Discussion: Have the mods gone far enough?

[Norstal]

DEAT a troll, and its gone for a few minutes. DEAT&ban a troll, and its gone for a while.

Yeah, I really think the mods are overly keen on DEATs for NSG punishments. Many (if not most) Generalites don't play NS and the loss of a nation doesn't really mean too much as a result... especially if they've not been around very long and are trollish.

Even DOS is not that effective. UnhealthyTruthSeeker was able to bypass his DOS multiple times, with Four-Side-Triangles being his last one. There's also that one creepy guy who masqueraded as a girl in the TET thread in NSG. I'm hoping those are just outliers, but I don't even know anymore.

[Forsher]

Yeah, I really think the mods are overly keen on DEATs for NSG punishments. Many (if not most) Generalites don't play NS and the loss of a nation doesn't really mean too much as a result... especially if they've not been around very long and are trollish.

Even DOS is not that effective. UnhealthyTruthSeeker was able to bypass his DOS multiple times, with Four-Side-Triangles being his last one. There's also that one creepy guy who masqueraded as a girl in the TET thread in NSG. I'm hoping those are just outliers, but I don't even know anymore.

Conformal Veal Theory/CVT Temp was also FST. I think he was an exception... and too inclined to want to be nefarious to manage another FST-esque return.

[Frisbeeteria]

I think that DEATs usually come with bans, but I could be wrong.

They don't usually, and that's perhaps something worth exploring in greater depth. The problem is that there isn't an easy mechanical way to do that. The forum software is geared towards "forum accounts", and the game is geared towards "nations". Trying to tie either of those to a clearer player identification isn't all that easy. And no, don't suggest IP addresses - they're almost useless these days, thanks to multiple devices and roaming profiles.

One way to combat that would be to create a Master Account, perhaps with a credit card charge of a buck or so. It would include your real name that matched the credit card, and your puppets would all be created under this master. That would eliminate most if not all of the adbots, trolls, and people who demanded anonymity. Of course, it would also eliminate most teenagers, classroom regions, and people who refused to pay for a "free game". And ... we'd have to completely redesign the game from the ground up. So, minor problems with that approach.

As long as we allow access to the lot of you without demanding personal identifiable information, we're going to have people who abuse that trust. I just don't see a way around it.

[Galloism]

I think that DEATs usually come with bans, but I could be wrong.

They don't usually, and that's perhaps something worth exploring in greater depth. The problem is that there isn't an easy mechanical way to do that. The forum software is geared towards "forum accounts", and the game is geared towards "nations". Trying to tie either of those to a clearer player identification isn't all that easy. And no, don't suggest IP addresses - they're almost useless these days, thanks to multiple devices and roaming profiles.

One way to combat that would be to create a Master Account, perhaps with a credit card charge of a buck or so. It would include your real name that matched the credit card, and your puppets would all be created under this master. That would eliminate most if not all of the adbots, trolls, and people who demanded anonymity. Of course, it would also eliminate most teenagers, classroom regions, and people who refused to pay for a "free game". And ... we'd have to completely redesign the game from the ground up. So, minor problems with that approach.

As long as we allow access to the lot of you without demanding personal identifiable information, we're going to have people who abuse that trust. I just don't see a way around it.

We could do address verification. We have to type in a physical address, and max hires a 6'4" guy named Wally who always carries a baseball bat to personally fly around to verify them, with a stern reminder as to the rules and the consequences for breaking them.

[Frisbeeteria]

max hires a 6'4" guy named Wally who always carries a baseball bat to personally fly around to verify them, with a stern reminder as to the rules and the consequences for breaking them.

That's not The Most Glorious Hack's real name, and his wife has taken exception to him carrying around a baseball bat. Otherwise, spot on.

[Reploid Productions]

Besides, we've been trying to talk the boss into hiring ninja teams since forever as is!

[Nazi Flower Power]

So what would be a desirable way to land harder on things, while still maintaining the flexibility necessary? Do away with slap-on-the-wrist unofficial warnings and cautions in favor of always going for *** the ominous red text? *** Default to 1-day bans on first offenses/greater use of short-term bans lower on the punishment ladder? These are the sorts of things that will give us helpful feedback. For instance, I would be okay skipping the unofficial cautions in favor of going straight to the official warning; unofficials largely serve the purpose of simply building up a picture of the user's habits, but the redtext could serve in that role as well. Heck, I'd even be down with more liberal use of short term 1-day bans, though I imagine people would still be unhappy whenever a bad day or flash of temper lands them on the receiving end of one.

I would prefer you don't hand out 1 day bans willy-nilly. Handing out more official warnings rather than knock-it-offs would be OK. Maybe more less-than-a-day bans if it looks like a usually-good poster has just lost their temper. A couple of hours is enough for someone to regain their composure without the nuisance of being banned for a whole day.

[The Batorys]

DEAT a troll, and its gone for a few minutes. DEAT&ban a troll, and its gone for a while.

Yeah, I really think the mods are overly keen on DEATs for NSG punishments. Many (if not most) Generalites don't play NS and the loss of a nation doesn't really mean too much as a result... especially if they've not been around very long and are trollish.

Indeed. A DEAT, for a troll, is far less severe a punishment than a ban. Since people who are here to troll aren't (usually) particularly attached to their nations/names, deleting their account isn't really much more than a warning.

[The Batorys]

Yeah, I really think the mods are overly keen on DEATs for NSG punishments. Many (if not most) Generalites don't play NS and the loss of a nation doesn't really mean too much as a result... especially if they've not been around very long and are trollish.

Even DOS is not that effective. UnhealthyTruthSeeker was able to bypass his DOS multiple times, with Four-Side-Triangles being his last one. There's also that one creepy guy who masqueraded as a girl in the TET thread in NSG. I'm hoping those are just outliers, but I don't even know anymore.

UnhealthyTruthSeeker and Four-Sided-Triangles were the same person?

Whoa.

Mind = blown.

Suddenly everything makes sense.

[Forsher]

Even DOS is not that effective. UnhealthyTruthSeeker was able to bypass his DOS multiple times, with Four-Side-Triangles being his last one. There's also that one creepy guy who masqueraded as a girl in the TET thread in NSG. I'm hoping those are just outliers, but I don't even know anymore.

UnhealthyTruthSeeker and Four-Sided-Triangles were the same person?

Whoa.

Mind = blown.

Suddenly everything makes sense.

He's been back a few times. CVT Temp's the only one that stuck around for more than a few days before hammer time. In hindsight, he's a very good illustration of why NS doesn't have name and shame lists... a) new names, b) seems to revel in the infamy.

[The Batorys]

I think that DEATs usually come with bans, but I could be wrong.

They don't usually, and that's perhaps something worth exploring in greater depth. The problem is that there isn't an easy mechanical way to do that. The forum software is geared towards "forum accounts", and the game is geared towards "nations". Trying to tie either of those to a clearer player identification isn't all that easy. And no, don't suggest IP addresses - they're almost useless these days, thanks to multiple devices and roaming profiles.

One way to combat that would be to create a Master Account, perhaps with a credit card charge of a buck or so. It would include your real name that matched the credit card, and your puppets would all be created under this master. That would eliminate most if not all of the adbots, trolls, and people who demanded anonymity. Of course, it would also eliminate most teenagers, classroom regions, and people who refused to pay for a "free game". And ... we'd have to completely redesign the game from the ground up. So, minor problems with that approach.

As long as we allow access to the lot of you without demanding personal identifiable information, we're going to have people who abuse that trust. I just don't see a way around it.

Don't you have to have an email registered to post on the forums?

Maybe if, upon DEAT, a message was sent to the email saying "Your nation has been deleted and you are banned from using the forum for one [time period]. If at any time it becomes clear that you have attempted to past past ban, any other nations you have will be deleted and you will be considered DOS. Thank you and have a good day."

Or something like that.

Then again this might be just as technically difficult.

[The Blaatschapen]

They don't usually, and that's perhaps something worth exploring in greater depth. The problem is that there isn't an easy mechanical way to do that. The forum software is geared towards "forum accounts", and the game is geared towards "nations". Trying to tie either of those to a clearer player identification isn't all that easy. And no, don't suggest IP addresses - they're almost useless these days, thanks to multiple devices and roaming profiles.

One way to combat that would be to create a Master Account, perhaps with a credit card charge of a buck or so. It would include your real name that matched the credit card, and your puppets would all be created under this master. That would eliminate most if not all of the adbots, trolls, and people who demanded anonymity. Of course, it would also eliminate most teenagers, classroom regions, and people who refused to pay for a "free game". And ... we'd have to completely redesign the game from the ground up. So, minor problems with that approach.

As long as we allow access to the lot of you without demanding personal identifiable information, we're going to have people who abuse that trust. I just don't see a way around it.

Don't you have to have an email registered to post on the forums?

Maybe if, upon DEAT, a message was sent to the email saying "Your nation has been deleted and you are banned from using the forum for one [time period]. If at any time it becomes clear that you have attempted to past past ban, any other nations you have will be deleted and you will be considered DOS. Thank you and have a good day."

Or something like that.

Then again this might be just as technically difficult.

An email address is currently not needed to access the forums. And hence not every nation that uses the forum has one attached to it. So sending an email is not an option, unfortunately

[The Batorys]

Don't you have to have an email registered to post on the forums?

Maybe if, upon DEAT, a message was sent to the email saying "Your nation has been deleted and you are banned from using the forum for one [time period]. If at any time it becomes clear that you have attempted to past past ban, any other nations you have will be deleted and you will be considered DOS. Thank you and have a good day."

Or something like that.

Then again this might be just as technically difficult.

An email address is currently not needed to access the forums. And hence not every nation that uses the forum has one attached to it. So sending an email is not an option, unfortunately

Really? Weird. I seem to recall needing to provide an email address for forum access at some point, but it's been a long, long time, so my memory is probably faulty in that regard.

[Nazi Flower Power]

An email address is currently not needed to access the forums. And hence not every nation that uses the forum has one attached to it. So sending an email is not an option, unfortunately

Really? Weird. I seem to recall needing to provide an email address for forum access at some point, but it's been a long, long time, so my memory is probably faulty in that regard.

Maybe you are thinking of joining the WA or something?

[The Batorys]

Really? Weird. I seem to recall needing to provide an email address for forum access at some point, but it's been a long, long time, so my memory is probably faulty in that regard.

Maybe you are thinking of joining the WA or something?

Might be, but I've never had this nation in the UN.

[The Blaatschapen]

An email address is currently not needed to access the forums. And hence not every nation that uses the forum has one attached to it. So sending an email is not an option, unfortunately

Really? Weird. I seem to recall needing to provide an email address for forum access at some point, but it's been a long, long time, so my memory is probably faulty in that regard.

It was needed during the Jolt era IIRC.

But that's a long time ago.

[Grenartia]

Really? Weird. I seem to recall needing to provide an email address for forum access at some point, but it's been a long, long time, so my memory is probably faulty in that regard.

It was needed during the Jolt era IIRC.

But that's a long time ago.

Is there any way to reinstitute that policy?

[Fartsniffage]

I think that DEATs usually come with bans, but I could be wrong.

They don't usually, and that's perhaps something worth exploring in greater depth. The problem is that there isn't an easy mechanical way to do that. The forum software is geared towards "forum accounts", and the game is geared towards "nations". Trying to tie either of those to a clearer player identification isn't all that easy. And no, don't suggest IP addresses - they're almost useless these days, thanks to multiple devices and roaming profiles.

One way to combat that would be to create a Master Account, perhaps with a credit card charge of a buck or so. It would include your real name that matched the credit card, and your puppets would all be created under this master. That would eliminate most if not all of the adbots, trolls, and people who demanded anonymity. Of course, it would also eliminate most teenagers, classroom regions, and people who refused to pay for a "free game". And ... we'd have to completely redesign the game from the ground up. So, minor problems with that approach.

As long as we allow access to the lot of you without demanding personal identifiable information, we're going to have people who abuse that trust. I just don't see a way around it.

Thing is, you have all of these issues enforcing DOS's, and yet you still use it as a punishment.

[Norstal]

Gotta say, the recent bans in NSG means the mods are stepping up, which I appreciate. I do hope this isn't just a temporary thing.

[Frisbeeteria]

Don't you have to have an email registered to post on the forums?

Unfortunately, it's just as easy to use a throwaway email account as it is to have a variable IP address. Requiring an email before posting would slow a dedicated troll by perhaps 30 seconds. If they knew about the rule in advance, 5 seconds. Even if we required everyone to use a 'reputable' email provider like Gmail or forced them to use Facebook's login verification system, it's still easy to bypass by making multiple accounts. Believe me, we've looked at these things, and they're not a panacea.

Thing is, you have all of these issues enforcing DOS's, and yet you still use it as a punishment.

We wouldn't call it "Delete On Sight" if our toolbox allowed us to ban them outright. We'd just go with the straight up ban from the start. As it is, all we can do is kill their nations and block what we can, when we can. I'd love to have RSP/IP (Remote Strangling Protocol over IP) for some of our more persistent assholes, but that technology is still years away. Seriously, short of sending someone to their house and smashing their keyboard hands with a hammer, somebody who wants to be an ass on the internet can continue to be an ass on the internet. If you've got better ideas, I'm all ears.

[Aksun]

I don't know if this has been suggested yet... What if we restrict forum posting from new nations for about a month or so? It would eliminate the ass problem by preventing all but the most die hard troll.

[Frisbeeteria]

I don't know if this has been suggested yet

It's been suggested. Tell me, would you hang around a game where you weren't allowed to participate for the first month? It's kinda like hiring a pest control company to get rid of termites, and they burn the house down. Yay, no termites! Not exactly an ideal solution.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

In theory, couldn't we use the same technology that automatically detects WA multis to detect when a banned user creates another account? Or at least a slightly modified version since it's the same concept? Granted, that technology isn't perfect either, but it's better than nothing.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Our tools are varied and ever-evolving. And I really can't say anything more than that, lest we inadvertently give suggestions to those who would use the information to attempt to get around things.

[Katganistan]

Besides, we've been trying to talk the boss into hiring ninja teams since forever as is!

Only because the attack llamas weren't worth spit.