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PASSWORD

[Discussion] Regarding Shared Accounts

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Consular
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[Discussion] Regarding Shared Accounts

Postby Consular » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:56 pm

So, as some may or may not be aware, the nation The Eternal Knights was recently seized by a high ranking member of the region The Eternal Knights, and used to enact a coup of the region it had founder privileges over. The nation was, to my knowledge, shared between multiple persons, and not the personal nation per se of any of them. The person who ultimately couped the nation, changing the password etc, was to my knowledge freely given access to the nation. As in the password was not obtained via hacking or deception.

Apparently this nation has been subsequently taken over by moderators, removed from the control of the individual who enacted the coup, and returned presumably to its original owner. Text of mod telegram as follows:

"Your coup of nation the_eternal_knights has been reversed, and it cost you your current WA nation, plus warnings on all your other nations. Note that the FAQ is quite clear about what happens to players who steal other people's nations. The fact that it was a shared nation and no hacking was involved is irrelevant. Think twice before trying something like this again, as it would most likely cost you your remaining nations."

Screenshot of quoted mod telegram: https://i.imgur.com/EHnKDjw.png

Now, this struck me as very odd. In fact it struck me as a complete reversal of what I believed to be mod policy in this area, so I'd very much appreciate clarification of the rules on the risks of nation sharing, and perhaps an explanation as to why the approach to this has changed

Despite the telegram claiming otherwise, the FAQ is actually not very helpful here. It reads as follows:

"It is against the rules to hijack someone else's nation, and if we see someone do it, we'll ban them. If we don't see it happen, though, and someone changes your password and e-mail address, I'm afraid you're on your own. As far as the game is concerned, your government has been overthrown in a coup."

Which is rather vague. More importantly, if we have a look at the actual rules Regarding Shared Accounts, they make it very very clear that the moderators will in fact NOT step in if a fellow accessor revokes your access to a shared nation. Specific text as follows:

"Nation theft - Fact is, the more people have access to a nation, the less secure it is. If one person hijacks that shared account, there will be nothing moderation can do to help recover it."

As you can see, this completely contradicts what was said in the mod telegram quoted above. So, has moderation's stance changed on this issue, if so, then why, and why were the players apparently not informed? I would also say that, for the sake of legality, it seems to me the action taken against the individual who couped the specific nation in this instance should have the nation returned to him. That is to say, the mod decision should really be reversed, since at the time he did the act in question it was, according to the available information on the rules, entirely legal. To uphold the decision is effectively stating the rules can be changed on the fly and retroactively applied to acts that were previously legal, allowing punishment of players for actions that didn't at the time break the rules, which doesn't seem right at all to me.

As a disclaimer I am not the individual who enacted the coup and received this telegram. I am however an interested third party who finds this turn of events rather concerning.

TL;DR: Moderator taking action completely contrary to the publicised rules.
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: title change

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High Lord Seven Deaths
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Postby High Lord Seven Deaths » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:02 pm

Definitely think that the warnings against the individual should be removed, and his WA nation restored. Even if the mods have chosen to reverse their stance and return the nation to someone else, why should he receive punishment for something that was, according to the public rules, entirely legal. Anything less is allowing us to be punished for rules that don't seem to exist? How is that fair?

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:22 pm

Hi there. I'm Frisbeeteria, the Senior Game Moderator in question who handled this case. Like all moderator decisions, this one is open to appeal by the affected parties via the Getting Help system. Please note that we're not accepting third party appeals.

I'll note that we have apparently contradictory rules concerning this. The FAQ is, in my opinion, very clear about the penalties of nation theft. It's even listed twice.
FAQ Etiquette wrote:Can I steal another player's nation?

No. This is fraudulent behavior and breaches the site's terms & conditions. The same applies to any attempt to impersonate another player, including attempting to hack nation or region passwords.
FAQ Technical wrote:Someone has taken control of my nation!

It is against the rules to hijack someone else's nation, and if we see someone do it, we'll ban them. If we don't see it happen, though, and someone changes your password and e-mail address, I'm afraid you're on your own. As far as the game is concerned, your government has been overthrown in a coup.

In this instance, we had a conflict between the rules that have been in place for over a decade, versus a pinned post that has been in place for a few months. Based on the Getting Help request received and the extraordinarily clear evidence trail, I went with the long-standing rule.

I recognize that this is likely to provoke controvery, and I'll lay out my train of evidence to the other mods and admins if an appeal is filed. We'll probably also want to revisit the pinned topic or the FAQ, depending on the outcome. I'm not going to venture any guesses at this time as to the outcome of such discussions.

In the meantime, I'll change this topic title to make it clear it's a discussion, and you folks can argue about it.

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High Lord Seven Deaths
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Postby High Lord Seven Deaths » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:27 pm

Could you clear up the difference between "another person's nation" which clearly indicates the nation does not belong to you and "shared nation" which indicates you have partial stake in it. And if there's a conflict between long standing rules and new rules, perhaps the new rules should be taken down to clear things up.

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Postby Emperor Septim » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:36 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:Hi there. I'm Frisbeeteria, the Senior Game Moderator in question who handled this case. Like all moderator decisions, this one is open to appeal by the affected parties via the Getting Help system. Please note that we're not accepting third party appeals.

I'll note that we have apparently contradictory rules concerning this. The FAQ is, in my opinion, very clear about the penalties of nation theft. It's even listed twice.
FAQ Etiquette wrote:Can I steal another player's nation?

No. This is fraudulent behavior and breaches the site's terms & conditions. The same applies to any attempt to impersonate another player, including attempting to hack nation or region passwords.
FAQ Technical wrote:Someone has taken control of my nation!

It is against the rules to hijack someone else's nation, and if we see someone do it, we'll ban them. If we don't see it happen, though, and someone changes your password and e-mail address, I'm afraid you're on your own. As far as the game is concerned, your government has been overthrown in a coup.

In this instance, we had a conflict between the rules that have been in place for over a decade, versus a pinned post that has been in place for a few months. Based on the Getting Help request received and the extraordinarily clear evidence trail, I went with the long-standing rule.

I recognize that this is likely to provoke controvery, and I'll lay out my train of evidence to the other mods and admins if an appeal is filed. We'll probably also want to revisit the pinned topic or the FAQ, depending on the outcome. I'm not going to venture any guesses at this time as to the outcome of such discussions.

In the meantime, I'll change this topic title to make it clear it's a discussion, and you folks can argue about it.


Definition of Hijack: To take control of (an aircraft) by force. Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hijack

By that definition of the word hijack the nation wasn't hijacked, it was given. To me Nephmir willingly took the risk and even said himself that he was saying "fuck it". He clearly didn't care, he clearly intended to give the individual in question access to this nation, and if memory serves, he claims that he was aware of what the end result of his actions were going to be. So in all fairness, this ENTIRE thing needs to be reversed. But if it isn't, then at the very least he needs to be readmitted into the WA because I mean, I fail to see how that solves ANYTHING.

Also in my experience on various websites, posted rules take precedence over a FAQ. In fact the FAQ usually depends on what the rules say, not the other way around.

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Last edited by Emperor Septim on Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Consular
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Postby Consular » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:40 pm

Thanks for replying Fris.

I, however, do completely disagree about the FAQ being clear on this issue.

Can I steal another player's nation?

No. This is fraudulent behavior and breaches the site's terms & conditions. The same applies to any attempt to impersonate another player, including attempting to hack nation or region passwords.


This to me seems to apply to logging into another's nation through illicit means. It does not directly address the issue of nation sharing. It also appears to be grounded in the reasoning the fraudulent behaviour is bad. I would argue there has been no fraud here - the password to the nation was not obtained illicitly or under false pretense. It was given freely. What there has been obviously is a massive betrayal of trust, but that up until now has not been actionable to my knowledge. Further, how can you "steal" a nation that is yours? Once a nation becomes shared, is it not effectively owned by all those sharing it? The nation in this case was a puppet region founder, not anyone's personal nation.

Someone has taken control of my nation!

It is against the rules to hijack someone else's nation, and if we see someone do it, we'll ban them. If we don't see it happen, though, and someone changes your password and e-mail address, I'm afraid you're on your own. As far as the game is concerned, your government has been overthrown in a coup.


What does this even mean? If you see it happen, as opposed to if you don't see it happen? I'll presume it relates to how obvious the trail of evidence is, but that's really just a judgement call. The part where it mentions if your email is changed there is nothing mods can do seems particularly relevant here, yes?

As for the FAQ taking precedence. Firstly, the FAQ is I believe very general on this issue, while the section quoted from the rules in the forums are very clear and very specific. "Generalia Specialibus" - rules specific to the case should take precedence over general blanket rules. Further, I would think a post specifically on the rules surrounding this, in a rules related forum, should take precedence over a FAQ designed to provide very general oversight. As for the age of the FAQ, if anything it being older makes it less legitimate, as it is perhaps outdated to the technical issues of the times, while the newer rules more accurately reflect the situation.

I also suspect if we look hard we'll find recent cases where this exact thing has happened, but the opposite moderation decision was reached.

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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:41 pm

TO summarize my points on this-

-The account was clear stated to the public to be shared between the two for months before this
Post on it - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=314829&p=22243811#p22243586
"The King and Bishop have access to the regional founder account and TEK forum admin at all times, and are free to speak on behalf of the region through the founder account."
.... and the WFE archeive from that time period naming Anders as Bishop and therefore by that forum post having founder access


-A much more destructive and malicious act, following the purposeful deceit to gain access to a founder account, that receive much public outcry and likely a few GHR's (though I can't confirm that obviously) went unpunished entirely
"Rifty/Fest's takeover of GDU was a lot dirtier than that, and just as well published, but received no more than public scorn, and no modly correction to the blatant statement made by players that deceiving a founder into sharing a password, then wrecking the place, was not against the rule. There, they infiltrated with the sole purpose of gaining access to the founder...."


-Over a month and a half after that incident, the Rules regard Shared accounts was published, considered by some in the Gameplay side of the game to be in part stemming from that exact incident, which stated clearly (as opposed to the slightly ambiguous terms of "hacking" and "stealing" in regards to intentional sharing) "Nation theft - Fact is, the more people have access to a nation, the less secure it is. If one person hijacks that shared account, there will be nothing moderation can do to help recover it." This was posted by Senior Game Mod Katganistan, and considered by many of my compatriots to be the most current and clear ruling on the matter
http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=308885


Now, to discuss - Besides the comparing of rulings which leads me to say things along the lines of "why should a decidedly constructive coup be far worse punished by an intentionally destructive one," since ideally rules are applied without the bias of intention behind rulebreaking, I believe that this ruling was a poor, if well-intentioned one. The most recent public statement on the general matter, following after a public controversy on a specific instance of the same matter, seems to have all intents and purposes made legal, if discouraged, the actions undertaken in this situation. Looking at available public information, a reasonable player would likely draw the conclusion that the action of taking over a founder account one was given access to and locking the other player out was discouraged and frowned upon by both the mods and the general community, but by the rules themselves, legal. While the reasoning behind the ruling given makes sense, and is based on an earlier, but more general precedent, it also blatantly contradicts the statement that the mods cannot do anything about it if you share an account with someone and they lock you out of it. I'm not going to judge on which rule should be changed, that's the mod's job not mine. What I would like to see is a removal of this action, as it was made in a time with at best, ambiguous, and at worse, contradictory rules in place, and without undue malice, followed by a clear and public confirmation of the correct and final ruling, followed then by removal of ambiguity in the FAQ/contradiction in the RRSA, to clarify in all future cases whether or not this is by the rules of the site, allowed.
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The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
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The color or what?..

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Postby Ikania » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:45 pm

Why did the mods restore power in TEK but not in Khora? Our region was destroyed by a coup from the inside but they basically said 'sorry, nothing we can do'.

The Founder account was deleted later anyway because of it's link with Thafoo, but that was a long time after our region collapsed, when it could have reached its great potential... if we stopped bickering over the CoK, that is.
Last edited by Ikania on Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:48 pm

Consular wrote:I also suspect if we look hard we'll find recent cases where this exact thing has happened, but the opposite moderation decision was reached.


Aaaand there we go, two excellent examples by EWS and Ikania of rulings to the complete contrary.

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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:56 pm

Consular wrote:
Consular wrote:I also suspect if we look hard we'll find recent cases where this exact thing has happened, but the opposite moderation decision was reached.


Aaaand there we go, two excellent examples by EWS and Ikania of rulings to the complete contrary.


I think Fris' point here was the clear paper trail, which by the (older) FAQ, allows them to take action on the general terms of "hacking" and "stealing" - which I'd attribute to malicious action.

However, the GDU incident *also* had a clear paper trail, and was *publicly* malicious - but no action took place (Rifty had GHR's regarding the ruling on that matter, but they're on a now-deleted account. Only a mod could dig them up now.)

In this case, it had the same, public, clear paper trail, was (subjectively) a far less malicious action (a coup, rather than seeking to completely destroy the region), but a very different chain of events following, seem to contradict the seemingly set precedence on the matter.

Moreso, the FAQ is decidedly cavalier on the ruling - if we see it, it's bad, if not, tough luck. While provability is an issue, understandably, this is an iffy statement. And what about the terms "hacking" and "stealing?" If, say, a nation was founded by a person who set up a shared email address, for shared access to a shared founder, and one of the two went loco lone day and locked the other out - who has "ownership?" Are hacking and stealing malicious, forced takeover, and sharing when ne is given the password? THat would be what is implied, and sharing is, by the RRSA, something the mods can do nothing about.

I agree that this is a trap containing many sticky situations for mods, which is why the RRSA which basically tells the public that they're staying out of it, makes sense - but this ruling contradicts that.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
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The color or what?..

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Postby RiderSyl » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:07 pm

From what I understood when the account in question was first created, it was a shared account by Nephmir and Anders Blakewood. Anders Blakewood was supposed to post in Gameplay for the region while Nephmir stayed out of Gameplay and ran the region with it, but then Nephmir used the account to argue with Blood Wine/Port blood in Gameplay. That's all I knew about the account, but it provides evidence that the account was a shared one from the very start. If that's the case, then I don't understand how Anders "stole" the account.

They both owned it, one of them decided they'd rather own all of it, and that was that. I'm with those saying the moderators acted where they shouldn't have.
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:14 pm

ANd that's one of my main points here. The FAQ is clear that hacking and stealing are bad, if only punishable when traceable. However, the RRSA classifies another, seperate action - sharing, which has it's own consequences defined there.

In my opinion, the act of deceiving a founder to gain a password and destroy a region is much closer to "stealing" than "sharing," and possibly warnable (but falling under many of the same arguments as raids - if obtaining a regional password via deceit and using that to raid a region isn't hacking the regional password, how is is hacking the nation? I think this is a very valid point, as hacking a region by brute force is illegal, but being given it is okay - why not a nation?), this is quite clearly a case of "sharing," where the nation was for a long time purposefully shared between two players, until a disagreement led one to lock the other out. While Neph created it, it was publicly stated as belonging to BOTH the King, Neph, and the at-time-Bishop, Anders. I think a reasonable player would look at that, see sharing, not hacking, see the rules regarding sharing, and find this to be a legal action.
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The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:16 pm

I think if the is the new policy, you risk a kind of pre-influence situation, where every disagreement between buddies who once shared accounts is brought to the mods, and you're forced to decide who is the "rightful" owner of the account. It seems to me, as an outsider, that the hands-off rules regarding shared accounts were specifically designed to prevent these kinds of situations by clarifying that the mods would not get involved, which this action is a direct contradiction of.


...I should like to note, as well, that it's quite understandable that returning the account to Ander's control is likely entirely out of the picture, and that seems reasonable to me. However, I personally would like to see the actions considered for reversal, due to the public rules seeming to greenlight the action, and the exact rules clarified however necessary - by a defining of terms, by a re-written RRSA, by any other manner that makes this situation, and all variations thereof, for the most part clearly rules upon.

It reads as if he's only being punished since he clearly posted what he did, leaving an irrefutable paper trail. Yet the same thing occurred with GDU, with much more malicious actions taken in gaining and using the account, with no punishment given. And as I've said, you run into muddy he said she said situations with ex-buddies who once shared a founder. You also run the question of, is this a legitimate mother of raiding? Even I'd frown upon it, but some would argue that it's little different than gaining access to a region by pretending to be friendly, and being given a password. If seeking a nation password in order to take over a region is illegal, it'll likely bring protests to make the the seeking of a regional password to take over a region illegal, even when both are given to the player, not taken by any force.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Consular
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Postby Consular » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:27 am

I'd just like to state that I agree with the assessment by EWS. He's pretty much said everything I would have at this point.

Even if returning the nation to Ander's is deemed impossible, I'd still very much like to see the warnings issued to him removed and expunged, and his WA returned to him, as anything different is effectively punishing him for a doing something the rules said was legal.

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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:16 am

I'd like to thank Fris real quick for being open about this and dealing with our long paragraphs explaining why we think their late-night decision was terribly wrong :P You were very polite, acknowledged that the action was a ruling on shaky and possibly conflicting grounds, explained your reasoning, and clearly opened this to discussion. We've been basically criticizing your action all evening, and I want to just make it absolutely clear we're not criticizing you, as a mod. You did what you though suited the job best at the time, and without you and the others, this place would be a lawless train wreck! Thank you for passing this up, as is appropriate, and acknowledging where our worries lie. Thank you for the late nights, and making the decisions people don't want to make and will argue about for days. Thanks, Fris.

In respect of this, we've tried to remain just as polite and cool-headed in our replies, instead of resorting to demands and anger like I feel some might be at the moment. Cough Rifty Cough
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Rifty
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Postby Rifty » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:24 am

Exactly - how is it moderators will bend their knee to Neohmir and provide him with his nation back but did not do this for bit khora or what I did in GDU? I have always gone of the FAQ for rules purely because they are the most acceptable and publicised.
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:00 am

H'rmm, in this sort of context, I wonder whom the Mods would think "owns" the IDU's founder?
To the best of my knowledge, all five of the players who originally shared control of it have now left NS... Would the Mods just assign "ownership" to the active player who's currently had access to its password for longest?
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:54 am

Rather than leaping to conclusions, it would probably be best if you waited for the moderator discussion on this topic to wrap up, and a definitive answer to be given - thanks for your patience.

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Nephmir
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Postby Nephmir » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:46 am

As a note, Anders did not have the password for months as EWS claims.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=tg/tgid=9342613

Also, last I checked forcibly seizing control of regions was legal, but nations?
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Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:48 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In respect of this, we've tried to remain just as polite and cool-headed in our replies, instead of resorting to demands and anger like I feel some might be at the moment. [size= 20]Cough Rifty Cough[/size]


Funny how thing work out eh? xD

Unless anyone has new points or few missed something, nothing much we can do besides wait now.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Great Kleomentia
Minister
 
Posts: 3499
Founded: Aug 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Kleomentia » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:14 am

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Rather than leaping to conclusions, it would probably be best if you waited for the moderator discussion on this topic to wrap up, and a definitive answer to be given - thanks for your patience.

Would you not already have a definitive answer on a topic such as this, seeing how you obviously had no trouble acting on several similar cases. With all due respect to the hard working moderation team, which takes their own free time to keep the forum in order, i have to point out how ridiculous a large number of moderation rulings are, explicitly in gameplay areas. By this point it really does seem like the whole event was done somewhat on a whim, on the moderation's behalf.
hue

User avatar
Dread Lady Nathicana
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 26053
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:18 am

Great Kleomentia wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Rather than leaping to conclusions, it would probably be best if you waited for the moderator discussion on this topic to wrap up, and a definitive answer to be given - thanks for your patience.

Would you not already have a definitive answer on a topic such as this, seeing how you obviously had no trouble acting on several similar cases. With all due respect to the hard working moderation team, which takes their own free time to keep the forum in order, i have to point out how ridiculous a large number of moderation rulings are, explicitly in gameplay areas. By this point it really does seem like the whole event was done somewhat on a whim, on the moderation's behalf.

No, we would not, considering there has been a couple of conflicting opinions on the information we have at hand. Nothing was done 'on a whim'. I'm not even going to begin to touch the whole 'ridiculous a large number' of rulings happen to be in Gameplay, as that is a can of worms we really needn't open up at this time. The point is, we are in the process of digging and fact-finding, and making sure that what's been seen is what has actually happened. So please, have some patience while that is worked through. If not for the ridiculous lengths some GP'ers go to to attempt to bend the system to their advantage, things might be a tad more clear cut and simple to tap and sort - which is not saying anyone has done anything wrong here. Simply that we try to be thorough when looking at the how, what, why, and who of things. Thanks.

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7268
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:42 am

Thank all of you for taking the time-consuming but necessary effort to properly investigate. I, and hopefully my fellows, understand that there's a lot going on here, a lot of far-reaching implications, and likely even differing opinions within the staff, and understand that with the varying time zones and activity levels, it may be a little while before everyone weighs in, gets replied to, responds, and so forth.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:22 pm

Indeed, I agree with EWS. Thanks for taking the time to look into this Nathicana.

User avatar
Chester Pearson
Minister
 
Posts: 2753
Founded: Aug 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Chester Pearson » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:04 pm

This is hilarious. I feel for Anders, being hosed over by a mod, as I have had a similar experience. Don't expect any kind of apology out of this though. Whilst I believe Fris was trying to do the right thing, it seems as though the proverbial ball was dropped pretty hard here....

(P.S. I am being nice here, and not going off on the rant that I have been saving up, for when moderation fucks up again....)
Separatist Peoples wrote:With a lawnchair and a large bag of popcorn in hand, Ambassador SaDiablo walks in and sets himself up comfortably. Out of a dufflebag comes a large foam finger with the name "Chester Pearson" emblazoned on it, as well as a few six-packs.
Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.90
-17.5 / -6
Chester B. Pearson,
Ambassador, Imperial Minster of Foreign Affairs United Federation of Canada
Premier The North American Union
Secretary-General United Regions Alliance
World Assembly Resolution Author
Recognized as one of the most famous NS's ever

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