ever been threatening in any of my TG towards my Rp partner? No

Is there any reason besides the above mentioned sexting to be arrested? No

I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear.

[Esternial]

Once again, it is not private. It is very much public, and she used it to post as such on the NationStates Facebook page - as far back as 2010 identifying herself under that account as being Reppy, right here. I checked prior to linking. I'm not that goram stupid. Were it not for that fact, it would never have happened, and I'd have just mentioned it.

It's not for you, or anyone else, to decide that someone has waived their right to privacy. It is categorically unacceptable in any circumstances to post personally identifying information. It is especially serious in the case of a mod who has deal with many pissed-off and irrational people in the course of doing their job.

Now that we've lured you in here...

How about expanding the OSRS in light of this moderation action? The "offensive material" section is kind of light and might deserve more nuance. Maybe it'd be helpful to state that, while non-PG13 stuff is clearly not allowed on the forums, taking it to TG is NOT an alternative.

Because that's a notion that was apparently still alive and kicking.

[Cogitation]

Relevant quote is relevant.

The NationStates Moderation Team wishes to announce that an error was detected in an earlier forum-wide announced action.

When nations were being categorized into lists for DOS, puppetsweeps, DEATS, and Innocent Bystanders, "Blood and Insanity" should have been put on the "Innocent Bystanders" list but was instead placed on the "DEAT" list and actioned accordingly.

Upon further examination, "Blood and Insanity" is not guilty of any NationStates rule violations known to Moderation, whatsoever, and has been restored accordingly. We wish to certify that, at this time, we believe "Blood and Insanity" to have a completely clean Moderation record. We apologize to "Blood and Insanity" for the incorrect deletion and for incorrectly naming this player as one of the offenders.

Let this player hold their head up high. Let them walk amongst us with all the respect and civility due to any rule-abiding player. This player is fully exonerated.

--The NationStates Moderation Team

Any related discussion should continue to remain in the present thread.

[Hetalia Dakota 2 II]

While it's true that you don't have to worry about breaking Canadian laws, I'm pretty sure that if the Canadian authorities wanted you badly enough for violating one of their laws, they could swear out a warrant for your arrest and extradition.

Yes, but am I the most wanted in Canada? No

Have I ever been threatening in any of my TG towards my Rp partner? No

Is there any reason besides the above mentioned sexting to be arrested? No

I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear.

What're you trying to prove? You did something wrong, got caught, and now feel morally justified to complain how you're being treated and punished. You don't get to be offended over getting in trouble for wrongdoing, for some reason though you seem to believe whining and acting as the victim will lead to anything positive. Please explain this to me.

[Cybraxia]

JFC, are you not reading what I'm posting. Or are you intentionally misconstruing it? I'm fairly certain that my post is straightforward.

Sexting itself is not illegal.

Sexting involving minors is, for obvious reasons.

I swear, reading comprehension has gone down the tube lately.

Check yours the piece you respond too had defined 2 15 year olds as the sexters.

Legally Adults can send all the nudes to each other they want. (Not on this site ) with children involved it becomes child porn. Is it really so fucking hard to understand?

Apparently you can't comprehend what I'm saying, and I'm just going to keep getting madder, so I'm just going to stop.

The person I quoted stated that Sexting was a federal offense. All I was doing was pointing out that they were wrong on that account, on terms of omission.

You can keep misconstruing my posts, but at this point I don't even care anymore.

[The Remnants a Flaming Dawn]

Yes, but am I the most wanted in Canada? No

Have I ever been threatening in any of my TG towards my Rp partner? No

Is there any reason besides the above mentioned sexting to be arrested? No

I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear.

What're you trying to prove? You did something wrong, got caught, and now feel morally justified to complain how you're being treated and punished. You don't get to be offended over getting in trouble for wrongdoing, for some reason though you seem to believe whining and acting as the victim will lead to anything positive. Please explain this to me.

I'm not mad about the punishment, I was mad at how the issue was handled and how some users are trying to get us arrested for fictional works...