Are Roleplay and Gameplay both treated fairly? [Discussion]

[Blood Wine]

It does seem oddly unjust that the Raider answer to this issue is 'do things which participate in our mechanic, so as to stop us if you can'.

If I'd said 'you have to RP properly, otherwise I'll RP my invasion of your territory, and prevent you from raiding as you'd like', then I'd be laughed at, but that is, more or less, the paradigm in place, in a sense.

There is no comparison here,GP operates on different mechanics,customs and conventions,it's not "our" mechanic,its everyones - the influence system is in YOUR favor,not the raiders,just look at Anarchy,which is holding on after 156 days due to the influence buildup by natives

Everything is in DNN(Defender,Neutral,Native - trying to make this a proper term ) their favor,they just do not use anything in their favor,while the raiders use the little advantages they have to the fullest

[Hurdegaryp]

So you want to ban us from posting our regional news?

I want you to stop seizing -- and often wrecking -- other people's regions. Cutting down on your right to boast about those actions seems one way of deterring you.
No other side of the game gets to force its style of play on other people, so why should raiders have that special privilege?

It has been a big mistake to allow the raiders so much leeway, and this problem should have been solved long ago. When you let an infection go untreated, it will only get worse. But now that the moderators have apparently been forced to accept a known and utterly unapologetical raider in their ranks, things certainly didn't get better in any respect.

[Mekhet]

I want you to stop seizing -- and often wrecking -- other people's regions. Cutting down on your right to boast about those actions seems one way of deterring you.
No other side of the game gets to force its style of play on other people, so why should raiders have that special privilege?

It has been a big mistake to allow the raiders so much leeway, and this problem should have been solved long ago. When you let an infection go untreated, it will only get worse. But now that the moderators have apparently been forced to accept a known and utterly unapologetical raider in their ranks, things certainly didn't get better in any respect.

Yet again, it was apparently Sedge a former defender mod that nominated Mall for the role. Sedge couped TSP once, but he would hardly ever be considered a raider.

[Bears Armed]

Yet again, it was apparently Sedge a former defender mod that nominated Mall for the role. Sedge couped TSP once, but he would hardly ever be considered a raider.

There are defenders who defend because they actually think that raiding should be stopped, but then there are also defenders who defend [mainly] because they consider the R/D subgame fun and just happen to have chosen that side of it for one reason or another: Which end of that scale did Sedge tend towards?

[The Sapientia]

I just realized, after seeing all these posts, that us raiders are the one at fault. We are ruining years of hard work in the matter of a month. We just jump in and destroy what RPers have worked for. It's sick what we do. We drive people out of the game and make it harder for people trying to live in peace succeed.
I also just realized that this realization made it all the more sweeter to raid. I think the term for this schadenfreude. You aren't gonna make us change by moralistic side...

[Kryozerkia]

I just realized, after seeing all these posts, that us raiders are the one at fault. We are ruining years of hard work in the matter of a month. We just jump in and destroy what RPers have worked for. It's sick what we do. We drive people out of the game and make it harder for people trying to live in peace succeed.
I also just realized that this realization made it all the more sweeter to raid. I think the term for this schadenfreude. You aren't gonna make us change by moralistic side...

Are you trying to provoke a fight? Because if so, you're doing a fantastic job. How about instead you play nice.

[Hurdegaryp]

I just realized, after seeing all these posts, that us raiders are the one at fault. We are ruining years of hard work in the matter of a month. We just jump in and destroy what RPers have worked for. It's sick what we do. We drive people out of the game and make it harder for people trying to live in peace succeed.
I also just realized that this realization made it all the more sweeter to raid. I think the term for this schadenfreude. You aren't gonna make us change by moralistic side...

Are you trying to provoke a fight? Because if so, you're doing a fantastic job. How about instead you play nice.

Anything goes now that a raider has become a moderator. If I would have said something similar, I would have received a warning.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Are you trying to provoke a fight? Because if so, you're doing a fantastic job. How about instead you play nice.

Anything goes now that a raider has become a moderator. If I would have said something similar, I would have received a warning.

Mate, calm down. You aren't helping our case.

[Riftend]

Are you trying to provoke a fight? Because if so, you're doing a fantastic job. How about instead you play nice.

Anything goes now that a raider has become a moderator. If I would have said something similar, I would have received a warning.

Seriously what is wrong with having a Raider as a mod? Raiding breaks no rules - It's an aspect of gameplay. If we have members fro all across NS as mods we don't have close-minded views from those governing us -.-

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I just realized, after seeing all these posts, that us raiders are the one at fault. We are ruining years of hard work in the matter of a month. We just jump in and destroy what RPers have worked for. It's sick what we do. We drive people out of the game and make it harder for people trying to live in peace succeed.
I also just realized that this realization made it all the more sweeter to raid. I think the term for this schadenfreude. You aren't gonna make us change by moralistic side...

Not to worry, folks. Posts like this only serve to provide us with referenced examples of those who like to tap-dance on landmines. They aren't the only ones who derive a certain satisfaction when events come to their logical conclusion. *smiles serenely* Ah yes, schadenfreude. It goes both ways.

Also, as a note - no one 'forced' anyone to accept a 'raider' into our ranks as moderators. Mal was vetted by the entire group, as an experienced and competent player. And I for one, though I disagree with his preferred part of the game, have no problem with him as a moderator or person. He's been solid, and offered some great insight into not only the R/D bit, but other aspects of the game I was less familiar with. Let's not dive straight into the mudslinging if we can avoid it, and instead, focus on more useful suggestions and potential solutions, hm?

[Riftend]

The fact of the matter is life isn't fair. Nothing is fair and just unfortunately. Gameplay and Roleplay being treated as equal as each over is something that'll never occur. Roleplay is left to do what it does whereas Gameplay is constantly targeted for change - specifically R/D. I don't jump in your Roleplay threads going off my head about how unfair it is someone has eight billion as their population in a realistic Roleplay - so don't jump out telling me that R/D should be stopped because some people feel butthurt that they were raided - rather than whine do what the rest of NS does and just turn WAD to non-executive.

Now - someone direct me to a rule saying raiding is not allowed? No? No one? Damn~

In saying that - why can't we have a raider as a Moderator? Today you all whine because he's a raider - Tomorrow because ones a capitalist - and than what? We are lead by a minority that shares similar views. Whether we like it or not the Mods are people - which means hey are influenced by their personal values and beliefs. That's why I certainly feel we should have a diverse culture amongst our mods

[Kryozerkia]

Anything goes now that a raider has become a moderator. If I would have said something similar, I would have received a warning.

Seriously what is wrong with having a Raider as a mod? Raiding breaks no rules - It's an aspect of gameplay. If we have members fro all across NS as mods we don't have close-minded views from those governing us -.-

Raiding doesn't inherently break site rules. It's the actions of individual players that may. The same goes for Defenders, RPers, GPers, WA delegates/ambassadors, NSGers etc.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Riftend, the reason you don't jump into people's RP's is because it's against the rules to troll like that.

There isn't the same protection in the R/D mess, and you know it. So it's a patently false equivalency issue there. You could do with toning it down a touch, considering you know full well how testy a subject this all is.

Yes, we get it. Everyone thinks they are in the right, and the other side is in the wrong. Surprise. But if you can't contribute with anything but gloating and waving the fact in one another's faces, there isn't much point to your posting other than to act somewhat dickish. I'd rather we avoided that, thanks.

[Bears Armed]

The fact of the matter is life isn't fair. Nothing is fair and just unfortunately. Gameplay and Roleplay being treated as equal as each over is something that'll never occur. Roleplay is left to do what it does

except when raiders attack, and possibly wreck, RP-based regions...

whereas Gameplay is constantly targeted for change - specifically R/D.

Because raiders keep on finding ways to exploit the system so that they can attack regions whose inhabitants don't want to play that side of the game, and NS's administration realise that they have to do something to slow that process so that the raids don't drive "too many" of the non-raiding players out of NS altogther or at least push "too many" of them into the founders & sinks rather than UCRs... either of which results would, according to various of the more vocal raiders, themselves be enough to "kill" the R/D side of things.

rather than whine do what the rest of NS does and just turn WAD to non-executive.

For the umpteenth furless time -- and at least the third time this week in response to one of your posts -- the regions most at risk from raiders are the founderless regions, and the game's coding means that the WADs of founderless regions are automatically 'executive'.

[Tano]

I just realized, after seeing all these posts, that us raiders are the one at fault. We are ruining years of hard work in the matter of a month. We just jump in and destroy what RPers have worked for. It's sick what we do. We drive people out of the game and make it harder for people trying to live in peace succeed.
I also just realized that this realization made it all the more sweeter to raid. I think the term for this schadenfreude. You aren't gonna make us change by moralistic side...

Not helping the opinion of R/D improve with shit like that

As for being treated fairly...I"d say yeah. RPers get a shit ton of extra forums (we only get one), have thread ownership, and can do their thing without actually utilizing the game. GPers are *hopefully* getting a ton of new features that will liven things up and perhaps make it a bit more challenging (delegate elect proposal)

[Cerillium]

The fact of the matter is life isn't fair. Nothing is fair and just unfortunately. Gameplay and Roleplay being treated as equal as each over is something that'll never occur. Roleplay is left to do what it does whereas Gameplay is constantly targeted for change - specifically R/D. I don't jump in your Roleplay threads going off my head about how unfair it is someone has eight billion as their population in a realistic Roleplay - so don't jump out telling me that R/D should be stopped because some people feel butthurt that they were raided - rather than whine do what the rest of NS does and just turn WAD to non-executive.

Now - someone direct me to a rule saying raiding is not allowed? No? No one? Damn~

In saying that - why can't we have a raider as a Moderator? Today you all whine because he's a raider - Tomorrow because ones a capitalist - and than what? We are lead by a minority that shares similar views. Whether we like it or not the Mods are people - which means hey are influenced by their personal values and beliefs. That's why I certainly feel we should have a diverse culture amongst our mods

Just to clarify: many don't go by game stats for population, culture and so on.

The difference you mentioned does serve a point. You are more than free to state your opinion regarding RP in forums. You can even state it in an OOC thread (although you strongly risk being reported for spamming and/or threadjacking). You can't state it in an IC thread where participants are often approved at the discretion of the OP. The IC thread is where the actual RP game is played. There is set etiquette that all who participate follow. Rules for the game are established by the one that owns the thread.

Users are free to state their opinion regarding RD in the forums. However, raiders come into RP regions. The entire region might be IC. Participants are approved by whoever's in charge. You, as a raider, jump into RP "threads" (the RP game itself) when you raid. The problem lies in the fact that there aren't any rules which state "raiding is not allowed in closed RP games - ie regions". That may be where the strife lies for some people, actually.

That said, tack on the usual "Cer is pro-raider" and "RD is here to stay". Top it with "use your passwords, strip the Delegate of power and save your WFE code someplace safe". My usual spiel.

I agree with you regarding diversity.

RPers might not be aware of it, but Mall provides valuable insight. As a Mentor looking to find harmony between communities, I know I can approach him and receive honest and frank answers from an experienced raider's standpoint. This allows me to either go back to the drawing board or else scrap my concept. I appreciate that.

I don't believe all communities are represented by Mods yet. I don't think we have any familiar with P2TM, for example. However, their collective knowledge spreads out to encompass all aspects of the site. An individual Mod may be biased or partial to one aspect but, when functioning as Mods here in this forum or via GHR complaints, they don't act completely alone unless something seems rather black and white (bots, sig length complaints, obvious trolling or spam etc). That point has been expressed in this forum quite a few times. There is collective discussion on heavier matters. Users are also given the option of requesting a second opinion on a ruling if they believe the Mod's decision was unfair or lacking.

[Blood Wine]

Are you trying to provoke a fight? Because if so, you're doing a fantastic job. How about instead you play nice.

Anything goes now that a raider has become a moderator. If I would have said something similar, I would have received a warning.

Right,A raider mod is evil by default and will rule in favor of raiders even when they are wrong

Because raiders keep on finding ways to exploit the system so that they can attack regions whose inhabitants don't want to play that side of the game, and NS's administration realise that they have to do something to slow that process so that the raids don't drive "too many" of the non-raiding players out of NS altogther or at least push "too many" of them into the founders & sinks rather than UCRs... either of which results would, according to various of the more vocal raiders, themselves be enough to "kill" the R/D side of things.

Exploit? such as?

For the umpteenth furless time -- and at least the third time this week in response to one of your posts -- the regions most at risk from raiders are the founderless regions, and the game's coding means that the WADs of founderless regions are automatically 'executive'.

For the gallilithiond time,founderless regions can refound,see FRA for that particular action

[Avenio]

I just realized, after seeing all these posts, that us raiders are the one at fault. We are ruining years of hard work in the matter of a month. We just jump in and destroy what RPers have worked for. It's sick what we do. We drive people out of the game and make it harder for people trying to live in peace succeed.
I also just realized that this realization made it all the more sweeter to raid. I think the term for this schadenfreude. You aren't gonna make us change by moralistic side...

Not helping the opinion of R/D improve with shit like that

On the contrary, Sapientia's honesty is refreshing. He/she at least has the backbone to not drench raiders' motives in a bunch of self-satisfied apologism about 'increasing activity' or some such bullshit.

[Tano]

Not helping the opinion of R/D improve with shit like that

On the contrary, Sapientia's honesty is refreshing. He/she at least has the backbone to not drench raiders' motives in a bunch of self-satisfied apologism about 'increasing activity' or some such bullshit.

There are ways of stating that without coming across in the way he did. It was not helpful to either side.

[Avenio]

On the contrary, Sapientia's honesty is refreshing. He/she at least has the backbone to not drench raiders' motives in a bunch of self-satisfied apologism about 'increasing activity' or some such bullshit.

There are ways of stating that without coming across in the way he did. It was not helpful to either side.

I disagree. Now that the fact of the matter is out in the open - namely that raiding really is just legalized griefing with uniforms and ranks - we can get a lot more done. We're not going to be mutually talking past each other with euphemisms or what have you, just the plain honest truth of it.

[The Sapientia]

I just realized, after seeing all these posts, that us raiders are the one at fault. We are ruining years of hard work in the matter of a month. We just jump in and destroy what RPers have worked for. It's sick what we do. We drive people out of the game and make it harder for people trying to live in peace succeed.
I also just realized that this realization made it all the more sweeter to raid. I think the term for this schadenfreude. You aren't gonna make us change by moralistic side...

Are you trying to provoke a fight? Because if so, you're doing a fantastic job. How about instead you play nice.

It was a way of saying that all these arguments are not going to matter to a raider. We're doing this for fun, just like an RPer or someone who wants to chat on the RMB, albiet in a slightly somewhat extremely dickish way.
I would rephrase my post in hindsight.

[Hurdegaryp]

On the contrary, Sapientia's honesty is refreshing. He/she at least has the backbone to not drench raiders' motives in a bunch of self-satisfied apologism about 'increasing activity' or some such bullshit.

There are ways of stating that without coming across in the way he did. It was not helpful to either side.

At least Sapientia is not beating around the bush or telling pretty lies in order to make raiders look beautiful and worthy of admiration. He may receive some backlash from his fellow raiders because of it, but maybe he is raider enough not to care about that either.

[Tano]

There are ways of stating that without coming across in the way he did. It was not helpful to either side.

At least Sapientia is not beating around the bush or telling pretty lies in order to make raiders look beautiful and worthy of admiration. He may receive some backlash from his fellow raiders because of it, but maybe he is raider enough not to care about that either.

Erm...what? I don't ever remember a raider trying to make himself look "beautiful and worthy of admiration." Some believe in the activity thing. I personally like raiding because it's fun. I don't do it to be jackass to natives, or to disrupt communities.

So in essence, I do agree with the larger point Sap was trying to make, but not the way he phrased it.

[Kryozerkia]

Are you trying to provoke a fight? Because if so, you're doing a fantastic job. How about instead you play nice.

It was a way of saying that all these arguments are not going to matter to a raider. We're doing this for fun, just like an RPer or someone who wants to chat on the RMB, albiet in a slightly somewhat extremely dickish way.
I would rephrase my post in hindsight.

I understand your meaning, but it did indeed come off kinda dickish. But then again, hindsight is 20/20. As long as you know for next time.

[Crystal Spires]

however dickish it came off as, he is lampshading an important point. The fact is that these actions are specifically griefing, and there is no way to really mask it as something else, as the fact is that Raiders do enjoy seeing the hard work people put into making and upkeeping a region and destroying it to make people upset, as it is something they do for fun. If trying to upset a group of players for fun is not trolling or griefing, then I don't know what is. We have to redefine trolling or griefing to make it inapplicable to this kind of action, or we have to say that 'trolling is allowed'. This means that the rules aren't being applied equitably as they would be in a generalite thread, a P2TM thread, OR an RP thread. This is the privilege that is reserved for the R&Ders that I think that needs to be done away with, but that is just me. Trolling is trolling, and I feel we should call it such so as not to mask it with a veneer of legitimacy.