Discussion: Have the mods gone far enough?

[Northwest Slobovia]

There should be thread ban and specific forum ban features.

That would be very hard to actually do.

It IS possible, but it would be a nightmare given that is dealing with the permissions for the forum, right now only Reppy can actually do that and there's no automated system.

Now, supposedly, the code is changing all the time so if there is a new release we might have those tools in the pocket, but for right now...

You mean changes to phpBB? As in, if somebody were to write a nice set of phpBB tools for y'all to use you'd be willing to try?

If it's just a cool-off, a 1-hour or 6-hour ban is probably more useful.

Probably, though as Fris has noted, the problem is catching.

I'm willing to accept that. If the short tit-calming bans have no more weight than the current unofficial warnings and temporary thread locks do, I think many people would be willing to accept that the short bans can't be applied uniformly.

[Esternial]

Or we clone Reppy and make the rest of the Mod team redundant *nod*

Sorry. There is only precedent to clone sheep.

...Oh.

OH. NO.

Forget I said anything.

[Mousebumples]

That would be very hard to actually do.

It IS possible, but it would be a nightmare given that is dealing with the permissions for the forum, right now only Reppy can actually do that and there's no automated system.

Now, supposedly, the code is changing all the time so if there is a new release we might have those tools in the pocket, but for right now...

You mean changes to phpBB? As in, if somebody were to write a nice set of phpBB tools for y'all to use you'd be willing to try?

Unless you mean a new release of phpBB forums ... I wouldn't count on it. [v] and the other techies have said before that each subsequent "edit" and "change" that they make to the base forum settings make it that much more of a nightmare to upgrade and add patches when official changes of that nature are released.

[Northwest Slobovia]

You mean changes to phpBB? As in, if somebody were to write a nice set of phpBB tools for y'all to use you'd be willing to try?

Unless you mean a new release of phpBB forums ... I wouldn't count on it. [v] and the other techies have said before that each subsequent "edit" and "change" that they make to the base forum settings make it that much more of a nightmare to upgrade and add patches when official changes of that nature are released.

I thought that's what Nerv was talking about. I wouldn't modify the base phpBB, but code a module for it. (Hypothetically, that is.) I've taken a look at the ones that are available; there was once an thread autolock one for example, but it's long since out of date.

I think being able to ban people from specific threads or fora would be useful, and if the tools exist for that in phpBB but are clumsy to use, it may not be hard to come up with slicker interface to them.

[Nazi Flower Power]

May be hard to enforce that, code-wise.

If possible, a one (or a bit longer) hour ban would be brilliant. Good for giving people a time out instead of a warning, and not as long as a one-day ban.

Yes, they're possible. I believe they're actually part of the mod toolkit now, but they're just not used much.

I've seen someone get a 6-hour ban, and I thought it was appropriate the way it was used in that case. I'm not sure why mods don't use them more often.

[Lost heros]

That would be very hard to actually do.

It IS possible, but it would be a nightmare given that is dealing with the permissions for the forum, right now only Reppy can actually do that and there's no automated system.

Now, supposedly, the code is changing all the time so if there is a new release we might have those tools in the pocket, but for right now...

Or we clone Reppy and make the rest of the Mod team redundant *nod*

A mod team made solely of Reppy. I can see it now. The beauty, the power, the Reppy-ness.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Seems a bit ... Reppetitive

Would the decisions made be ... Repputable?

I'm sure a lot of people would be ... Repprimanded.

[Esternial]

Or we clone Reppy and make the rest of the Mod team redundant *nod*

A mod team made solely of Reppy. I can see it now. The beauty, the power, the Reppy-ness.

I'm sorry, I just had to.

With that I'll cease my accidental sidetrack.

[Frisbeeteria]

I think being able to ban people from specific threads or fora would be useful, and if the tools exist for that in phpBB but are clumsy to use, it may not be hard to come up with slicker interface to them.

Therein lies the problem. Even with handy dandy tools, we can still only ban nations. There's nothing stopping someone from logging into or creating a new puppet ... and that's not a problem that's resolvable without a complete redesign of the game. So even if a player was to spend the time creating such a module, there's no particular value in installing it, as it's easy as anything to bypass it.

As has already been said, we're getting a major upgrade to the phpBB system sometime in the next few months. Until that's in place, technical speculation is kinda pointless.

[The Risen Jaguar Warriors]

I think being able to ban people from specific threads or fora would be useful, and if the tools exist for that in phpBB but are clumsy to use, it may not be hard to come up with slicker interface to them.

Therein lies the problem. Even with handy dandy tools, we can still only ban nations. There's nothing stopping someone from logging into or creating a new puppet ... and that's not a problem that's resolvable without a complete redesign of the game. So even if a player was to spend the time creating such a module, there's no particular value in installing it, as it's easy as anything to bypass it.

As has already been said, we're getting a major upgrade to the phpBB system sometime in the next few months. Until that's in place, technical speculation is kinda pointless.

Wht about IP bans...? o-o

Surely they work...?

[Alyakia]

Therein lies the problem. Even with handy dandy tools, we can still only ban nations. There's nothing stopping someone from logging into or creating a new puppet ... and that's not a problem that's resolvable without a complete redesign of the game. So even if a player was to spend the time creating such a module, there's no particular value in installing it, as it's easy as anything to bypass it.

As has already been said, we're getting a major upgrade to the phpBB system sometime in the next few months. Until that's in place, technical speculation is kinda pointless.

Wht about IP bans...? o-o

Surely they work...?

And no, don't suggest IP addresses - they're almost useless these days, thanks to multiple devices and roaming profiles.

[Northwest Slobovia]

I think being able to ban people from specific threads or fora would be useful, and if the tools exist for that in phpBB but are clumsy to use, it may not be hard to come up with slicker interface to them.

Therein lies the problem. Even with handy dandy tools, we can still only ban nations. There's nothing stopping someone from logging into or creating a new puppet ... and that's not a problem that's resolvable without a complete redesign of the game. So even if a player was to spend the time creating such a module, there's no particular value in installing it, as it's easy as anything to bypass it.

Well, somehow the game attempts to detect WA multis, so that part of the software exists, whatever its limitations. The forum can't, but that seems like a middleware problem: getting the two to talk to each other. Which seems like a job for a phpBB module.

As has already been said, we're getting a major upgrade to the phpBB system sometime in the next few months. Until that's in place, technical speculation is kinda pointless.

...specially since it seems phpBB.com has been hacked and their servers are offline. Does make looking at the specs for the new/forthcoming version challenging.

[Arcturus Novus]

Better than 4chan's legion of odious moderation officials. While I'm inclined to agree that not every warning or ban is justified, it's not like we have utterly discriminatory or malevolent mods here.

[Monlyth]

Not that my word is foolproof, but I haven't noticed all that many questionable actions from them. In fact, I can't think of more than two throughout my time here and it's been so long that can't particularly recalled the details concerning either.

Just be grateful they're not tyrannical with their powers. Remember they're not paid to deal with everyone's bullshit antics while keeping a level head about it, so I'd cut them a fair bit of slack if or when they do slip up.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Not that my word is foolproof, but I haven't noticed all that many questionable actions from them. In fact, I can't think of more than two throughout my time here and it's been so long that can't particularly recalled the details concerning either.

Just be grateful they're not tyrannical with their powers. Remember they're not paid to deal with everyone's bullshit antics while keeping a level head about it, so I'd cut them a fair bit of slack if or when they do slip up.

Some people read too much into the few cases where the mods have really fucked up and then they act like those rulings are somehow representative of moderation's overall standards.

[Esternial]

I think being able to ban people from specific threads or fora would be useful, and if the tools exist for that in phpBB but are clumsy to use, it may not be hard to come up with slicker interface to them.

Therein lies the problem. Even with handy dandy tools, we can still only ban nations. There's nothing stopping someone from logging into or creating a new puppet ... and that's not a problem that's resolvable without a complete redesign of the game. So even if a player was to spend the time creating such a module, there's no particular value in installing it, as it's easy as anything to bypass it.

As has already been said, we're getting a major upgrade to the phpBB system sometime in the next few months. Until that's in place, technical speculation is kinda pointless.

You could use that same argument to discredit any ban, regardless of length.

Getting around one's ban through a puppet is forbidden and will result in a heavier punishment, and Mod's should have the tools to verify any ban-evasion, no?

[Shazbotdom]

As has already been said, we're getting a major upgrade to the phpBB system sometime in the next few months. Until that's in place, technical speculation is kinda pointless.

You guys are going to upgrade to latest version of phpBB when it becomes available outside of Beta?

[Ofuudin]

What if.
We had.
The NSA install their moderation software?
I'm sure they'd love to help Max out.
As well as everyone else here.
Very intimately, of course.
 
 
 
I'm sorry, I tried making a funny.

[Ofuudin]

Getting around one's ban through a puppet is forbidden and will result in a heavier punishment, and Mod's should have the tools to verify any ban-evasion, no?

A problem, someone may make a puppet nation that's clearly just an out-of-the-blue knock off, but they could also make a very different and dynamic puppet that one would mistake as another person.
This brings up the issue of people sharing a computer, which is allowed.

Wouldn't want to accidentally ban multiple people on one computer/network, right?

The only way I can see the moderation crew banning the potential puppet(s) with the utmost certainty that it's not another person is if they get some CIA or Walter O'brien level recognition software.

[Esternial]

Getting around one's ban through a puppet is forbidden and will result in a heavier punishment, and Mod's should have the tools to verify any ban-evasion, no?

A problem, someone may make a puppet nation that's clearly just an out-of-the-blue knock off, but they could also make a very different and dynamic puppet that one would mistake as another person.
This brings up the issue of people sharing a computer, which is allowed.

Wouldn't want to accidentally ban multiple people on one computer/network, right?

The only way I can see the moderation crew banning the potential puppet(s) with the utmost certainty that it's not another person is if they get some CIA or Walter O'brien level recognition software.

Eh, this procedure already exist. I'm not suggesting anything new.

I've checked the OSRS yet I found nothing about the dangers of sharing a computer/IP address. Maybe something worth adding?

[Frisbeeteria]

Getting around one's ban through a puppet is forbidden and will result in a heavier punishment, and Mod's should have the tools to verify any ban-evasion, no?

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. There's not an alarm that goes off with flashing lights that alerts us when someone sneaks back in. Somebody has to spot them, then report them, then wait for us to verify it's actually a ban breaker. There's nothing automated about the process, nor does it lend itself to automation or scripting. It depends on the Mark One eyeball and a combination of cleverness and judgement. If it were all cut and dried, we could simply automate the process and there wouldn't be any moderation mistakes. Since it don't work that way, you're going to have to accept a few mistakes along the way as the price of doing business.

[NERVUN]

Therein lies the problem. Even with handy dandy tools, we can still only ban nations. There's nothing stopping someone from logging into or creating a new puppet ... and that's not a problem that's resolvable without a complete redesign of the game. So even if a player was to spend the time creating such a module, there's no particular value in installing it, as it's easy as anything to bypass it.

Well, somehow the game attempts to detect WA multis, so that part of the software exists, whatever its limitations. The forum can't, but that seems like a middleware problem: getting the two to talk to each other. Which seems like a job for a phpBB module.

The WA stuff however gets more data to play with that forum accounts do not.

*Hate to be a nasayer, because honestly the ability to just make a new puppet aggravates the hell out of me as well, but for all the MOD POWARS... there be limits.

[Esternial]

Getting around one's ban through a puppet is forbidden and will result in a heavier punishment, and Mod's should have the tools to verify any ban-evasion, no?

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. There's not an alarm that goes off with flashing lights that alerts us when someone sneaks back in. Somebody has to spot them, then report them, then wait for us to verify it's actually a ban breaker. There's nothing automated about the process, nor does it lend itself to automation or scripting. It depends on the Mark One eyeball and a combination of cleverness and judgement. If it were all cut and dried, we could simply automate the process and there wouldn't be any moderation mistakes. Since it don't work that way, you're going to have to accept a few mistakes along the way as the price of doing business.

Apparently I gave off the wrong impression, because I'm very well aware the Mod team relies on regular forumgoers to spot forumwide ban evaders.

It has the same weakness as the current forumwide ban system. The possibility of being caught and getting a harsher punishment should act as a deterrent to prevent people from making puppets and evading their bans, which is why that procedure already exists. It's like putting people out on bail. They're free to go elsewhere as long as they don't go to that specific thread. If they do they get a heavier penalty.

Otherwise you can just as well go straight for DEATs if you prefer inescapable results.

The WA stuff however gets more data to play with that forum accounts do not.

*Hate to be a nasayer, because honestly the ability to just make a new puppet aggravates the hell out of me as well, but for all the MOD POWARS... there be limits.

I don't really see the big issue with that. Sure, someone can evade their ban to post on the forum. That means they're either very stupid of careful enough not to pop up on your radar, and to do that they have to avoid making a fuss. That alone is good training in restraint. If they do make a fuss, they pop up on the Moddar (patent pending) and get zapped into oblivion.

No matter how you cut it, the ban gets results. It might not be a watertight tool to prevent a player from posting in the forums, but it will certainly either prevents players from being dicks or help the Mods to pulverize said dicks.

[Imperializt Russia]

Getting around one's ban through a puppet is forbidden and will result in a heavier punishment, and Mod's should have the tools to verify any ban-evasion, no?

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. There's not an alarm that goes off with flashing lights that alerts us when someone sneaks back in. Somebody has to spot them, then report them, then wait for us to verify it's actually a ban breaker. There's nothing automated about the process, nor does it lend itself to automation or scripting. It depends on the Mark One eyeball and a combination of cleverness and judgement. If it were all cut and dried, we could simply automate the process and there wouldn't be any moderation mistakes. Since it don't work that way, you're going to have to accept a few mistakes along the way as the price of doing business.

Is there any possibility to use the "four secret herbs and spices" of WA verification (minus email, ofc) to assess for ban evaders?

[Esternial]

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. There's not an alarm that goes off with flashing lights that alerts us when someone sneaks back in. Somebody has to spot them, then report them, then wait for us to verify it's actually a ban breaker. There's nothing automated about the process, nor does it lend itself to automation or scripting. It depends on the Mark One eyeball and a combination of cleverness and judgement. If it were all cut and dried, we could simply automate the process and there wouldn't be any moderation mistakes. Since it don't work that way, you're going to have to accept a few mistakes along the way as the price of doing business.

Is there any possibility to use the "four secret herbs and spices" of WA verification (minus email, ofc) to assess for ban evaders?

Well, it depends on what data the Mods can monitor on the forum.

A system that notifies the Mods whether a currently banned IP is accessing the forums would be spiffy, but I'm not sure that is possible.