[Report] Implied troll naming

[Kelinfort]

How have y'all not put Hetrio on ignore yet? You put other trolls on ignore, no?


Frankly Hetrio, while I'm sure you fundamentally believe everything you're saying here, I don't actually care. What I care about is the fact that by admitting everyone under the sun into our umbrella you diminish the rest of us. Demisexuality and its ilk make a mockery of the struggles real live gay and lesbian people go through. Increasingly inane idiocy like "gendersilence" or "zodiacsexuality" or whatever the fuck? You know what that does? It completely devalues and destroys the very real struggle that actual transgender people undergo! You understand that what our lives can be like, have you no compassion? Why then, do you want to destroy the only thing that protects us? Our identity is a shield against the world. It is what lets us say "We are people, we are sane, and we are being slaughtered silently." More than just a shield, our identity is a weapon! We were the ones who started the LGBT rights movement in the first place! We didn't fight and die for teenage children on tumblr to appropriate our struggle! We started our own movement, and by God we'll finish it.

If people who think they're really animals want recognition they can fight their own damn battles. Their participation hinders our struggle, and every day we waste another one of us gets killed. So I actually encourage those tumblr warriors to be warriors! To fight for themselves!

I treat people as they identify, it's only polite. Even those who think they are animals. That doesn't mean that, as animals, I forgive them for the harm they've done to me and mine.

Do you know what we do to animals who hurt people, Hetrio? We put them down.

By including attention seeking teenage brats you diminish the rest of us. You want so badly to be special you fuck the rest of us over. This isn't respectability politics. This is you saying that gay men are morally obligated to stand with NAMBLA. This is you saying that trans people are morally obligated to stand with bestiality fetishists.

Stuff like demisexuality simply does not exist. It is a myth! The only people who take that label as their own are either fools or dyed in the wool reactionaries! No other explanation fits the way they take up space that gay men and women so dearly deserve for being something impossible!

In fairness, asexuality does certainly exist: in a tiny fraction of the population. The vast majority of people who claim to be either are lying to cover for their own embarrassment at being unable to find a single person to fuck or are actively mendacious. You would have me stand with them?? With liars and attention-seekers who cause harm to us? To my kith and kin?? For the love of God, Hetrio, have you no respect for the value of our identities? Have you no notion of how integral to it is to our heart and soul? Why then, would you seek to render our identity utterly without worth?!

If you make everyone transgender, then no one is transgender.

And then us real trannies are even more fucked than before.

We want nothing to do with you. Undoubtedly transgender you may be, but your childish antics have a cost that the rest of us have to pay for.

You've blood on your hands, Hetrio. Best wash it off before it stains you permanently.

Emphasis mine.

[Tsaraine]

With regards to "tranny/trannie"; the status of this word in the transgender community, last time we Mods had to discuss it, was disputed. Some people regard it as a horrible slur, other people are actively working to reclaim the word. So we came to the conclusion that the word itself is not actionable - it depends on context. In this context, The Steel Magnolia is clearly identifying as transgender. As such, I don't think it's actionable.

As for trollnaming, this is a ruling which gets a bit misunderstood by people. It was instituted to stop people going "Player X is a troll, don't engage with them" and thereby derailing or shutting down the conversation. Yet here we see The Steel Magnolia definitely engaging with Degenerate Heart of HetRio's ideas. So while yes, she's calling Degenerate Heart of HetRio a troll, she's not trollnaming as such.

All in all, I don't see this as needing Moderator attention.

~ Tsar the Mod.

[The Steel Magnolia]

With regards to "tranny/trannie"; the status of this word in the transgender community, last time we Mods had to discuss it, was disputed. Some people regard it as a horrible slur, other people are actively working to reclaim the word. So we came to the conclusion that the word itself is not actionable - it depends on context. In this context, The Steel Magnolia is clearly identifying as transgender. As such, I don't think it's actionable.

As for trollnaming, this is a ruling which gets a bit misunderstood by people. It was instituted to stop people going "Player X is a troll, don't engage with them" and thereby derailing or shutting down the conversation. Yet here we see The Steel Magnolia definitely engaging with Degenerate Heart of HetRio's ideas. So while yes, he's calling Degenerate Heart of HetRio a troll, he's not trollnaming as such.

All in all, I don't see this as needing Moderator attention.

~ Tsar the Mod.

She for reference, and thank you.

[Tsaraine]

My apologies: I will edit accordingly.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

How have y'all not put Hetrio on ignore yet? You put other trolls on ignore, no?


Frankly Hetrio, while I'm sure you fundamentally believe everything you're saying here, I don't actually care. What I care about is the fact that by admitting everyone under the sun into our umbrella you diminish the rest of us. Demisexuality and its ilk make a mockery of the struggles real live gay and lesbian people go through. Increasingly inane idiocy like "gendersilence" or "zodiacsexuality" or whatever the fuck? You know what that does? It completely devalues and destroys the very real struggle that actual transgender people undergo! You understand that what our lives can be like, have you no compassion? Why then, do you want to destroy the only thing that protects us? Our identity is a shield against the world. It is what lets us say "We are people, we are sane, and we are being slaughtered silently." More than just a shield, our identity is a weapon! We were the ones who started the LGBT rights movement in the first place! We didn't fight and die for teenage children on tumblr to appropriate our struggle! We started our own movement, and by God we'll finish it.

If people who think they're really animals want recognition they can fight their own damn battles. Their participation hinders our struggle, and every day we waste another one of us gets killed. So I actually encourage those tumblr warriors to be warriors! To fight for themselves!

I treat people as they identify, it's only polite. Even those who think they are animals. That doesn't mean that, as animals, I forgive them for the harm they've done to me and mine.

Do you know what we do to animals who hurt people, Hetrio? We put them down.

By including attention seeking teenage brats you diminish the rest of us. You want so badly to be special you fuck the rest of us over. This isn't respectability politics. This is you saying that gay men are morally obligated to stand with NAMBLA. This is you saying that trans people are morally obligated to stand with bestiality fetishists.

Stuff like demisexuality simply does not exist. It is a myth! The only people who take that label as their own are either fools or dyed in the wool reactionaries! No other explanation fits the way they take up space that gay men and women so dearly deserve for being something impossible!

In fairness, asexuality does certainly exist: in a tiny fraction of the population. The vast majority of people who claim to be either are lying to cover for their own embarrassment at being unable to find a single person to fuck or are actively mendacious. You would have me stand with them?? With liars and attention-seekers who cause harm to us? To my kith and kin?? For the love of God, Hetrio, have you no respect for the value of our identities? Have you no notion of how integral to it is to our heart and soul? Why then, would you seek to render our identity utterly without worth?!

If you make everyone transgender, then no one is transgender.

And then us real trannies are even more fucked than before.

We want nothing to do with you. Undoubtedly transgender you may be, but your childish antics have a cost that the rest of us have to pay for.

You've blood on your hands, Hetrio. Best wash it off before it stains you permanently.

I'm not sure what to make of it, discussion or report, so I decided to make it a report. If it isn't actionable, I'll understand the decision of the mods

EDIT: Underlined the parts I found most questionable in the post.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

viewtopic.php?p=22864969#p22864969

[Cerillium]

viewtopic.php?p=22865071#p22865071 slandering demisexuals, demanding proof
viewtopic.php?p=22865109#p22865109 implying demisexuals/support of demisexuality = delusional
viewtopic.php?p=22865127#p22865127 their own captured post states it's a duty to discriminate against young demisexuals, and the linked post implies that the youth are deceived etc.
viewtopic.php?p=22865310#p22865310 dig on HetRio
viewtopic.php?p=22865317#p22865317 sniping HetRio
viewtopic.php?p=22866039#p22866039 whines about lacking proof throughout thread, is handed proof. Balks and refuses to discuss it.
viewtopic.php?p=22866294#p22866294 Flamebaiting. See spoiler below. "The demisexuals are further down the list, somewhere after repentant criminals but before furries...So do me a solid here. Suck it up, shut up, let the actual minorities take the lead, and we'll get to you when we have time. In the meantime, I have neither the interest nor the inclination in spending time money and energy on those who will be perfectly fine on their own."
viewtopic.php?p=22866389#p22866389 More attitude. "Also good job appropriating the asexual label too!"

It ceases to be "argue it down" once it crosses the line into "no matter what you say, I'm going to slam this group of people". People are entitled to an opinion. People aren't entitled to spend all night antagonizing a group. There is no tone of voice in text. However, grouping all the posts together, it comes across as a tirade.

I'm transgender. I'm damn well allowed to say it.

There's room in this movement for everyone who needs us. There's ought not be room for those who "only" want to hang onto our coattails and drag us down into poverty and criminality so they can get their fifteen minutes in the sun. To do so is to deny help to those who need it. It's the moral equivalent of #alllivesmatter. It's spraying a fire hose at a building standing true while the building next to it burns, because "there's more than enough water for all houses!"

To 'discriminate' against tumblr asexuals and otherkin, transethnics and demisexuals is not a moral failing. To 'discriminate' against such actors is a moral duty.

Underline mine. When is it permissible to promote discrimination? As a grey-a/demisexual male, I take extreme offense to this continual catty behavior. This is no different than Transexual men don't belong in the LGBT group because it's their choice to pretend to be women or It's our moral duty to discriminate against gay men because orientation is a choice.

Her posts prove that there is discrimination in the community. Time and time again we pointed out that no one is looking to be a special snowflake - it was important that asexuals and demisexuals could use the same support and acceptance from friends and family as gays and lesbians receive. Her opinion is reminiscent of bisexuals don't need recognition because they can choose; no one was ever beaten up for being bi. I don't know if any of our Mods are bi. If they are, they can relate to how hard we struggled to earn acceptance in the community.

You shouldn't have an issue with anyone. It's none of your business what transpires in someone's bedroom, nor what their sexuality entails. It's also not your business to determine if support groups should be funded for people. If you don't want to support a demisexual youth, don't support him. If you don't want your money to go towards that effort, clearly mark it in the memo line of your cheque. That level of discrimination does prove that demi's belong in the LGBT group however.

Ah yes the great plight of the demisexual.

Being laughed at. What utter tragedy. How many transgender people have died as a result of transphobia again? Because I dare say it's probably a lot higher than the fucking 'demisexuals.'

What you don't understand is that it is my business. It's the business of gay men, it's the business of lesbians, it's the business of bisexuals and pansexuals and transgender individuals of all genders and sexualities.
The straight girl who's faithful to her boyfriend does not belong in the community purely because she's fucking faithful! She doesn't belong because she doesn't look at other men! She doesn't belong at all! It's the queer community, and you'll forgive me if I want to restrict that to queer people.

Though if I wasn't, I'd probably start identifying as "demifriendly", get some of those sweet sweet oppression points. I'm only friends with people I want to be friends with! Stop oppressing me!

Straight cis folk who think they can barge in because they have an 'abnormal' sex life can fuck right off thanks. Newsflash, our entire culture isn't actually about sex!

It's about love, and gender identity, and what we make from those two common things. The love a 'demisexual' might feel is no different than anyone else's, their process of identifying their gender identity is no different than anyone else's.

Start a support group if you want, but for the love of God stop demanding the rest of us join your pity parade. Forgive me, but we have real work to be done.

It also doesn't matter to me what anyone's orientation or sexuality is. Community is community. We can't pick and choose based on our personal feelings. We'd become no better than the intolerant fools that damn gay marriage, otherwise. I'll continue to support the community via fundraising. Every youth deserves the opportunity to find support.

Everyone deserves support, but some of us need that support rather more than others, no?

Here's the thing. I really don't care what you identify as so long as you don't fuck over the rest of us. This 'transtender' stuff? That fucks over the rest of us by making us look crazy. This 'demisexual' bs? Starts fucking over the rest of us the second you start equating it to sexuality or gender identity. It's not remotely comparable and we have no obligation to treat it as such. In fact, we have a moral duty to ensure that the most support goes to those who need it most!

The demisexuals are further down the list, somewhere after repentant criminals but before furries. You at least don't deserve to be mocked for your sexual preferences. You're not that weird. Or weird at all, really. It's hardly a bad thing for you to only be into someone you're into. I mean I don't believe for a second you have no attraction outside that because lol, imma need some research to verify that, but I don't really care given that the worst you'll get is a snide remark or two.

Actually, that's a lie. You wanna know the worst plight you'll ever face as a result of your demisexuality?

Me. Calling you out right here, right now. Literally nothing in this world will do anything worse because literally nobody in the world gives a flying fuck.

So do me a solid here. Suck it up, shut up, let the actual minorities take the lead, and we'll get to you when we have time. In the meantime, I have neither the interest nor the inclination in spending time money and energy on those who will be perfectly fine on their own.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

With regards to "tranny/trannie"; the status of this word in the transgender community, last time we Mods had to discuss it, was disputed. Some people regard it as a horrible slur, other people are actively working to reclaim the word. So we came to the conclusion that the word itself is not actionable - it depends on context. In this context, The Steel Magnolia is clearly identifying as transgender. As such, I don't think it's actionable.

As for trollnaming, this is a ruling which gets a bit misunderstood by people. It was instituted to stop people going "Player X is a troll, don't engage with them" and thereby derailing or shutting down the conversation. Yet here we see The Steel Magnolia definitely engaging with Degenerate Heart of HetRio's ideas. So while yes, she's calling Degenerate Heart of HetRio a troll, she's not trollnaming as such.

All in all, I don't see this as needing Moderator attention.

~ Tsar the Mod.

As someone who filed a similar report I'd like to ask if it is possible to add this clarification in the One Stop Rules Shop for future reference by people coming to the site. Given the context I also made the mistake to categorize it as trollnaming since people have been ruled against and warned because they called someone a troll, and some of us are unsure how to react when we actually would like to call out a troll yet keep discussing their ideas.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Taking a look at all this, please be patient.

[Cerillium]

Retracted. Will await decision.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Sorry, it's the holiday season, and we've got limited activity at various times on account from folks. What I'd really like is input from the folks this most affects on how they'd like the thread, or a splitting of the thread, handled. In thread seems to be getting off track - I'll post a redirect to it here.

[Cerillium]

Thank you, Nathi.

Re: splitting asexuality from the Mod-sanctioned LGBT thread.

Asexuality/grey-a are not apart from LGBT discussions. A grey-a person can be homosexual in orientation but asexual in sexuality. Some asexuals feel kinship with the LGBT community because they face the same taunting and harassment during their youth. They mature into adulthood feeling extremely alone. There is discrimination there but this isn't the thread for discussing it.

Asexuals aren't asking to be special snowflakes nor are we asking for the LGBT community to throw money at asexual youth. We aren't asking the IRS to stop discriminating against some of us for a lack of children or spouses. We aren't asking for special privileges. We do have the right to ask that we not be grouped with the furry fandom or other groups; we are not a subculture. We aren't a culture at all. Rather, we comprise a small percentage of all cultures, including the LGBT community. Like the rest of the world, our sexuality is innate.

What we want is for common sense to triumph. Asexuality is natural. It isn't shameful. It doesn't mean a person is "broken" or "physically weak"; it doesn't make a man less of a man, it doesn't make a woman a frigid bitch. We would prefer that asexuality awareness be taught alongside heterosexual/homosexual orientation and sexual awareness. It would go a long way towards preventing discrimination. (It goes a long way towards preventing marital rape as well.)

Not all asexuals are the same. There isn't just black and white. The asexual spectrum is difficult to understand however it doesn't mean the asexual is "normal and able to fuck if the conditions are right". Love - the bonds felt between two individuals - isn't the same as libido. Some asexual people fall in love. It is our love that leads us to the willingness to satisfy our partner. We're willing to engage in an activity that brings them pleasure, even if we find it dull. It's selfless. Some have a libido but are turned off by the thought of being with another person. Some only have meaningful and pleasurable sex after they've found the "perfect" partner. We can't paint everyone with the same brush. Not all X are Y when it comes to anyone's orientation or sexuality. Not all gay men are bears. Not all lesbians are masculine. Some drag queens are faux queens.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I feel asexuality can be separate for the moment, at least try it that way for a couple of months because it is a significant phenomenon that, as Cerillium said, encompasses all walks of life. I know I'm the last one to talk about asexuals here given that I'm not, I just have issues lol, but still I'm not sure if asexuals will agree with me that asexuals are a group of their own and not within the LGBT groupings given many asexuals don't belong given they have not a sexual orientation difference but, rather, a sexual expression difference.

[Cerillium]

I feel asexuality can be separate for the moment, at least try it that way for a couple of months because it is a significant phenomenon that, as Cerillium said, encompasses all walks of life. I know I'm the last one to talk about asexuals here given that I'm not, I just have issues lol, but still I'm not sure if asexuals will agree with me that asexuals are a group of their own and not within the LGBT groupings given many asexuals don't belong given they have not a sexual orientation difference but, rather, a sexual expression difference.

I agree but also disagree.

The beauty of asexuality is that it seldom comes up unless someone else broaches the topic.

I don't think we should bar it from the thread. Perhaps we can draw the line at acknowledging it exists, acknowledging people have various feelings about it, and then moving on. What sparked the irritation that brought on the argument was one person posting based upon their experience on another forum. NS is better than that.

Besides, if we must belabor a point, put it in a sig for all the world to see. It cuts down on carpal tunnel syndrome.


@Nathi: could we change the topic to reflect Mod permitted discussion? It currently reads "report".

[Blekksprutia]

If people who think they're really animals want recognition they can fight their own damn battles. Their participation hinders our struggle, and every day we waste another one of us gets killed. So I actually encourage those tumblr warriors to be warriors! To fight for themselves!

I treat people as they identify, it's only polite. Even those who think they are animals. That doesn't mean that, as animals, I forgive them for the harm they've done to me and mine.

Do you know what we do to animals who hurt people, Hetrio? We put them down.

Does this count as advocating for the euthanization of people with species dysphoria? :/

[NERVUN]

I've split out the discussion, I'll move links around in thread, but I'd like to lock this to prevent duplication.

If someone has a question or appeal regarding the MODERATION report, please let us know and we'll unlock it for that.