Switching WA/ Delegate Powers on non WA

[NOrTh pAcIfiC spY]

A little annoying the lack of notice etc. but apart from that - nothing much else to say.

I don't particularly like the change, or hate it either, we'll adapt. I'd say it'll be a bit (probably a few weeks to a month) before tagging is back to normal, after the RO change thing which I believe is happening in tandem with this.

Any change is a good change tbh, it shows that the game isn't exclusively in maintenance mode.

For next time, a little warning/even a single post would be appreciated. I'm not really sure what the change was meant to achieve tbh.

[Luziyca]

Okay, in my opinion, I think that they could keep the power, but if they rejoin, they would still lose their endorsements and position.

[Kaboomlandia]

Just woke up...what got changed?

[We Are Not the NSA]

A little annoying the lack of notice etc. but apart from that - nothing much else to say.

I don't particularly like the change, or hate it either, we'll adapt. I'd say it'll be a bit (probably a few weeks to a month) before tagging is back to normal, after the RO change thing which I believe is happening in tandem with this.

Any change is a good change tbh, it shows that the game isn't exclusively in maintenance mode.

For next time, a little warning/even a single post would be appreciated. I'm not really sure what the change was meant to achieve tbh.

Sums up my opinion. I would have preferred that the change simply not occur, but I don't get to make the decisions, and we'll be able to adapt. At least it isn't that stupid 'nobody can join the WA during update' idea. It's a blow to R/D, but not a finishing hit; we can still tag albeit with some more complicated factors involved, and occupations shouldn't be affected very much.

The only grievance I have with this (okay, not the only grievance, but the only one I feel like voicing) is the lack of warning before it was implemented. All we got was a hint that this was coming half a month ago, with no actual information on the details of when the change was taking place. It's like waking up and finding the laws of gravity have changed: we'll get used to it, but a little heads up would have been nice.

[Jakker]

As Cora said, raiders will adjust as we always do.

It is obvious that this change is correlated with the addition of Regional Officers. I would strongly hope that this change means an end to the possibility of ROs being immediately dismissed. Otherwise, both occupational raiding and tag raiding will be negatively impacted.

Edit: I echo North Pacific Spy's confusion of what this change is meant to achieve. Was this because it was decided that immediately dismissive of delegate powers upon resigning is more realistic? To cut down on tag raids? To utilize ROs more?

And what is the goal of this change? Any insight here would be greatly appreciated.

[Luna Amore]

Excuse me Administration team for asking this but why was the Gameplay Community, specifically the R/D Community, not asked for input on this? We're the ones who deal with this daily and we're the ones who rely on the system to work smoothly.

You were. Sedge telegraphed this change with this post:

Thanks for the feedback on this. There are three options we have:

1. The current situation: Nations retain their Delegacy (and powers) until the next update, regardless of their WA status.
2. The primary suggestion made in this thread: Delegate nations that resign from the WA immediately lose the Delegacy and associated powers and cannot regain them without being re-elected to the Delegacy.
3. An alternative suggestion made: Nations retain their Delegate status until the next update, but must be in the WA to use the associated powers. Thus if you resign from the WA, you cannot use Delegate powers - but if you rejoin before the next update, you can do so.

We are looking to implement #2. This is a reasonably simple change (admin's words), so will not take long to do once I give them the go-ahead. Before we do that, I just want to make sure that we've considered all the consequences.

• The primary reason to make this change is to address the illogical situation of a non-WA nation retaining WA Delegate status and powers. This includes both the "gameplay" powers (such as executive status in founderless regions) and the ability to vote and approve proposals in the WA.
• This also prevents a single person holding multiple Delegacies concurrently, including the ability to vote multiple times in the WA.
• While #3 also addresses both the above situations, it fails the simplicity test - #2 is much easier to understand than having nations pop back into the WA to immediately regain the Delegacy.
• This will have an effect on tagging, as tags are generally "enacted" once update is over, and Delegate nations have resigned. It is likely to somewhat slow down the process of tagging. This is considered a benefit. While we do not want to eliminate tagging entirely - it is a useful training tool, and a niche group of players enjoy it as a regular activity, ultimately it sees a very small amount of people doing an inordinate amount of spammy disruption to the game.
• Please consider interaction with Regional Officers. Currently new Delegates can immediately remove Officers and appoint new ones. If taggers immediately appoint themselves as an RO with full powers, they will then be able to make their usual changes (WFE, RMB suppression, embassies etc.) after update regardless of having resigned from the WA. While discussion of the implementation of ROs does not belong here, it's worth thinking about this and feeding back your thoughts in the RO thread.
• Delegates who accidently resign from the WA will find it harder to regain the Delegacy. It does happen, albeit rarely. Currently they already lose all their endorsements, and losing the Delegate status as well will multiply their problems of regaining it. This is a sufficiently rare occurrence that it won't affect our decision to implement, but if someone thinks tweaks are needed to reduce accidental resignations, please speak up.
• Currently when a Delegate resigns from the WA, they're listed at the top of the region page as having resigned. This would require a visual change to remove their name entirely when they resign from the WA - the region would instead be listed as having "WA Delegate: none".

In fact, that post answers everything about the change.

Here's a link to the RO thread for those who want to comment on how ROs are affected by this change: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=356700

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

And yet if we got there and bring up this, we'll be directed back here more than likely. RO's affect this, this affects RO's, it's all one big ball of string

[Xoriet]

So killing off detagging is a good idea, TITO? I'm sure the natives of the tagged regions are absolutely thrilled by this news. Well done, people who inspired this. You may not see the ability to switch and hit multiple regions as a detagging force as a big deal, but people who like having their regions restored and do appreciate the help defenders provide may not agree with you.

Permanent graffiti, anyone?

Hurting natives and defenders is worth making tagging slightly more difficult? I know your faction wants to see R/D die completely, but seriously. So well done I want to applaud you, and this is speaking extremely sarcastically from the viewpoint of a former defender.

(Switched places )

[Cora II]

Snip

No need dramatize too far.

If tagging raiders can do team work and use ROs, so can detaggers.

First practical test: viewtopic.php?p=26771462#p26771462

WAD pointman authorized team fellow as VC, and tags were made together. Detaggers can't do team work, eh?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

You know, balance wise, I also don't think this does much.

Here's my thinking -

even if this is made as hardcore/strict as possible, all you're doing is slowing tagging down, after each hit / between hits

There is no greater chance for defenders to stop any given tag, and if anything, it hurts defender detags more than raider tags - it's far faster to slap up a copy-paste WFE before resigning and moving on than it is to actually look up a previous regional RMB and replace that. You're slowing the potential detag rate more than you're slowing the potential tag rate. It's not a change that make defenders any more able/likely to return fire, and rather than bringing balance/activity, serves merely to lessen R/D activity as whole.

(furthermore, on an earlier note, raiders are more likely to use the RO loophole than defenders - since you cannot remove yourself as an RO, detagging using that method would leave a trace - the RO - where standard practice these days is to leave no record of tagging, just the pristine state. )

[[violet]]

I'm away until Wednesday, so posting this quickly on my phone. As you can see, I had let people know that we were looking to implement this. I had intended to post an announcement when it actually was, but have been out of the loop the last few days. I know we'd tested this on our test version of NS but hadn't realised it was being implemented now in the game itself.

Gah, sorry Sedge, my fault, I updated the server and this came through as well. Didn't meant to push the button on it while you were away.

[Mad-eye Jack]

This change will likely result in no significant impact. I don't get the crying over this other than there was no official warning. This is a blip compared to how the game fundamentally changed with the addition of ROs. Taggers and detaggers alike will be able to carry on much the same as they have and neither side comes out more advantaged or disadvantaged by this.

[RiderSyl]

I'm away until Wednesday, so posting this quickly on my phone. As you can see, I had let people know that we were looking to implement this. I had intended to post an announcement when it actually was, but have been out of the loop the last few days. I know we'd tested this on our test version of NS but hadn't realised it was being implemented now in the game itself.

Gah, sorry Sedge, my fault, I updated the server and this came through as well. Didn't meant to push the button on it while you were away.

[violet] unfit as delegate of server! Coup server 2016!

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'm away until Wednesday, so posting this quickly on my phone. As you can see, I had let people know that we were looking to implement this. I had intended to post an announcement when it actually was, but have been out of the loop the last few days. I know we'd tested this on our test version of NS but hadn't realised it was being implemented now in the game itself.

Gah, sorry Sedge, my fault, I updated the server and this came through as well. Didn't meant to push the button on it while you were away.

sorry for potato, but I have essays to write

[Ravania Ultra]

This change will likely result in no significant impact. I don't get the crying over this other than there was no official warning. This is a blip compared to how the game fundamentally changed with the addition of ROs. Taggers and detaggers alike will be able to carry on much the same as they have and neither side comes out more advantaged or disadvantaged by this.

This isn't entirely correct, to detag a region takes at least double the time you need to tag a region. (e.g. unsuppressing= two clicks, suppressing= one click)
So if RO's can't be appointed on becoming delegate (which I fully support, but will use as long as the loophole exists) detagging will be slower than tagging.

[Marselesk]

This change will likely result in no significant impact. I don't get the crying over this other than there was no official warning. This is a blip compared to how the game fundamentally changed with the addition of ROs. Taggers and detaggers alike will be able to carry on much the same as they have and neither side comes out more advantaged or disadvantaged by this.

This isn't entirely correct, to detag a region takes at least double the time you need to tag a region. (e.g. unsuppressing= two clicks, suppressing= one click)
So if RO's can't be appointed on becoming delegate (which I fully support, but will use as long as the loophole exists) detagging will be slower than tagging.

It doesn't slow them down that much, though. I can see raiders ditching the act of crashing embassies in an attempt to waste less time on tagging, should the ROs have delays on appointment. So let's say that the average raider point takes 15-20 seconds to tag the region(if we don't include embassies). The average defender point would take around 25-30 seconds to detag it, if they have the correct information prepared. This would mean that defenders can detag a rough estimate of 70%(and more if they play their cards right) of an average tag raid. That's not a bad score, i'd say.

[Cora II]

Kleo, withdrawing of embassies is one of most important things in tags, along with WFE as it's force multiplier that increase an 'impact' of a tag, often relatively diminishing.

From tag raider's perspective recent changes could lead a situation where its rational course of action start hit targets where such force multipliers exist, even then it leads dramatic changes in number of hits made.

If RO authorization delay will be introduced then its going to be very frustrating to other team members to watch aside when one fellow must hurry with his/hers tasks. Other method to improve limited tagging/de-tagging results is then systematic use of multiple subteam tactics, where a pointman / WAD is left behind to do the work in a region, while others continue to next one. That however is an option only for teams of 3 or more members.

[RiderSyl]

The pre-existing behavior was actively used in gameplay. Admin was inclined to leave it alone before. Should've left it alone this time.

If your game has loopholes that are exploited to form minigames, and those minigames have been accepted to the point of providing them their own official subforum and regional tags, then as long as the loopholes are not dangerously game-breaking, they shouldn't be fixed.

Now that my opinion is out of the way, I have a question. Were regional officers a planned loophole for the invasion minigame?
I ask this seriously, because with this loophole "closed", the minigame wouldn't have had an alternative if not for the implementation of regional officers.

[PrussianEmpire]

Excuse me Administration team for asking this but why was the Gameplay Community, specifically the R/D Community, not asked for input on this? We're the ones who deal with this daily and we're the ones who rely on the system to work smoothly.

You were. Sedge telegraphed this change with this post:

Thanks for the feedback on this. There are three options we have:

1. The current situation: Nations retain their Delegacy (and powers) until the next update, regardless of their WA status.
2. The primary suggestion made in this thread: Delegate nations that resign from the WA immediately lose the Delegacy and associated powers and cannot regain them without being re-elected to the Delegacy.
3. An alternative suggestion made: Nations retain their Delegate status until the next update, but must be in the WA to use the associated powers. Thus if you resign from the WA, you cannot use Delegate powers - but if you rejoin before the next update, you can do so.

We are looking to implement #2. This is a reasonably simple change (admin's words), so will not take long to do once I give them the go-ahead. Before we do that, I just want to make sure that we've considered all the consequences.

• The primary reason to make this change is to address the illogical situation of a non-WA nation retaining WA Delegate status and powers. This includes both the "gameplay" powers (such as executive status in founderless regions) and the ability to vote and approve proposals in the WA.
• This also prevents a single person holding multiple Delegacies concurrently, including the ability to vote multiple times in the WA.
• While #3 also addresses both the above situations, it fails the simplicity test - #2 is much easier to understand than having nations pop back into the WA to immediately regain the Delegacy.
• This will have an effect on tagging, as tags are generally "enacted" once update is over, and Delegate nations have resigned. It is likely to somewhat slow down the process of tagging. This is considered a benefit. While we do not want to eliminate tagging entirely - it is a useful training tool, and a niche group of players enjoy it as a regular activity, ultimately it sees a very small amount of people doing an inordinate amount of spammy disruption to the game.
• Please consider interaction with Regional Officers. Currently new Delegates can immediately remove Officers and appoint new ones. If taggers immediately appoint themselves as an RO with full powers, they will then be able to make their usual changes (WFE, RMB suppression, embassies etc.) after update regardless of having resigned from the WA. While discussion of the implementation of ROs does not belong here, it's worth thinking about this and feeding back your thoughts in the RO thread.
• Delegates who accidently resign from the WA will find it harder to regain the Delegacy. It does happen, albeit rarely. Currently they already lose all their endorsements, and losing the Delegate status as well will multiply their problems of regaining it. This is a sufficiently rare occurrence that it won't affect our decision to implement, but if someone thinks tweaks are needed to reduce accidental resignations, please speak up.
• Currently when a Delegate resigns from the WA, they're listed at the top of the region page as having resigned. This would require a visual change to remove their name entirely when they resign from the WA - the region would instead be listed as having "WA Delegate: none".

In fact, that post answers everything about the change.

Here's a link to the RO thread for those who want to comment on how ROs are affected by this change: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... 5&t=356700

Apologies for missing a month old post.

[Jakker]

As Cora said, raiders will adjust as we always do.

It is obvious that this change is correlated with the addition of Regional Officers. I would strongly hope that this change means an end to the possibility of ROs being immediately dismissed. Otherwise, both occupational raiding and tag raiding will be negatively impacted.

Edit: I echo North Pacific Spy's confusion of what this change is meant to achieve. Was this because it was decided that immediately dismissive of delegate powers upon resigning is more realistic? To cut down on tag raids? To utilize ROs more?

And what is the goal of this change? Any insight here would be greatly appreciated.

Any answers to these questions?

[Bears Armed]

The only grievance I have with this (okay, not the only grievance, but the only one I feel like voicing) is the lack of warning before it was implemented. All we got was a hint that this was coming half a month ago, with no actual information on the details of when the change was taking place.

Which is still more warning than natives get about forthcoming raids...

[Topid]

Reasonable change. I do want to echo the thoughts of everyone else, it is really important that the community have an opportunity to think about these suggestions and point out all the implications such a change would have. This change was implemented on November 22nd, and discussion on this topic only began on November 13th... of 2010. However were we supposed to respond given only five years??

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Because the landscape of GP totally hasn't changed at all in the past five years, and there's not a hundred such suggestion threads given that time frame. Right. And we also need to come here to add nothing but snark, a week and a half after the fact.

[Nessie]

Honestly no, this change is no different now than it was five years ago if they fix RO hole. Nothing much has changed. Variance is the most relevant change. Other than that tagging isn't much different than it was in 2010.

A week is good timing for me during finals. My intent was to show my excitement this change happened, not snark. I've been looking forward to it since this thread started. It was just impossible not to comment on how silly it is to act like this came overnight out of nowhere.

[RiderSyl]

In order for me to avoid 'acting like this came overnight out of nowhere' and being so 'silly', I would have had to stay on top of this technical thread before I even joined NationStates, and then notice it was revived a half-decade later in the midst of my quitting NationStates to focus on college.

Topid, maybe you should consider not everyone was paying as much attention to this thread as you.
Just a suggestion.