[Discussion] In Defense of "X in Your Nation" Threads

[Victorious Decepticons]

[Apologies if there is already a thread for this. I didn't see one, and I figure that trying to search up "in your nation" in this forum would get me a billion irrelevant results.]

For the first time, I am compelled to complain about a trend in moderation. Recently, this sticky was pasted over F&NI, declaring the very heart and soul of the forum to be nothing but spam: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=321241

Like usual, I decided to wait and see what would happen. However, right from the start, the basic premise of the declaration was faulty. The simple reason is that "X in Your Nation" threads are NOT SPAM. They are the very foundation of world-building and the heart and soul of F&NI. My own nation was built on answers to the questions posed in hundreds of these threads over the years. The so-called "trivia" that the moderator has no interest in IS interesting to hundreds of other players, as evidenced by how long these threads get. It is also the sort of thing that is essential to fully visualizing a nation. Without the fine details, a nation is merely a cardboard cutout with no soul.

The stated desire of that post, to get rid of the one-liner OPs, seemed okay. However, over the last couple of months, it is clear that the moderators have shown no care as to the content of the OPs. It is as if someone just does ctrl+f "in your nation" and hamhandedly locks everything that comes up.

This has torn that soul out of Factbooks and National Information, and ironically, left it full of nothing but spam. Today, the front page has a couple of region-only threads, two about military realism, and one about a national election. Only the last one is related to "national information" at all! The few VALUABLE threads still on the forum's front page are indeed "X in Your Nation" threads, only they use a title that avoids the clear and simple "in your nation" designation.

Some of them that I'm seeing today also force the OP to go to extreme lengths just to keep his thread up, such as rating nations according to the human rights index. Most OPs end up abandoning those types of rating efforts after doing just a few ratings because they're way too much work. Regular "X in Your Nation" threads do not require the OP to sign up for a *job* and therefore are far more viable. They're also more fun because when someone posts in them, they don't feel ripped off when no rating ever comes.

I urgently ask that moderation abandon this version of an American school zero-tolerance policy with great haste. Like all other zero tolerance policies, it has led to mindless machine-gun enforcement with no care for nuance or facts. It needs to go. Players should not have to go through a contest of "who can say X in Your Nation in the most creative way" when the original way is easy to understand and gets right to the point. Good threads should not be closed because the OP chose the most logical title!

I've noticed that when issues like this have come up before, there are a couple of common moderator responses. Let me rebut these in advance:

1. These threads do not belong in F7. F7 *is* spam, and one-liners are the norm. In F&NI, most people who respond to "X in Your Nation" threads will think out their answers and give at least a paragraph. Players like me and Sidhae usually write several.

2. RPing it out doesn't work. The beauty of F&NI "X in Your Nation" threads is that it's possible to go into decent detail WITHOUT committing to writing pages and pages of content. Plus, most RPs don't hit on all of the little details that are extremely interesting to post about elsewhere. "X in Your Nation" threads are the perfect bridge between the spammy one-liners of F7 and the long-term commitment of an RP. Also, RPs have to be hashed out between several players, while posting in an "X in Your Nation" thread is not done by committee. This makes "X in Your Nation" the perfect place to tell what one's nation is like without any hassle.

3. Posting in our own factbooks won't work. For one, who reads those?! Maybe a few do, but the point of posting in an open forum is to gain a wider audience - no matter what the subject. Suggestions to post to our own factbooks are as useful as telling everyone who posts a thread on General (regardless of topic) to put it on their own site instead.

Also, posting to our own factbooks eliminates another benefit of "X in Your Nation" threads because the threads give ideas about what to write into the nation's canon. Without those "idea seeds," most of the details would be overlooked because it's nearly impossible to think of everything.

That said, the original announcement did NOT seem to have the intent of eliminating all "X in Your Nation" threads, despite the awful All-X-Are-Y connotations of its title. However, the end result has been a massive, wanton slaughter of the very threads that make F&NI a great forum to post in.

I ask again that moderation get rid of this zero tolerance policy and recognize the great value of X in Your Nation threads in F&NI. I also ask that moderators realize that, while they may not have personal interest in everything from Squirrels in Your Nation (a specific example from the announcement) to Coups in Your Nation, WE PLAYERS DO and the hundreds of responses these threads get - most of them complete with full, well-thought content - show that I am not the only one who wants to see them back in action.

Thank you.

[Euroslavia]

Just making a note here that I do believe Factbooks and National Information is in need of a streamlined set of rules concerning the contents of the forum and that it can seem a bit uneven at times. This is my personal opinion.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

No, it really isn't. I think you're misreading the purpose of the 'my $thing in your nation' bit, which shouldn't be read the same as 'How do you do $thing in your nation' - which is the basis for helping generate ideas and worldbuild for some.

Church of the Exalted Spacedy Whale in your nation <-- this would be a no no. This would be a case for setting it up the same as you would an embassy, and having interested nations 'sign up' for a branch or missionaries or whatever they wanted to have from your creation. This is the sort of thing we have been clamping down on for some time. This is the basis for the rule.

What sort of maternity leave do you have in your nation? <-- this is a legitimate F&NI thread, the sort the forum was designed for originally, and the sort people post to all the time, giving them ideas for things to flesh out their factbook, maybe even rp with, etc.

A day in the life of a cab driver in your nation <-- this is the sort of thing that ought to be handled via RP, and many have chosen to do just that. They've set up a city or region or some such in which people can rp a character living in their nation. This is not the sort of thread to have in F&NI.

All this said, people should put more than a throwaway sentence into their OP. It does get ridiculously cluttered. We do get absolutely ridiculous thread topics posted now and then. And players need to watch for content and topic material as well - we've had to lock down inappropriate bits on occasion.

Hopefully that clarifies somewhat. Feel free to ask if it doesn't.

[Victorious Decepticons]

Thanks, Euro and DLN.

@DLN

Yes it is. I'm not the one misreading anything. The locks are not happening in accordance with what you said or what the sticky says. It's certain moderators who have misread the sticky and its stated intent and are locking everything that says "in your nation" regardless of quality. Please don't accuse me of misreading or misinterpreting. I don't do that, especially when I have thought about something enough to make a thread in Moderation specifically about the topic.

Yes, what ought to be going on is only the locking of threads with one-liner OPs, etc. What IS going on is the wanton locking of ALL "in your nation" threads regardless of quality or content if the OP makes the mistake of using a logical title.

Here are a few examples of perfectly-fine threads that were wantonly crushed. Be sure to note the REASON given for these locks (in the last post of each thread):

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=328089 (What is the average income in your nation?)
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=312534 (Prostitution in your nation - catch the glib closing post.)

The other day (the 17th), Transnapastain rampaged through the forum and slaughtered a lot of threads, some old and with over 20 pages of responses, for no reason given other than a dislike of the type of thread they were.

(As for what took me so long to post about it, 1) I didn't realize what a chilling effect this locking rampage would have, but it has become clear as I see nothing left in F&NI worth posting in anymore - and 2) I have RL things that I had to do, forcing more of a delay.)

I will admit that in SOME cases, the OPs in these examples are lacking. But they were taking off just fine (with only one exception), with some bringing in good responses, and the ones that didn't simply weren't given any chance to. It often takes a few posts for some of these threads to kick off properly. All of these were locked because, from all that I can see based on his/her own comments, Trans simply ctrl+f'd "in Your Nation" and then went on a locking spree. He/she didn't even bother to come up with a unique lock reason for each one (and when there was something semi-unique, it was just a variation) - which tells me that the threads were not even looked at when the "decision" was made.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=322627 (LGBT rights in your nation - locked by Transnapastain for no reason other than being "X in your Nation" according to his/her own post)
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=274199 (Public nudity in your nation - Another casualty of Transnapastain, and again, admittedly for no reason other than the type of thread)
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=327484 (Space military in your nation - same reason for lock as above two)
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=327482 (UFO religion in your nation. This one does look spammy, but since it got the same exact copy/paste reasons as the others massacred that night, I doubt it even had gotten a glance beyond its title. Otherwise, it'd say the OP was too thin rather than just a paste of it's an in-your-nation thread so locked.)

"X in your nation threads" are generally unwelcome, as these topics can easily be covered by factbooks and/or dispatches.

This is the quote from several of the threads he hit that night. It's a blatant misinterpretation of the sticky, which did NOT SAY they were "generally unwelcome" but instead gave guidelines for making a good "in your nation" thread.

Surrounding that time period, there were a few other lockings that seemed to indicate that the threads weren't even looked at, but instead, were closed for the non-crime of using the phrasing "in your nation" where it makes perfect sense to use those words and is confusing as heck without them. Some were locked without even the decency of a comment.

That spate of summary lockings is the motivation for this thread and my posts within it. When it continued on over the next few days, I knew I had to make my opinion official. This zero-tolerance locking Transnapastain and a few others are doing are destroying F&NI because the people who post the good threads are blocked from doing so.

You say that "it really isn't," apparently referring to my assertion that it IS being destroyed, but yes - it IS most certainly being destroyed. Now it is a useless forum full of region-only news, region-only map making, region recruitment spam, OOC military discussion (3 different threads), RP group recruitment spam, elections pertaining to only one nation, and other things like that. This makes it destroyed because it leaves no value to those outside of the tiny groups that are targeted by these threads.

Of the F&NI possibilities, ONLY "in your nation" threads give everybody something to say and something interesting to read. These are the ones that give people a chance to talk about their own nations even if they aren't part of some particular region, embassy program, or the like.

No, it really isn't. I think you're misreading the purpose of the 'my $thing in your nation' bit, which shouldn't be read the same as 'How do you do $thing in your nation' - which is the basis for helping generate ideas and worldbuild for some.

Church of the Exalted Spacedy Whale in your nation <-- this would be a no no. This would be a case for setting it up the same as you would an embassy, and having interested nations 'sign up' for a branch or missionaries or whatever they wanted to have from your creation. This is the sort of thing we have been clamping down on for some time. This is the basis for the rule.

What sort of maternity leave do you have in your nation? <-- this is a legitimate F&NI thread, the sort the forum was designed for originally, and the sort people post to all the time, giving them ideas for things to flesh out their factbook, maybe even rp with, etc.

A day in the life of a cab driver in your nation <-- this is the sort of thing that ought to be handled via RP, and many have chosen to do just that. They've set up a city or region or some such in which people can rp a character living in their nation. This is not the sort of thread to have in F&NI.

All this said, people should put more than a throwaway sentence into their OP. It does get ridiculously cluttered. We do get absolutely ridiculous thread topics posted now and then. And players need to watch for content and topic material as well - we've had to lock down inappropriate bits on occasion.

Hopefully that clarifies somewhat. Feel free to ask if it doesn't.

THAT'S how it SHOULD be enforced. But, as I said above and in my OP, that isn't how it IS being enforced. The ought/is difference is where the problem is, and it's not a misinterpretation on my part. The ones doing the locking are the ones who need to read what you just wrote there.

The ones doing the misinterpreting are mods who are using a nuke instead of a scalpel, and tearing the heart out of the F&NI forum. Again I say, the blanket, zero-tolerance approach needs to go! The quickie, no-read, locking of everything that has "in your nation" in its title has killed the fun of the forum already. What's the point of posting anything at all when Trans or someone else will just come by and massacre it? There is none.

As for your specific points, I generally agree - I never really got the Our Homegrown Religion In Your Nation subgenre because of course almost everyone will say "never heard of it." That, however, is just one tiny segment of "in your nation" threads.

The second point I agree on.

The third point has always been the standard and I accept that, but at the risk of diverting a bit, I wish moderation would reconsider this stance. F&NI threads of the "day in the life" version typically result in short vignettes when they manage to avoid insta-lock, and these are perfect for some light fun without the detail of an RP but with enough writing quality to bother reading the results. You post up your character and get one post back. Maybe make a response. That's it. Not everything needs to be a novel-length exposition.

Even so, my current RP is basically "life in my nation" on steroids, and I'm loving it quite well, but I still have a soft spot for the quickie versions.

But I don't miss them as much as I miss seeing a whole page of "In Your Nation" threads just waiting for me to tell how things are done in Victorious Decepticons, and despite what you've said, those threads will not exist in any form, quality or not, as long as even one moderator goes around and locks them all without regard to quality or content - and that's what has been happening. The only good threads that remain have disguised titles that just make it harder to figure out what's in the tin. Until that stops, F&NI will be useless to me and many others. (Even when I do an RP, it's with someone I met through F&NI, and has a clue about what he/she is getting into with my nation because of what I've posted there.)

Alas, I'd better get to some work that's waiting and is due in an hour~! So I will end this post for now.

[Computerised Equality]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=328089 (What is the average income in your nation?)

I'm pretty certain that even before the blanket policy came into place, threads regarding information that can be found on the front page of a nation have generally been removed.

In general, however, my experience with reading both Moderation and F&NI has been pretty similar to VD's. Quite a few threads have been closed, despite being permitted both in the sticky and DLN's guidelines.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I'm not able to look at all of your links /at this time/, but I will once I've got more free time in which to do so. In the meantime, I'll start up a discussion on the mod end of things, as we may need to look at how this is all being handled, given the concerns being voiced here - even Euro seems to agree it needs some adjusting.

I can suggest that in at least a few of the cases, going by title alone, the content may have been the original motive for locking - still, I'd have to look at them all to verify that. And if it isn't the case, it'll be one of those discussion points.

Please be patient while we take a more in-depth look at this - I may not get the discussion thread up for the other moderators until tomorrow at this rate, because I'd rather do it correctly and not rush willy nilly. The point is to have a forum where players can get and share ideas - not just stockpile throwaways. Both have been done, and it probably hasn't been as consistently enforced, given the generally problem-free nature of the forum as compared to certain others (we don't get called in to look at it nearly as often, simple as.) In any case, if the system is breaking down, that purpose isn't being fulfilled.

So. Give us a bit to take a closer look at things. In the meantime, I would encourage players who have suggestions to make them here, as has been started in rather good detail.

Thanks again, folks.

[Euroslavia]

I figured I'd drop by again and say that real life has been a bit overwhelming lately, but I will do my best to get a discussion going as soon as I can get the time for it, to see what we could do to create a better environment and more of an understanding of what the Factbooks and National Information forum is for. (Phew, long sentence). Ideally, I'd like to keep a better track of topic specifics, as we have megathreads for some. Not everything should be thrown into a megathread/combination of certain topics, but the ones that generate a lot of separate threads should be sanctioned into one. Organization of the forum could use work as well, namely the stickies.


Have a good night all.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

2. RPing it out doesn't work. The beauty of F&NI "X in Your Nation" threads is that it's possible to go into decent detail WITHOUT committing to writing pages and pages of content. Plus, most RPs don't hit on all of the little details that are extremely interesting to post about elsewhere. "X in Your Nation" threads are the perfect bridge between the spammy one-liners of F7 and the long-term commitment of an RP. Also, RPs have to be hashed out between several players, while posting in an "X in Your Nation" thread is not done by committee. This makes "X in Your Nation" the perfect place to tell what one's nation is like without any hassle.

I'd like to extend this point to the old People in your nation/our person in your nation threads (Which I like to credit myself as being responsible for ending. And Dread lady too I think she was the one that responded to my complaints long ago, and it would be up her ally, and no this isn't a diss, don't worry Dread Lady, have a hug. :Hug:)

I'd very much say the same for those threads, those threads very much add to an ease of performance and it allows both the responders and the OP in either scenario to craft a specific scenario, a mini story that can help improve their writing skills, scenario writing and decide how their nation actually acts towards specific situations.

After all how would a modern tech nation respond to a deception or a person from the future in their nation along with the norm?

It adds flavor and it just...it can't be role played out in the same vein.

If we had to make a Role play thread for it, it would likely be limited to a specific tech range, it would probably include less people, less specific instances, etc.

Those threads were meant for quick easy answers to a scenario.

I think I said it once, but if that, as well as other stuff still won't go to FB&NI, can Moderation at least consider a new forum in the RP section or a new sub forum in NS or II?

Put all the Your/our citizen in our/your nation threads? Nation trivia and guessing, and x in your nation threads there?

Because all it does is limit our expression.

I mean I know very well that I would love to do that stuff again without moderation looking my way because it will allow me to flesh out my universe and my story more, without having to dedicate it to a RP that would have to make too much to establish a preliminary setting.

I mean...its the difference between an insertion fic, and a AU, and in this case the insertion takes more time to develop and explain, while the AU is hand waved and can be done in a paragraph or two.

Sorry for high jacking your thread OP, I thought it was relevant enough.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Has not been forgotten, am finishing up a post for the mod team as this is being updated.