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[Discussion] Regarding Shared Accounts

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7267
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:07 pm

Chester Pearson wrote:This is hilarious. I feel for Anders, being hosed over by a mod, as I have had a similar experience. Don't expect any kind of apology out of this though. Whilst I believe Fris was trying to do the right thing, it seems as though the proverbial ball was dropped pretty hard here....

(P.S. I am being nice here, and not going off on the rant that I have been saving up, for when moderation fucks up again....)


You could, you know, discuss this other precedent, and what you'd like to see occur, rather than just being negative, generalizing the mods as a mistake waiting to happen, and basically saying we should be happy you're not saying something worse. For example, you could say something like "an official ruling that agree with this ruling could lead to future messy situations where mods are forced to decide on who truly "owns" the nation, if say two friends who've shared it for a while fight and both claim ownership, and in my opinion only a few high-profile cases could ever be ruled upon, making it a potentially very unfair policy where only the actions done for political reasons in a political game go punished, and countless other cases never make it past a GHR." That's a polite was to express concern, man, or even just "I think the ruling was a poor one in light of the public ambiguity - even if the official ruling agrees, I think his warnings should be removed due to the fact that as far as the public could tell this was a legal action at the time" - all being nasty and attacking does is breed hostility right back, which no one wants. It's better not to separate them as some evil mod upper class - they're still players like us, and more importantly, people, like us. People make judgement calls, people make mistakes, but no one is out to hose anyone over, and they're not incompetent. For every one highly controversial possibly rash ruling, dozens upon dozens upon dozens of perfectly good ones go by - we just don;t pay attention to those, do we? You take a large enough sample, and a few mistakes happen. Some, like this, make a big impact. But at the end of the day, it was still someone trying to do their (volunteer) job to the best of their ability, and it's always that was, for every single ruling. If you go and generalize them as a nasty bunch, unfair, corrupt, and unlikely to ever offer an apology, they might just fall into the habit of generalizing you as a mean, mod-hating player that doesn't deserve one. If it was you,, if you'd made what might be a mistake, you wouldn't want people sitting there going "oh look, he fucked up again. watch me, I might blow up! They're never going to apologize for messing up..." would you?
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.


User avatar
Rifty
Minister
 
Posts: 2269
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rifty » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:44 am

Katganistan wrote:Just to keep everyone updated: this has not been put on a back burner.

Thank you for keeping us posted - I'm sure i speak for us all when I say these updates on the moderation teams part is greatly appreciated. :hug:
Last edited by Rifty on Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
✥ Positions ✥
Merryman of UDL
Riksdagsledamöter of Balder
Legionnaire and Councilor of Osiris
Chancellor of Madrigal
Prophet Sidney Rozeck

My time on NS

------------------------------✥ ✥ Independent ✥ ✥------------------------------

General response to stupid comments

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7267
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:12 pm

Yes, agreed. Thanks for the update :)
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Anders Blakewood
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 140
Founded: Oct 25, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Anders Blakewood » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:02 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Yes, agreed. Thanks for the update :)

Submitted my appeal, glad they're working fairly hard on this. Mods deserve some real payment :P

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7267
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:03 pm

Anders Blakewood wrote:
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Yes, agreed. Thanks for the update :)

Submitted my appeal, glad they're working fairly hard on this. Mods deserve some real payment :P


Better late than never :P

Got anything to add here, Anders?
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Anders Blakewood
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 140
Founded: Oct 25, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Anders Blakewood » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:19 pm

Nothing I haven't said in the appeal or said before, but that regardless of the decision about the shared founder being given to Nephmir, the warnings on all of my nations, and my old WA nation being deleted, there needs to be some sort of semi-concrete resource that players can look at regarding these issues. My action was entirely legal from how I and others understand the posted rules, if the decision remains as it was made, then rules need to be edited to reflect that change. I'm just glad my first nation didn't have WA at the time that the WA nation was deleted, or that any other nation I have that I like wasn't deleted. If enough people can be torn, undecided, or align themselves on the assumption that this was legal and remains to be allowed, and it's decided that it wasn't, there needs to be a change in listed rules or in the FAQ to prevent others from doing this.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but if something has multiple players and mods considering it, wording could be edited to make this clearer. That being said, I still hope my appeal is accepted.

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:33 pm

I'm glad you submitted an appeal. :)

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7267
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:52 pm

All this polite discussion and usage of proper channels of communication, even on a controversial issue.... what is this, the Twilight Zone? :P
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 27796
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Capitalizt

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:38 pm

Bumping this for a couple of reasons:

  • As the original ruling mod, I've agreed with most of the other mods that I didn't follow shared nation precedent. As such the warnings and deletion related to the original ruling will be reversed, if they haven't already. I'm not involved in the ruling or the outcome per our appeals process, but we're in agreement.
  • There's a clear problem with the OSRS and the FAQ, as we have a total of three rules that state that nation theft is illegal, and one rule stating that we ignore theft for shared nations. That language needs to be clarified, and we're discussing it. The end language should follow the existing precedent that taking a shared nation without permission of the other "owners" is legal.
  • The disposition of the "stolen" nation in this case hasn't been decided. The Appeals Judge is seeking input from the affected player(s), and we haven't heard back yet.

To sum up, I made a mistake, and I apologize to everyone who got screwed up by that decision. The rest is just bookkeeping.

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:45 pm

I'd like to thank the moderation team for dealing with this, and in a very prompt manner. Thanks also for clearing up the rules around this somewhat vague area.

User avatar
Rifty
Minister
 
Posts: 2269
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rifty » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:49 pm

Thank you for getting back to us and admitting a mistake. I think it's times like this we realize you guys aren't robots :P

I'm assuming it'd be too much to ask to kick out Nephmir and give it back? Right? xD
Last edited by Rifty on Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
✥ Positions ✥
Merryman of UDL
Riksdagsledamöter of Balder
Legionnaire and Councilor of Osiris
Chancellor of Madrigal
Prophet Sidney Rozeck

My time on NS

------------------------------✥ ✥ Independent ✥ ✥------------------------------

General response to stupid comments

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7267
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:57 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:Bumping this for a couple of reasons:

  • As the original ruling mod, I've agreed with most of the other mods that I didn't follow shared nation precedent. As such the warnings and deletion related to the original ruling will be reversed, if they haven't already. I'm not involved in the ruling or the outcome per our appeals process, but we're in agreement.
  • There's a clear problem with the OSRS and the FAQ, as we have a total of three rules that state that nation theft is illegal, and one rule stating that we ignore theft for shared nations. That language needs to be clarified, and we're discussing it. The end language should follow the existing precedent that taking a shared nation without permission of the other "owners" is legal.
  • The disposition of the "stolen" nation in this case hasn't been decided. The Appeals Judge is seeking input from the affected player(s), and we haven't heard back yet.

To sum up, I made a mistake, and I apologize to everyone who got screwed up by that decision. The rest is just bookkeeping.


All seems reasonable to me. So the decision is leaning towards this overall being legal, if frowned upon?

And honestly, I can see it as perfectly reasonable if it comes out to "Sorry, but we're not going to re-do it." I'm not Anders, so I can't say whether he'd even want it at this point, but I can entirely understand if the decisions is "No, we're not going to give it back to Anders at this point, it was wrong, but it's done now, and that'd just be mean at this point."

Thank you for the apology.

Let me end with, I'm very happy with how this entire thing has been handled so far, and think it really demonstrates how the appeals process can work cleanly and efficiently, with a minimum of angst, so long as everyone stays calm and reasonable. Thank you all for that.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Anders Blakewood
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 140
Founded: Oct 25, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Anders Blakewood » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:15 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:Bumping this for a couple of reasons:

  • As the original ruling mod, I've agreed with most of the other mods that I didn't follow shared nation precedent. As such the warnings and deletion related to the original ruling will be reversed, if they haven't already. I'm not involved in the ruling or the outcome per our appeals process, but we're in agreement.
  • There's a clear problem with the OSRS and the FAQ, as we have a total of three rules that state that nation theft is illegal, and one rule stating that we ignore theft for shared nations. That language needs to be clarified, and we're discussing it. The end language should follow the existing precedent that taking a shared nation without permission of the other "owners" is legal.
  • The disposition of the "stolen" nation in this case hasn't been decided. The Appeals Judge is seeking input from the affected player(s), and we haven't heard back yet.

To sum up, I made a mistake, and I apologize to everyone who got screwed up by that decision. The rest is just bookkeeping.


I'd like to thank you and everyone for spending so much time on this, if there's anything that's needed from me from the Appeals Judge should I wait for a TG?

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 27796
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Capitalizt

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:19 pm

Anders Blakewood wrote: if there's anything that's needed from me from the Appeals Judge should I wait for a TG?

Yep. I think everyone but me and Nathi is out buying Christmas presents or lighting Hanukkah candles or something, so be patient if this drags a bit over the holiday season.

User avatar
Anders Blakewood
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 140
Founded: Oct 25, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Anders Blakewood » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:24 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Anders Blakewood wrote: if there's anything that's needed from me from the Appeals Judge should I wait for a TG?

Yep. I think everyone but me and Nathi is out buying Christmas presents or lighting Hanukkah candles or something, so be patient if this drags a bit over the holiday season.


It's fine! I need to attend to my Festivus pole....

User avatar
Sedgistan
Site Director
 
Posts: 35473
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:20 am

Posting here to confirm that the appeal has been granted, the warnings rescinded, the deleted nation restored, and that ownership of the nation 'The Eternal Knights' has been returned to Anders Blakewood.

User avatar
Aksun
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1046
Founded: Sep 07, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Aksun » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:27 am

Will there be a rule change now that this has been decided?

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 27796
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Capitalizt

Postby Frisbeeteria » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:30 am

Aksun wrote:Will there be a rule change now that this has been decided?

There won't be a rule "change", because (except for this time) the rulings on shared accounts have been the same for a while. There will be some changes made to the language in the OSRS, and possibly the FAQ. I'm sure we'll post the changed & original versions here as well so you can see the difference.

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7267
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:01 pm

Sedgistan wrote:Posting here to confirm that the appeal has been granted, the warnings rescinded, the deleted nation restored, and that ownership of the nation 'The Eternal Knights' has been returned to Anders Blakewood.


I'm actually slightly surprised by this :P Well, color it a holiday miracle. One last time, ALL the thanks for how this has been handled.

Let's just hope this doen't add to the calls of "Blah blah Raider Bias!!" xD

Happy Holidays~

- Ever-Wandering Souls
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.


User avatar
SD Posts It All
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Dec 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby SD Posts It All » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:00 pm

Thank Mods for your openness in all this.

Happy Holidays!

User avatar
The Risen Jaguar Warriors
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1446
Founded: Apr 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Risen Jaguar Warriors » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:26 pm

Thus, the Mods are NOT your parents...

But are instead...

Your transparents...
⇦ Keep to the left
100% Raiderist Сюнна 20% Defenderist

My puppet-juggling skills are like a drinking straw... meaning they suck...
I am a girl

User avatar
Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:48 pm

Thanks mods for doing a great job.

Happy holidays.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

User avatar
The Blaatschapen
Technical Moderator
 
Posts: 63227
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:36 am

The Risen Jaguar Warriors wrote:Thus, the Mods are NOT your parents...

But are instead...

Your transparents...


Some are cisparents...
The Blaatschapen should resign

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