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[Discussion] Nazi/Neo-Nazi symbolism in NS

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Misley
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[Discussion] Nazi/Neo-Nazi symbolism in NS

Postby Misley » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:34 pm

As suggested by Scolopendra in this thread, here's a discussion thread about Nazi imagery in NS.

First, I'd like to point out that the flag used by the nation Ustasha does invoke fascism -- the looping design around the U was used in the Croatian coat of arms under the Ustasha regime, so it's obviously not trying to innocently mean "rebel":
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/hr_ndh.html#coa

With that out of the way, how do we know when a nation goes too far? For instance, recently-DOS Aryan Shield Command was obviously much more blatantly Nazi than the parody-esque folks in GGR or the members of NE, but he's not far removed from the people in, say, National Socialist Ministries. Where did he cross the line that they haven't?

Was it the altered Horst-Wessel-Lied that he put on hundreds of WFEs, as he suggested was the reason in his post on the GGR RMB? I hesitate to take his word for it, as he also wrongfully blamed Nathicana of a personal grudge and in the same breath expressed happiness to "get out of this jew infested game once and for all." If the HWL was the final straw, though, why was that forbidden but not posting excerpts and links to Mein Kampf?

I get that it often comes down to a judgment call, but I'm curious what plays into making that decision.
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Postby Vicious Debaters » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:36 pm

I think that Nazis and their weird-ass communities are a fun part of NationStates.

The Team just needs to keep a tight balance between fun pro-Nazi radicals and anything that could get the website in trouble or cause problems. I think that's why they ban swastikas on flags. As long as they don't chase anyone out or let the forums fill with Nazis, I don't really see this as a big issue or anything worth considering. Unlike other things.

If you want to know more of the rules in detail, I'd use the One-Stop Rules Shop

Oh, and swasticas are allowed in forum posts.
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:57 am

Once again, with feeling ...

The only things that have been banned outright are Swastika flags and proven use of hate-based bits as laid out in the sticky about all this.

In Roleplay, and in playing up a group for whatever reason, be it Gameplay or otherwise, there's more latitude for use. Forum posts do not hold the same rules as a flag, as those can be individually addressed, debated, what have you. We get that you're firmly Antifa, we get that there are some of you who seem to believe that any and all references to all things Reich or fascist-related ought to be shitcanned and never shown the light of day. However, that simply isn't going to happen. Might as well request we ban all real-world imagery, names, themes, etc.

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Postby Scolopendra » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:19 am

The concept behind discussion threads is not 'discuss with the mods' but 'discuss amongst yourselves.' We've rather well blown this concept ourselves, but hey.

Anyway, here's a definition of judgment call.

Everyone else can discuss what should/shouldn't be banned and why. Carnac the Magnificent predicts 'everything' because 'humans have historically been jerks.'

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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:34 am

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Once again, with feeling ...

The only things that have been banned outright are Swastika flags and proven use of hate-based bits as laid out in the sticky about all this.

In Roleplay, and in playing up a group for whatever reason, be it Gameplay or otherwise, there's more latitude for use. Forum posts do not hold the same rules as a flag, as those can be individually addressed, debated, what have you. We get that you're firmly Antifa, we get that there are some of you who seem to believe that any and all references to all things Reich or fascist-related ought to be shitcanned and never shown the light of day. However, that simply isn't going to happen. Might as well request we ban all real-world imagery, names, themes, etc.


One thing I've never fully understood is the bit in bold. In a RP thread, where exactly does one debate the content of the OP, or any other post for that matter? Unless the RP was about a nation deciding to start using Swastikas as their nation symbol, it would seem to me that any debate about whether or not the use of the is appropriate would be spamming the thread. Added to that, if it's the OP using the imagery then there are parts of the forum where they can simply have any dissenting posts deleted, hardly a good platform for a fair debate about the content, although rather fitting considering the people represented by the pictures.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:50 am

Deleting that post was probably a good idea Scolo... ;)

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Postby Scolopendra » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 am

It's just not worth bothering.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:55 am

Scolopendra wrote:It's just not worth bothering.


What isn't worth bothering?

I assumed that you got rid because you realised that you'd completely misread what I wrote?

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Postby Misley » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:31 am

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Once again, with feeling ...

The only things that have been banned outright are Swastika flags and proven use of hate-based bits as laid out in the sticky about all this.


Yes, and Scolo suggested that a thread be created to discuss this.

The flag of Utasha has been shown to contain "hate-based bits" as it was the emblem of the fascist Independent State of Croatia which committed genocide against Roma, Jews, Serbs, and Muslims. Scolopendra said that because Utasha's flag doesn't contain a "flaming grenade," that it's "probably harmless" even though it is clearly the symbol of the regime that practiced genocide. If that emblem is permitted, then why isn't the swastika?

If ASC was indeed made DOS over the Horst-Wessel-Lied as he claims, then why wasn't his earlier posting of Mein Kampf also prohibited? I'd argue that Mein Kampf is far more "malicious" than the HWL.

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:In Roleplay, and in playing up a group for whatever reason, be it Gameplay or otherwise, there's more latitude for use. Forum posts do not hold the same rules as a flag, as those can be individually addressed, debated, what have you.


I understand that. I'm not bringing up anything that has happened forumside. I am dealing strictly with gameside matters.

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:We get that you're firmly Antifa, we get that there are some of you who seem to believe that any and all references to all things Reich or fascist-related ought to be shitcanned and never shown the light of day. However, that simply isn't going to happen. Might as well request we ban all real-world imagery, names, themes, etc.


Thanks for this rant about Antifa, I suppose. I made no active mention of my role in Antifa in my OP, and it didn't play a role in my creation of this thread. Would you have preferred I used a non-overt puppet to create this thread, or would you still have posted this entirely irrelevant screed? I am not, in this discussion, calling for "all things Reich or fascist-related to be shitcanned and never shown the light of day," so I cannot fathom why you thought it was important to bring up.

Scolopendra wrote:The concept behind discussion threads is not 'discuss with the mods' but 'discuss amongst yourselves.' We've rather well blown this concept ourselves, but hey.


Yes, you have.



Thanks for the condescending dictionary definition. I asked what goes into the judgement calls, not what a judgment call is.

Scolopendra wrote:Everyone else can discuss what should/shouldn't be banned and why. Carnac the Magnificent predicts 'everything' because 'humans have historically been jerks.'


Can we get some input from someone who isn't going to simply ignore what I actually wrote in the OP and rant about my Antifa credentials or condescendingly tell me things I already know?




Katganistan wrote:In {Discussion] threads, anyone may post so long as they remain civil, on topic, and posting in good faith. If you truly wish to discuss how to make the site better, welcome. If you only wish to score points, be off topic, snark or otherwise be nonconstructive, your posts will be removed and you may be warned.


If they weren't moderators, would Dread Lady Nathicana and Scolopendra's posts be construed as anything other than "off topic, snark, or otherwise nonconstructive"?
Last edited by Misley on Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Russian Socialist Soviet States » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:55 pm

There should be no restrictions on Nazi symbolism for the sake of historical accuracy. This includes flags.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:18 pm

Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:There should be no restrictions on Nazi symbolism for the sake of historical accuracy. This includes flags.


Historical Accuracy?
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Postby Earth in Roughly 1000 Years » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:30 pm

Misley wrote:The flag of Utasha has been shown to contain "hate-based bits" as it was the emblem of the fascist Independent State of Croatia which committed genocide against Roma, Jews, Serbs, and Muslims. Scolopendra said that because Utasha's flag doesn't contain a "flaming grenade," that it's "probably harmless" even though it is clearly the symbol of the regime that practiced genocide. If that emblem is permitted, then why isn't the swastika?

This is my question too, its a proven genocidal, irredentist nazi puppet state, and since all four of the aforementioned groups are represented here, that seems a bit inflammatory. The nation in question is doing the equivalent of having this as a flag and calling their nation 'The New American Empire of Naziland'

I don't understand why one is allowed when they other is not.
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Postby Russian Socialist Soviet States » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:26 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:There should be no restrictions on Nazi symbolism for the sake of historical accuracy. This includes flags.


Historical Accuracy?

It would be nice to have a swastika flag on a Nazi themed nation so you can be historically accurate.
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Postby Misley » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:32 pm

Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Historical Accuracy?

It would be nice to have a swastika flag on a Nazi themed nation so you can be historically accurate.


The administration and moderation teams have repeatedly stated that that will never happen, so it's not worth arguing.

Regardless, it is off-topic. The topic of this thread is specifically regarding where the line is drawn and how players can identify that line, both for those who wish to stay in good favor and play within the rules as Nazi-themed regions (as the folks in NE do -- I'm happy to have them around as gameplay adversaries) and those who wish to be able to identify and report actual rule-breaking behavior.
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Postby Shazbotdom » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:52 pm

Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Historical Accuracy?

It would be nice to have a swastika flag on a Nazi themed nation so you can be historically accurate.

His Holiness Max himself stated that this would never be allowed. Both to the Admins/Mods and I believe he also stated this in a MaxChat (Might be wrong in this part, someone could verify).
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:24 pm

Shazbotdom wrote:
Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:It would be nice to have a swastika flag on a Nazi themed nation so you can be historically accurate.

His Holiness Max himself stated that this would never be allowed. Both to the Admins/Mods and I believe he also stated this in a MaxChat (Might be wrong in this part, someone could verify).


Max did rule on it and the simple argument of his site; his rules is in play. Having said that they are pretty lenient for many things.

The rule itself: search.php?keywords=Nazi&t=260044&sf=msgonly

I agree with it's banning as the wankers who want it (not suggesting anybody on this site) tend to be wannabes.....
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Postby Russian Socialist Soviet States » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:55 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Shazbotdom wrote:His Holiness Max himself stated that this would never be allowed. Both to the Admins/Mods and I believe he also stated this in a MaxChat (Might be wrong in this part, someone could verify).


Max did rule on it and the simple argument of his site; his rules is in play. Having said that they are pretty lenient for many things.

The rule itself: search.php?keywords=Nazi&t=260044&sf=msgonly

I agree with it's banning as the wankers who want it (not suggesting anybody on this site) tend to be wannabes.....

Can't Max change his mind?
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Postby Ardoki » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:04 pm

Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Max did rule on it and the simple argument of his site; his rules is in play. Having said that they are pretty lenient for many things.

The rule itself: search.php?keywords=Nazi&t=260044&sf=msgonly

I agree with it's banning as the wankers who want it (not suggesting anybody on this site) tend to be wannabes.....

Can't Max change his mind?

Such symbols are illegal in certain countries, Germany is an example.

While NS is not subordinate to German law, some NS users are.
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Postby Tango Holland » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:11 pm

Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Max did rule on it and the simple argument of his site; his rules is in play. Having said that they are pretty lenient for many things.

The rule itself: search.php?keywords=Nazi&t=260044&sf=msgonly

I agree with it's banning as the wankers who want it (not suggesting anybody on this site) tend to be wannabes.....

Can't Max change his mind?

He hasn't for the several long years he's been running NS.

So no.

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Postby Shazbotdom » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:54 pm

Tango Holland wrote:
Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:Can't Max change his mind?

He hasn't for the several long years he's been running NS.

So no.

He made NationStates. The original coding was his work. He pays for the server space, etc. They had screenshots of the original design during the big anniversary. It has come a long way since then.
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Postby Tano » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:34 am

Shazbotdom wrote:
Tango Holland wrote:He hasn't for the several long years he's been running NS.

So no.

He made NationStates. The original coding was his work. He pays for the server space, etc. They had screenshots of the original design during the big anniversary. It has come a long way since then.

People make this threads every couple of months it seems. Now multiply that by the amount of years NS has been running.

That's a very rough estimate of the amount of times Max hasn't changed his mind.
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Postby Swith Witherward » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:28 am

My player opinion on this...

This is my puppet. I'm spoofing both Nazis and grammar nazis. I would have loved to have incorporated a swastika into my flag to make it feel a bit more "authentic" but, because my flag (and my hard-wired factbook) are static, the symbol can't be displayed. This may be due to international law. The final law is the site owner's and he says "no". I can live with that.

Nazis are frequently portrayed in role play. The objective isn't the glorification of a past regime in order to advocate killing Jews and gays. It's reenactment (historically or alternate history) and billed as entertainment. Photographs of swastikas (banners, uniforms, and all) are allowed in the thread although, really, people shouldn't hotlink anything.

Swastikas and Nazis frequently become a topic in forums. There isn't any law (to my knowledge) that states a person can not link to a photostatic copy of a Mein Kampf page when posting an excerpt. (As a matter of fact, the book is currently in the news again because of copyright, so it's being discussed on various sites.) If the quote is used to support an argument, it can be argued by others participating in the discussion. It isn't the promotion of a concept so much as it is the discussion of that concept. Can we post links to photostatic copies here on NS so we can debate the contents? I honestly have no idea. You'd need to ask the Mods.

"This is why we can't have nice things."

I hate to say it, but really... think about it... who would use the swastika the most if they were allowed in static display (flags, factbooks)? Would it be the historian or the person attempted to portray an authentic Nazi-based nation? Would it be the mature fascist that knows how to express himself without sounding like a barking spider on the forums? More than likely, it will be used by a wanna-be neonazi teenager in an attempt to be edgy. It would also be used by the morons aiming for shock value. It's become the online troll banner. In other words, the percentage of the population using swastikas on NS might just be be comprised of village idiots come to roost for the summer and autumn. They would probably outnumber the intelligent fascists. Overwhelmingly so. Are all X also Y? No. However all X might be viewed (and reported) by NS peers as belonging to Y whether they like it or not.

It would be up to Moderation to pick the good eggs from the bad. They would need to judge. Is this fascist a troll or is he authentic and simply displaying a flag that has meaning to him? Is this nation IC or is the user abusing the game to promote antisemitic hatred? Does this nation's use of the swastika and other Nazi symbolism reflect an attempt at a nazi-based nation or is it the political statement of someone who also belongs to Stormfront? It's not worth the heartache and hurt feelings.




Also... I'm not a Mod, so please don't take what I posted here as "permission" to start up threads on Hitler's book etc. I've never really taken the time to delve into how far any of us can go with Nazi-themed RP or factbook threads, and I have no idea how tight the ropes are for General.
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Postby Indo-pasif archipelago » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:34 am

Just one question without any means of offense, but why do Nazi got banned but Israel not? I mean, I don't say that hamas don't do harm to them but Israel has killed people in great number, sorry if this considered as threadjacking.
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:37 am

Indo-pasif archipelago wrote:Just one question without any means of offense, but why do Nazi got banned but Israel not? I mean, I don't say that hamas don't do harm to them but Israel has killed people in great number, sorry if this considered as threadjacking.

For the same reason that the Hammer & Sickle isn't banned, when people see the Israeli flag the first reaction isn't the wardead from the issues in Gaza and elsewhere. Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.
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Postby Russian Socialist Soviet States » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:39 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Indo-pasif archipelago wrote:Just one question without any means of offense, but why do Nazi got banned but Israel not? I mean, I don't say that hamas don't do harm to them but Israel has killed people in great number, sorry if this considered as threadjacking.

For the same reason that the Hammer & Sickle isn't banned, when people see the Israeli flag the first reaction isn't the wardead from the issues in Gaza and elsewhere. Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.

What people think shouldn't matter. This is a political simulation game. I would like to be as accurate as possible if I ever had a Nazi themed nation.
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