NationStates

Christian Democrats wrote:

[violet] wrote:We're not saying 1940s Germany is the worst; we're saying that when you create a nation that's a simple carbon copy of Nazi Germany, people tend to interpret that as an endorsement of a very particular atrocity. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but that's the perception. And we care about the perception.

It is certainly possible to create Soviet nations, or any other kind of nation, that appears to endorse specific acts of violence, too, and that's not acceptable for the same reason.

Let me see if I understand this policy.

A person creates a nation based on the Ukrainian SSR and seemingly glorifies the Holodomor.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Stalin that seems to glorify the Katyn Forest massacre.

A person creates a nation based on the Black Panthers that condones cop killing.

A person creates a nation based on the Khmer Rouge that glorifies the Killing Fields.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Truman that lauds the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Sherman that lauds the March to the Sea.

A person creates a nation dedicated to the Ku Klux Klan that praises the bombing of black churches.

Would all of these players, for example, be penalized by the moderation staff?

Yes, yes it would.

And if you DO see them, report them!

NERVUN wrote:

Christian Democrats wrote:Let me see if I understand this policy.

A person creates a nation based on the Ukrainian SSR and seemingly glorifies the Holodomor.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Stalin that seems to glorify the Katyn Forest massacre.

A person creates a nation based on the Black Panthers that condones cop killing.

A person creates a nation based on the Khmer Rouge that glorifies the Killing Fields.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Truman that lauds the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Sherman that lauds the March to the Sea.

A person creates a nation dedicated to the Ku Klux Klan that praises the bombing of black churches.

Would all of these players, for example, be penalized by the moderation staff?

Yes, yes it would.

'And if you DO see them, report them!

This is quite disturbing. To think that the mods would take such an anti-roleplay stance proves that that it will now become rather difficult to rp a relatively evil nation.
the bastion of slavery, for instance: Where do you draw the line between roleplay and actually 'endorsing violance?

Vakolic wrote:

NERVUN wrote:Yes, yes it would.

'And if you DO see them, report them!

This is quite disturbing. To think that the mods would take such an anti-roleplay stance proves that that it will now become rather difficult to rp a relatively evil nation.
the bastion of slavery, for instance: Where do you draw the line between roleplay and actually 'endorsing violance?

[Violet] already provided the line, reasonable person taking a look. If it does seem to be RP, great, we'll leave well enough alone. But if at a glance we look at a nation/region and all we're getting is hate or celebration of human suffering... no.

NERVUN wrote:

Vakolic wrote:This is quite disturbing. To think that the mods would take such an anti-roleplay stance proves that that it will now become rather difficult to rp a relatively evil nation.
the bastion of slavery, for instance: Where do you draw the line between roleplay and actually 'endorsing violance?

[Violet] already provided the line, reasonable person taking a look. If it does seem to be RP, great, we'll leave well enough alone. But if at a glance we look at a nation/region and all we're getting is hate or celebration of human suffering... no.

Do the ns nazis really 'celebrate human suffering?'

Vakolic wrote:

NERVUN wrote:[Violet] already provided the line, reasonable person taking a look. If it does seem to be RP, great, we'll leave well enough alone. But if at a glance we look at a nation/region and all we're getting is hate or celebration of human suffering... no.

Do the ns nazis really 'celebrate human suffering?'

Again, if we're looking at a nation page and seeing Adolf Hitler, Ein Volk, Ein Reich, etc. A reasonable person would conclude that they are approving of Nazi Germany, which is pretty much known for one thing.

Great, then you got alot of work ahead of you in The_internationale.

you can click pretty much a random page of theirs and see them spouting all sorts of hate.

and whilst your at it, you might as well DEAT their founder so we can have a fair crack at their region like you guys did to ours.

sure wish you guys were more reasonable than this.

National Sozialistische wrote:Great, then you got alot of work ahead of you in The_internationale.

you can click pretty much a random page of theirs and see them spouting all sorts of hate.

and whilst your at it, you might as well DEAT their founder so we can have a fair crack at their region like you guys did to ours.

sure wish you guys were more reasonable than this.

If you see something fitting the above, feel free to report it via Getting Help. Trying to get communists in trouble just because you're annoyed with the law as laid down by the top admin however will not end well.

no im not saying that. what im saying is why DEAT our founder just to reinstate her so our region could be invaded?

why not delete the motto and flag that caused this in the first place?

could you explain please?

National Sozialistische wrote:no im not saying that. what im saying is why DEAT our founder just to reinstate her so our region could be invaded?

why not delete the motto and flag that caused this in the first place?

could you explain please?

That, unfortunately, was the result of crossed wires with an order coming from [Violet] being implemented before the rest of the Hivemind said wait a minute. It was a mistake, and for that we apologize. Currently we're waiting for LCG, who has already received a TG about it, to come online to make a formal apology to the region.

is there any way to lock the region temporarily or any solution to this as the opposition is gloating over this technicality. thats the main issue of this whole problem. or at least make the delegate non executive as they are canceling embassies and banning our members from the region destroying everything.

we would really appreciate it. especially in the interest of fair play.

National Sozialistische wrote:is there any way to lock the region temporarily or any solution to this as the opposition is gloating over this technicality. thats the main issue of this whole problem. or at least make the delegate non executive as they are canceling embassies and banning our members from the region destroying everything.

we would really appreciate it. especially in the interest of fair play.

Unfortunately, no. There's no real switch we can flip to take away delegate control. It's also viewed that this is pretty much a tag raid since the region cannot be held.

what about restoring my account then. "national socializtiche" as i was DEAT for the same reason as LCG. shouldnt i be afforded the same courtesy as well? all i had up was a ordinary german officer. no swastikas or anything same as her.

I am happy about this on the gameplay side - I will just have to wait to see how it goes with regards to roleplaying and when a ruling in that are happens I will be forming a solid opinion.

Cogitation wrote:If your nation is intended for roleplay, then it is incumbent upon you to choose a national name and custom fields that avoid being mistaken for a celebration of real violence.

Doesn't that rule out roleplaying based closely on just about any RL nation that's ever been involved in conflict (except for self-defence, within its own borders only, against foreign invasions), at least if any sympathisers with the historical nation's opponents/victims object?
For example, I have a puppet based on medieval England, and although I haven't actually done much with it yet I can easily envisage some French or Scottish players invoking this rule to try and get it deleted if I do start using it in RP...

Wouldn't a simple pole vote tell you whether the average person would find a swastika offensive?

Also, I must agree with the ggr people (as much as that statement pains me to utter), there's such a thing as the 'soft touch approach to solving problems,' you know?

Bears Armed wrote:Doesn't that rule out roleplaying based cloeely on just about any RL nation that's ever been involved in conflict, at least if any sympathisers with the historical nation's opponents/victims object?

No, as has already been stated in this thread. It is permitted to base a country on the UK, or Japan, or the USSR, or whatever, provided that you don't "endorse specific acts of violence" (to quote [violet]). Due to general perception of Nazi Germany, it's a finer line there than in other cases.

AFAIK, this has been site policy, in one way or another, for a long time -- e.g. the flag policy noting that a Japanese flag is, itself, okay, but one combined with a motto of "we bombed your grandparents" is not.

Bears Armed wrote:

Cogitation wrote:If your nation is intended for roleplay, then it is incumbent upon you to choose a national name and custom fields that avoid being mistaken for a celebration of real violence.

Doesn't that rule out roleplaying based closely on just about any RL nation that's ever been involved in conflict (except for self-defence, within its own borders only, against foreign invasions), at least if any sympathisers with the historical nation's opponents/victims object?
For example, I have a puppet based on medieval England, and although I haven't actually done much with it yet I can easily envisage some French or Scottish players invoking this rule to try and get it deleted if I do start using it in RP...

No. Medieval English doesn't invoke something akin to the Holocaust.

The Tofu Islands wrote:AFAIK, this has been site policy, in one way or another, for a long time -- e.g. the flag policy noting that a Japanese flag is, itself, okay, but one combined with a motto of "we bombed your grandparents" is not.

This bears repeating, this has been site policy for quite some time. Max and [Violet] simply felt that we Mods had let the line slip from where they wanted it.

NERVUN wrote:

Bears Armed wrote:Doesn't that rule out roleplaying based closely on just about any RL nation that's ever been involved in conflict (except for self-defence, within its own borders only, against foreign invasions), at least if any sympathisers with the historical nation's opponents/victims object?
For example, I have a puppet based on medieval England, and although I haven't actually done much with it yet I can easily envisage some French or Scottish players invoking this rule to try and get it deleted if I do start using it in RP...

No. Medieval English doesn't invoke something akin to the Holocaust.

William I's "Harrying of the North"?
Richard the Lion-heart's massacre of thousands of Sarcen captives, a clear 'war crime' by modern standards?
The massacre during Edward I's sack of Berwick-on-Tweed?
Edward I's expulsion of the Jews from England?

All still okay to be roleplayed?

Vakolic wrote:Wouldn't a simple pole vote tell you whether the average person would find a swastika offensive?

Also, I must agree with the ggr people (as much as that statement pains me to utter), there's such a thing as the 'soft touch approach to solving problems,' you know?

Why yes, I would think so.

Anyway, these new plans seem fine to me. It's just setting in stone rules that have been around for ages: you can RP, just don't be insensitive to others with your nation.

I for one support the spirit of of Violet's post. Actually the existence of regions glorifying the third reich and its various offshoots is a bigger problem than just nations. The GGR & NAZI EUROPE Come to mind. There was a hj themed region with some really unpleasent stuff on its WFE & RMB but that was closed down by antifa.

I am aware of overt stalinist nations but I don't recall a stalinist region a la GGR - if there is one shut it down by all means.

Probably its a question of whether Max B wants to be associated with something, there was a problem with paedophilia being advocated a while back that was acted on and this appears to be in the same spirit.

I Support this and i'm sic of people like National Socialtezeches who act like we should allow the Swasticka but not the Hammer and Sickle, Stalin ruined the name of communism, but you people can't say that the USSR was founded by Stalin

Bears Armed wrote:

NERVUN wrote:No. Medieval English doesn't invoke something akin to the Holocaust.

William I's "Harrying of the North"?
Richard the Lion-heart's massacre of thousands of Sarcen captives, a clear 'war crime' by modern standards?
The massacre during Edward I's sack of Berwick-on-Tweed?
Edward I's expulsion of the Jews from England?

All still okay to be roleplayed?

Baring Arch, none of that is what is immediately invoked when I read those names (Hell, Richard brings up Robin Hood).

And again, here's the point: RPing on the forum, probably not going to be too much of an issue here. You guys go OOC, it's easy to see that this is make-believe. RMBs, also generally easy to see. It's when looking at your nation pages... THAT'S where they stickiness lies. So if you're making a nation called Edward I of England with a motto of "Expel Jews" and place it in a region called "Jewless England" and start filling your RMB with things calling for killing Jews, expelling them, etc. THEN you're probably going to find Moderation looking.

Communist Eraser wrote:So after my initial glee and bloodlust, I believe National Sozialistische has a point.

The current invasion of The Greater German Reich was caused by mod error. It appears the founder Leather-clad Germany was initially deleted, but then quickly reinstated...in Lazarus, like it had CTE and refounded.

This mod action had the direct consequence of making the delegate position in The Greater German Reich to go from non-exec to exec, enabling the raid to occur.

I'm going to respond to this because I see that the moderators have not responded to it, which leads me to believe they are still considering this matter.

There was no "mod error" involved. Leather-clad Germany was in fact in violation of rules on the kind of malicious and offensive content discussed in this thread and was presumably deleted for that reason. That the mods reinstated her was lenient, far too lenient in my opinion given that she has presided over a region that has produced volumes of malicious content. Leniency does not mean that a very appropriate punishment of deletion was an error, it simply means the mods were lenient.

Moreover, there is no reason for the mods to reverse the invasion of The Greater German Reich. Because they have been lenient and reinstated LCG, she is more than capable as founder of reversing the invasion and its effects on her own. Indeed, had she logged in and moved her nation back to the region sooner the invasion would not even have been possible. Why should the mods do what she is herself quite capable of doing?

so youre saying our region is to be associated with pedophilia? are you out of your d**n mind?
and youre sick of me drawing parallel to communism/socialism's MASSIVE atrocities?

sure your happy to see our region wrecked being a communist/antifa/socialist yourself.

i know you and anyone in your region would be horrified if you came online just to find out your nations were deleted and region destroyed by a over zelous mod.

and cormac of course you feel that way its not YOUR region destroyed,
you have no idea what we have done or didnt do and NERVUN already said it was an accident so your "judgement" is way off base.

when that happens THEN tell me you feel the same way.

but of course this isnt the case. and from what i can tell only ONE communist nation was DEAT so far in this game.

from what i can already tell there's ALOT of our allies and nations gone and our regions satellites and members are all getting kickbanned and trolled by the opposition. and all that can be said is "sorry"

i never got a reply on my aformentioned post.

roleplaying is now dead on NS. especially considering any RP you do could potentially get you deleted.