[Discussion]Holocaust Denial & The Trolling Rule

[United Dependencies]

First let me give some definitions:

From the site:

Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling. Disagreements are expected and conducting yourself in a civil manner is ideal.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=260044#020
From Wiki:

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust during World War II.[1][2] Holocaust denial includes any of the following claims: that the German Nazi government's Final Solution policy aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, and included no policy to exterminate Jews; that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; and that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.

...

The methodologies of Holocaust deniers are based on a predetermined conclusion that ignores overwhelming historical evidence to the contrary.[8]

Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples.[9] For this reason, Holocaust denial is considered to be an antisemitic[10] conspiracy theory,[11] and is frequently criticised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

When the topic of holocaust denial comes up in the moderation forums, the normal argument is that holocaust denial, while very distasteful, is still allowed in so much as it is honestly argued. However I think the circumstances that surround such an opinion allows it to be considered trolling regardless of the honesty of opinion.
These circumstances include:
1. Complete denial of proven historical fact
2. Politicizing of one of the worst human tragedies from all of human existence
3. The inclusion, more often than not, of claims of some sort of conspiracy by Jewish persons.

I believe that when a reasonable person takes the above into consideration, they will conclude that holocaust denial, whether truthful or not, is an opinion that will only aggrieve other posters. This effect is only increased when we consider that there are posters on here who have a personal or familial connection to the holocaust. There is simply no way to argue or debate with a holocaust denier. Countless threads here and elsewhere on the internet as well as real life discussions have born this out.

Therefore, I believe that it is the best interest of our community for posts that can be defined as holocaust denial to be classified as trolling (or possibly some lesser offense).

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I have to agree with this. If anything should fall under "Honest belief does not excuse trolling", it's this. There's no arguing it down. If this were simply a matter of mistaken belief, like Young Earth Creationism, it would simply be annoying, but it always goes hand in hand with insulting the survivors of the Shoah by accusing them of lying, and insulting the memories of the dead by claiming that they experienced something other than one of the most horrifying crimes against humanity to be carried out in the 20th century. And the people who make these claims KNOW this, and yet they will post this nonsense anyway.

[Nuwe Suid Afrika]

Holocaust Denial isn't trolling. There is a large population of people who genuinely don't believe the holocaust ever happened.

There are many very important people who are open about their disbelief of the holocaust.

"A 1992 survey by the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith showed that 20 percent of Americans—between 30 to 40 million adults—held antisemitic views, as against 29 percent in 1964."

They key point in this is not the decline, but the amount of people that hold these beliefs.

By banning Holocaust Denial we're just censoring free speech.

[United Dependencies]

Holocaust Denial isn't trolling. There is a large population of people who genuinely don't believe the holocaust ever happened.

There are many very important people who are open about their disbelief of the holocaust.

"A 1992 survey by the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith showed that 20 percent of Americans—between 30 to 40 million adults—held antisemitic views, as against 29 percent in 1964."

They key point in this is not the decline, but the amount of people that hold these beliefs.

While I appreciate your contribution of evidence for the mods and other admins to consider, I will note that my argument for why holocaust denial should be considered trolling rests on the caustic nature of the opinion itself, rather than the likelihood that someone is arguing it truthfully or not.

edit: As for the concern on free speech, I will simply point back to the rule I posted at the beginning:

Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people.*snip* Honest belief does not excuse trolling. Disagreements are expected and conducting yourself in a civil manner is ideal.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=260044#020

[District XIV]

By banning Holocaust Denial we're just censoring free speech.

That's nice. 'Thing is, free speech doesn't exist here:

It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Holocaust Denial isn't trolling. There is a large population of people who genuinely don't believe the holocaust ever happened.

There are many very important people who are open about their disbelief of the holocaust.

"A 1992 survey by the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith showed that 20 percent of Americans—between 30 to 40 million adults—held antisemitic views, as against 29 percent in 1964."

They key point in this is not the decline, but the amount of people that hold these beliefs.

By banning Holocaust Denial we're just censoring free speech.

Last things first: There is no such thing as free speech on this forum, so that's not relevant.

Anti-Semitic views do not necessarily constitute Holocaust denial. Thinking that Jews have too much power, or owe too much allegiance to Israel, is not the same thing as denying the cold-blooded murder of millions of people based upon religion and ethnicity. Besides, not only Jews perished, so it's not just an anti-Semitic thing.

Finally, the fact that people sincerely hold these beliefs does not mean that they are unaware that such beliefs are inflammatory, nor does it mean that their motivations for stating said beliefs are sincere and free of underhanded motivations to poke the beehive.

[Burleson 2]

*sarcasm* Yes, this must be done. We must also ban the expression of all other unpopular opinions, such as expressing opposition to Obama, or support of creationism.

You can't just call it trolling when someone expresses their genuine opinion, no matter how controversial it is. As long as the poster isn't posting for the sole reason of pissing off other posters, it's not trolling.

[The Emerald Dragon]

I don't deny the Holocaust - I believe however that it happened with much less people. Around 4 million to 4.5 million would be the honest number that I believe died in Nazi death camps. I mean, six million deaths was the agreed upon figure used by historians - there wasn't any concrete evidence to back the figures.

Anyway...

I believe that if a person can deny it without going all "TEH EBUL JEWS WITH THEIR GLOBAL ILLUMINAZI CONSPIRACUUUUU!!!!!" then it should be considered (distasteful) but not trolling.

[Jumalariik]

I don't deny the Holocaust - I believe however that it happened with much less people. Around 4 million to 4.5 million would be the honest number that I believe died in Nazi death camps. I mean, six million deaths was the agreed upon figure used by historians - there wasn't any concrete evidence to back the figures.

Anyway...

I believe that if a person can deny it without going all "TEH EBUL JEWS WITH THEIR GLOBAL ILLUMINAZI CONSPIRACUUUUU!!!!!" then it should be considered (distasteful) but not trolling.

Well said.

[Patria Magna]

Holocaust Denial is an uniformed, wrong, evil belief but it is not trolling, as it does not seek to provoke any sort of attack nor does it directly attack anyone, nor is it spam.

[United Dependencies]

*sarcasm* Yes, this must be done. We must also ban the expression of all other unpopular opinions, such as expressing opposition to Obama, or support of creationism.

You can't just call it trolling when someone expresses their genuine opinion, no matter how controversial it is. As long as the poster isn't posting for the sole reason of pissing off other posters, it's not trolling.

Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling. Disagreements are expected and conducting yourself in a civil manner is ideal.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=260044#020

The point is not that holocaust denial is controversial, it's downright caustic. Such posts will only aggrieve players on this forum and so I think it would be better for our community for these posts to be considered a rules violation.

[Neo Rome Republic]

It seems ridiculous how being transphobic is trolling, however holocaust denial is an "unpopular opinion".

[Northwest Slobovia]

By itself, I can't say that "I don't believe the Holocaust happened" is trolling. However, there are plenty of ways that statement can be made which are intended to piss people off. So, I'm willing to leave it up to the moderation team to figure out which cases deserve a spanking.

[MERIZoC]

*sarcasm* Yes, this must be done. We must also ban the expression of all other unpopular opinions, such as expressing opposition to Obama, or support of creationism.

You can't just call it trolling when someone expresses their genuine opinion, no matter how controversial it is. As long as the poster isn't posting for the sole reason of pissing off other posters, it's not trolling.

If my genuine opinion is that Holocaust deniers are "massive dicks" and I express that, I'm gonna get warned.

[United Dependencies]

By itself, I can't say that "I don't believe the Holocaust happened" is trolling. However, there are plenty of ways that statement can be made which are intended to piss people off. So, I'm willing to leave it up to the moderation team to figure out which cases deserve a spanking.

I will grant that your hypothetical statement seems passable, but I think we have problems once we get out of the realm of the hypothetical and into actual posts. Considering that this is a debate forum, statements such as your hypothetical are usually followed by some manner of "argument" which is usually both obstinate and makes light of a terrible human tragedy.

Such "debates" usually end with most of the posters involved more angry/upset than when they started. As such, I don't think we should allow something so caustic in our forum community.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

By itself, I can't say that "I don't believe the Holocaust happened" is trolling. However, there are plenty of ways that statement can be made which are intended to piss people off. So, I'm willing to leave it up to the moderation team to figure out which cases deserve a spanking.

I can think of very few ways to make that statement that aren't intended to piss people off.

[Northwest Slobovia]

By itself, I can't say that "I don't believe the Holocaust happened" is trolling. However, there are plenty of ways that statement can be made which are intended to piss people off. So, I'm willing to leave it up to the moderation team to figure out which cases deserve a spanking.

I will grant that your hypothetical statement seems passable, but I think we have problems once we get out of the realm of the hypothetical and into actual posts. Considering that this is a debate forum, statements such as your hypothetical are usually followed by some manner of "argument" which is usually both obstinate and makes light of a terrible human tragedy.

Perhaps I'm being unusually optimistic, but I suspect that if those "arguments" are reported, redtext will flow quickly, and if repeated, posters will discover that NS has its own ways of dealing with those who oppose the will of Unsere Fürher, Maximillian von Barrie.

[Independent State AF]

Generally, being a Holocaust denier means you literally just announce everything which backs it up as Jew conspiracy or Zionism or some such.
You cant really argue what...seventy years of very well established and proven historical fact. I see no real way to be one without trolling.

[Mike the Progressive]

By banning Holocaust Denial we're just censoring free speech.

That's nice. 'Thing is, free speech doesn't exist here:

It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

This is true. We don't have free speech here. But holocaust denial, as messed up as it is, is not trolling. People legitimately believe it and should be able to espouse that view.

Generally, being a Holocaust denier means you literally just announce everything which backs it up as Jew conspiracy or Zionism or some such.
You cant really argue what...seventy years of very well established and proven historical fact. I see no real way to be one without trolling.

Conversely, we have people who believe in some old man in the sky with unlimited powers, exists outside of time and space and is all knowing. Despite the lack of evidence, he is frequently brought up in discussions on here. The reaction seems to be universal. So I see no real way how mentioning god isn't trolling, especially when it just annoys the majority of Generalites when he's used to justify whatever position that thread supports/opposes.

[Independent State AF]

That's nice. 'Thing is, free speech doesn't exist here:

This is true. We don't have free speech here. But holocaust denial, as messed up as it is, is not trolling. People legitimately believe it and should be able to espouse that view.

"Honest belief does not excuse trolling." Granted this is a murky area, but I'm pretty sure its still trolling.

[Mike the Progressive]

This is true. We don't have free speech here. But holocaust denial, as messed up as it is, is not trolling. People legitimately believe it and should be able to espouse that view.

"Honest belief does not excuse trolling." Granted this is a murky area, but I'm pretty sure its still trolling.

It's a very murky area. NSG is predominantly left-leaning, non-religious. Honest belief in god or liberalism could be construed as trolling, especially when the reactions by most generalites are so predictable.

[Idzequitch]

My memory doesn't work so well, so excuse me if I'm mistaken, but I believe the mods have stated that they aren't going to "ban" certain beliefs, so long as said beliefs are expressed in a non-inflammatory way. Certain beliefs, such as Holocaust denial, are exceedingly difficult to express without trolling, but I believe it can be done. It wouldn't be much fun to debate the topic, since most "arguments" in support of that position would be considered trolling, and indeed, it seems that it usually is considered trolling when someone takes that position. However, to put a blanket label of trolling on the belief that the Holocaust didn't happen seems unnecessary.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

It's quite contradictory and ludicrous that we've banned nazi flash and the like, but we're alright with holocaust denial. Not to mention, given the fair sized Jewish community on these forums, I feel that holocaust denial comes off as "flamebaity."

[Independent State AF]

That's nice. 'Thing is, free speech doesn't exist here:

This is true. We don't have free speech here. But holocaust denial, as messed up as it is, is not trolling. People legitimately believe it and should be able to espouse that view.

Generally, being a Holocaust denier means you literally just announce everything which backs it up as Jew conspiracy or Zionism or some such.
You cant really argue what...seventy years of very well established and proven historical fact. I see no real way to be one without trolling.

Conversely, we have people who believe in some old man in the sky with unlimited powers, exists outside of time and space and is all knowing. Despite the lack of evidence, he is frequently brought up in discussions on here. The reaction seems to be universal. So I see no real way how mentioning god isn't trolling, especially when it just annoys the majority of Generalites when he's used to justify whatever position that thread supports/opposes.

Fair enough. I think that has more to do with God being such a widespread belief (and being a religion, religious rights an all dat) that to label it as trolling well....Lets just say A&B and people like him wouldn't last very long here.

[Idzequitch]

"Honest belief does not excuse trolling." Granted this is a murky area, but I'm pretty sure its still trolling.

It's a very murky area. NSG is predominantly left-leaning, non-religious. Honest belief in god or liberalism could be construed as trolling, especially when the reactions by most generalites are so predictable.

But getting negative reactions is not the offense here. Fishing for negative reactions is the actual offense nearly every time. There are some instances where the author's intent is misconstrued, but that doesn't seem terribly common.