New World Census Rankings (and other big update things)

[Flanderlion]

http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2 ... index.html

2nd news post: http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2 ... index.html

3rd less relevant news post:
http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2 ... index.html

4th also less relevant news post:
http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2 ... index.html

5th also less relevant news post:
http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2 ... index.html

Anything related to the new update, excluding R/D implications:
viewtopic.php?p=27712831#p27712831

FAQ:
Regional trophies: Averages over a region (rather than cumulative like some previous scales), one man regions are expected to feature heavily in the high rankings.
When will this be rolled out: Hopefully near the end of the month
Issues timing: Come out every 6 hours, not tied into updates at all, different for every nation.
Immediate issues: Will have a setting which will add a confirmation box to prevent misclicks, off by default.
Maximum issues: Still 5
Issue frequency: Vacation mode remains, and a throttle setting for 12, 24, or 48 hours between issues.
World Census scales: Many scales will be revamped.
New nation issues: Won't receive duplicates within the first 7? days and can go beyond the original Max Barry written issues if they don't qualify for other ones.
Census reports: Will provide current rank, and current and past scores, but not past ranks
Dismiss all button removed?

Not updating this actively - so info can be out of date or plain wrong

Feel free to make edits on this.

A few threads for R/D:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=368606 - Souls timestamps
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=259002 - estimated Update times

Original post:

I'm thinking this will turn out alright, although I've got a few questions.

If it is updating daily (I'm assuming that is what you mean by live), will this extend the major update significantly? Also, what will happen to the daily census, will it vanish or remain?

How will regional trophies work? Will there be some sort of rating to stop either one nation regions (if it is averaged out) or bigger regions (if it is calculated by total score) from dominating the rankings?

Also, is it coming out this major, or a little later, and how will I access the graphs?

Edit: Saw other post RE daily census

[[violet]]

If it is updating daily (I'm assuming that is what you mean by live),

Live means live! Or at least very close to it. The longest delay you should ever see on any scale is one hour. More often it will be close enough to real-time that you shouldn't notice the difference.

will this extend the major update significantly?

It probably won't change much. In theory it will get shorter, because a bunch of processing has been moved out. But we'll see.

Also, what will happen to the daily census, will it vanish or remain?

The World Census will continue to select one scale to be featured each day. It will include a few new links to access other scales and data.

How will regional trophies work? Will there be some sort of rating to stop either one nation regions (if it is averaged out) or bigger regions (if it is calculated by total score) from dominating the rankings?

Regional ranks & trophies will indeed all be based on averages. This is a change from the current situation where some scales use an average (eg Nudest) while others sum up the total (eg Largest Automobile Manufacturing Sector) when calculating regional ranks.

Regions containing a single exceptional nation will certainly rank well. This is fine and the World Census won't pass any judgment on regions based on size.

Also, is it coming out this major, or a little later, and how will I access the graphs?

This month? Probably yes.

Graphs will be accessible via the "Trend" icon on nation pages as well as a similar icon in World Census lists.

[Capisaria]

So when should we be seeing this rolled out? Will there be a follow up news post?

[Flanderlion]

So when should we be seeing this rolled out? Will there be a follow up news post?

I'm guess likely this month (from Violet's post above you), and there generally is.

Also, is it coming out this major, or a little later, and how will I access the graphs?

This month? Probably yes.

[Jute]

I'm so happy to see new exciting updates and look very much forward to them!

[Minoa]

If there is a beta service like the regional officers, I'd like to try it out. It also means I would have to see if anyone can help contribute to NSindex to accommodate the radical changes to one of the original features.

[Flanderlion]

So what is going to happen in regards to updates? Is there another way for telling when our nation has updated, especially for minors?

Edit: Also, if issues answer instantly, if you misclick, that might cause a fairly big problem, instead of just changing it like normal. Is there any way to delay it for any period of time, as your minions carry out your orders?

[Drawkland]

So what is going to happen in regards to updates? Is there another way for telling when our nation has updated, especially for minors?

Edit: Also, if issues answer instantly, if you misclick, that might cause a fairly big problem, instead of just changing it like normal. Is there any way to delay it for any period of time, as your minions carry out your orders?

I was gonna ask this as well.

Another question, will the issue updates be at random times or could the leader, perhaps, specify when they want a new issue?

Also, will the limit still be 5 issues at a time, since the amount per day is up to 4, or will that too be changed?

[Trotterdam]

Immediate legislation. When you make a decision, law will be enacted right away. That's right. No more waiting around for lawyers/senators/minions to get your Act together. Your will shall be done without delay.

I have to agree with previous commenters that this doesn't actually sound like a good thing to me. I like having a grace period where I can still change my mind, and not having to worry about a single misclick immediately ruining my nation. If this is implemented, I hope there will be an opt-out feature.

Anytime issues. Currently, issues are painstakingly gathered from your citizens via twice-daily polling and delivered to your desk at the same time each day. Well forget that! Instead, issues will be wired straight to you wherever you are whenever they arise, which can be any time.

This is less of a big deal and probably more realistic, though I do note it would promote more obsessive checking of the site throughout the day to see if any new issues have come up yet, rather having predictable times you can check in. It would also make maintaining multiple puppets more annoying, since you'd only receive immediate news on your main, and wouldn't know when to log in to your other nations.

More frequent issues. Your staff are careful not to bother you with more than two issues per day. But modern leaders can handle more stress, probably. So that will increase to four.

Will this come with an increase to the maximum number of issues that may be stored before you stop receiving them?

[Drawkland]

Immediate legislation. When you make a decision, law will be enacted right away. That's right. No more waiting around for lawyers/senators/minions to get your Act together. Your will shall be done without delay.

I have to agree with previous commenters that this doesn't actually sound like a good thing to me. I like having a grace period where I can still change my mind, and not having to worry about a single misclick immediately ruining my nation. If this is implemented, I hope there will be an opt-out feature.

I do like the idea of near-immediate results, though.

I'd say a grace period of like, 15 minutes, maybe 20. That's long enough for an average thorough NS visit, and would give plenty of time for the nation to realize a mistake and correct it.

And really, it'll just promote people to be more careful reading issues due to the consequences, and that can't be a bad thing, can it?

[Lockdownn]

I do like the idea of near-immediate results, though.

I'd say a grace period of like, 15 minutes, maybe 20. That's long enough for an average thorough NS visit, and would give plenty of time for the nation to realize a mistake and correct it.

And really, it'll just promote people to be more careful reading issues due to the consequences, and that can't be a bad thing, can it?

Or not even wait time but a (confirm issue selection) button. Users wouldn't have to wait, and mis-clicks wouldn't be an issue.

[[violet]]

So what is going to happen in regards to updates?

They're the same but they're no longer the only time you can pass legislation or receive new issues.

Is there another way for telling when our nation has updated, especially for minors?

Yes, but you need to clarify the question, since different parts of a nation can update at different times. What do you want to know about? (Population, influence, trophies, WA endorsements, ..?)

Also, if issues answer instantly, if you misclick, that might cause a fairly big problem, instead of just changing it like normal. Is there any way to delay it for any period of time, as your minions carry out your orders?

There will be a "Require confirmation" in Settings. It's off by default, but if you turn it on, the process of answering issues is Click choice -> Page reloads -> Click confirmation -> Page loads -> Legislation passes.

[[violet]]

will the issue updates be at random times or could the leader, perhaps, specify when they want a new issue?

There's a minimum time between receiving new issues, which for most nations is 6 hours. (For brand new ones, it's temporarily shorter.) So it's not random but neither can it be scheduled. If you keep promptly answering issues, new ones will turn up every 6 hours until the end of time.

Also, will the limit still be 5 issues at a time, since the amount per day is up to 4, or will that too be changed?

The maximum is still five.

[Caelapes]

will the issue updates be at random times or could the leader, perhaps, specify when they want a new issue?

There's a minimum time between receiving new issues, which for most nations is 6 hours. (For brand new ones, it's temporarily shorter.) So it's not random but neither can it be scheduled. If you keep promptly answering issues, new ones will turn up every 6 hours until the end of time.

Also, will the limit still be 5 issues at a time, since the amount per day is up to 4, or will that too be changed?

The maximum is still five.

Are these six-hour rotations tied in any way to current major/minor updates?

[[violet]]

Are these six-hour rotations tied in any way to current major/minor updates?

No. They're different for each nation.

[Drawkland]

will the issue updates be at random times or could the leader, perhaps, specify when they want a new issue?

There's a minimum time between receiving new issues, which for most nations is 6 hours. (For brand new ones, it's temporarily shorter.) So it's not random but neither can it be scheduled. If you keep promptly answering issues, new ones will turn up every 6 hours until the end of time.

So will the issue receiving options be:

None
One Per Weekday
One Per Day
Two Per Weekday
Two Per Day
Four Per Weekday
Four Per Day

or will there be a "Three Per Week/Day" option? And if so, would the 3rd option come between the Major and Minor Update (6am EST) or between the Minor and Major Update (6pm EST)?

EDIT:

Are these six-hour rotations tied in any way to current major/minor updates?

No. They're different for each nation.

Will the cycles be random per nation or could a nation select a rotation to better fit their schedule?

[Severisen]

So what is going to happen in regards to updates?

They're the same but they're no longer the only time you can pass legislation or receive new issues.

Is there another way for telling when our nation has updated, especially for minors?

Yes, but you need to clarify the question, since different parts of a nation can update at different times. What do you want to know about? (Population, influence, trophies, WA endorsements, ..?)

From a gameplay perspective, the way we determine when to move into a region is by watching when a nation placed at a specific point updates. This had been done by watching that nation for issues being processed. So for a non-delegate nation, how would one determine that it had updated during the minor update? I think that's what he wants to know.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Is there any change of getting an RSS-based note of when a nation passed through the update? Yes, you can use something like population increase (majors only) or influence (only notes SPDR changes, so doesn't happen every update) changes to note it, but neither of those push a happenings event. One effect of this is that the literally lowest tech form timing a region to update (noting a common time between two regions, then using the update hitting the first one as a "trigger" for the second one) becomes far less accessible - rather than being able to simply look at when issues passed in each for the past several majors/minors, you'd have to somehow either manually or with the API note when something like pop or influence changes to even begin to put a timestamp on that difference. Due to the API rate limit, getting a decent timestamp even off that is near impossible, and you'd be out of luck for most any minor.

Now, if your estimated update times are spot on, there's no issue, the barrier is lowered for everyone - but if they're anything like the NS++ ones, you're almost as well off adding or subtracting 30+ seconds to the given time and hoping that brings you a little closer, because the last thing those could be called is "reliable." What this means is many more update jumps missed entirely on both sides (making it harder to get people on to try them, and at best encouraging more stealthy raiding which, as a factor of the time put into making it happen, usually leads to more destructive raids, and at worse killing a ton of both raiding and liberating activity flat off), generally more time for defenders to intervene before update (a plus to their activity, and perhaps not a huge hit to larger orgs that can either suffer missing more operation starts or plan for a buffer larger than whatever force they expect defender to have ready during the update, but killer to the very smaller groups we're trying to lower the barrier to - their groups of usually 2-5 people will be easily crushed by defenders if they move in a minute before update passed through), and overall, IMHO, *raise* the barrier to getting involved in R/D more than lower it.

A solution to this would be to make something else that still occurs at every update pop up on the RSS feed - population would work at majors, but that still leaves minors in the dust.

[Flanderlion]

They're the same but they're no longer the only time you can pass legislation or receive new issues.


Yes, but you need to clarify the question, since different parts of a nation can update at different times. What do you want to know about? (Population, influence, trophies, WA endorsements, ..?)

From a gameplay perspective, the way we determine when to move into a region is by watching when a nation placed at a specific point updates. This had been done by watching that nation for issues being processed. So for a non-delegate nation, how would one determine that it had updated during the minor update? I think that's what he wants to know.

As Severisen said above, I know new nations to a region have the influence ranking notifications which happen, and also the timings of delegacy transfers, but this is only helpful in certain circumstances. If you know a regions password, you aren't going to put a new nation in the day before, as someone will likely question how a nation got through the password.

Edit: Either some sort of way of telling the timestamp consistently when a nation updates, or the Estimated Update Times (part of the R/D summit) would be appreciated. I'm for the Estimated Update Times, as that will let everyone participate, but that is probably a lot more coding in a time where you need all hands on deck for the testing of the new system.

[Land filled with People]

You used to set triggers, yes?

Has the way to set a trigger, or the way a trigger works changed at all?

Are you prevented from placing triggers by this change?

Is there always one thing that changes the first time a nation updates in a region?

Do you now have all the information you need?

I mean really. You all know the solution already, you're just too lazy/stuck in routine/whatever today's reason is to either consider doing it.

@Souls; the low-end barrier hasn't changed much at all. Instead the top-end people with scripts and tools have been made level with everyone else again (until they change their tools).

[[violet]]

So will the issue receiving options be:

None
One Per Weekday
One Per Day
Two Per Weekday
Two Per Day
Four Per Weekday
Four Per Day

or will there be a "Three Per Week/Day" option?

Those options are removed.

Will the cycles be random per nation or could a nation select a rotation to better fit their schedule?

There's no randomness, nor is there a fixed rotation. You simply receive an issue 6 hours after you received the last one.

If you really want to schedule it, I guess you could let it hit the maximum of 5 unaddressed issues, then answer one, and so long as you keep on top of them, you'll get issues every 6 hours starting from then.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I mean really. You all know the solution already, you're just too lazy/stuck in routine/whatever today's reason is to either consider doing it.

@Souls; the low-end barrier hasn't changed much at all. Instead the top-end people with scripts and tools have been made level with everyone else again (until they change their tools).

You say we're lazy and stuck in routine and in the very same post acknowledge that we're going to change our tools to adapt.

top kek

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

You used to set triggers, yes?

Has the way to set a trigger, or the way a trigger works changed at all?

Are you prevented from placing triggers by this change?

Is there always one thing that changes the first time a nation updates in a region?

Do you now have all the information you need?

I mean really. You all know the solution already, you're just too lazy/stuck in routine/whatever today's reason is to either consider doing it.

@Souls; the low-end barrier hasn't changed much at all. Instead the top-end people with scripts and tools have been made level with everyone else again (until they change their tools).

Used to? I never use tool times.

A trigger by nature requires the knowledge of time between regions. My point was that that's now very hard to find - you could, for example, set up a 1 per sec API call coded to mark the time that two chosen nations have a pop increase, and compare those, but not only does that not work at minors, it's a lot less accessible than looking at happenings. Setting manual triggers has been so accessible because all it takes is checking issue timestamps, saying "oh hey issues usually pass here 45 secs before they do there," and waiting for issues to pass in the first region. With no accessible markers to time based on, it becomes impossible to set a trigger without using code.

So yes, the way triggers work has changed - the only reliable way to tell when updates occur is del changes/verified del endos, population, and SPDR, only one of which is guaranteed to change, and only at majors. One can place triggers, but know how long they are is impossible at major without code or literally stopwatching timing two pop changes, and impossible at minors.

Lazy? We've already spent a few hours tossing ideas around on this before posting here

After reading this post, I hope your last statement changes a bit. "low-end" is a lot harder, and tools will be necessary to have anything resembling a good time, rather than being not all that much if at all better than placing a manual trigger. There is no easy change to tools.

[[violet]]

From a gameplay perspective, the way we determine when to move into a region is by watching when a nation placed at a specific point updates. This had been done by watching that nation for issues being processed. So for a non-delegate nation, how would one determine that it had updated during the minor update?

There are ways, but I don't think it's my place to lay out R/D strategies.

Is there any change of getting an RSS-based note of when a nation passed through the update?

That is possible, yes, and for regions, too, but let's not use this thread for that discussion. Feel free to start a new thread to propose it.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

From a gameplay perspective, the way we determine when to move into a region is by watching when a nation placed at a specific point updates. This had been done by watching that nation for issues being processed. So for a non-delegate nation, how would one determine that it had updated during the minor update?

There are ways, but I don't think it's my place to lay out R/D strategies.

Is there any change of getting an RSS-based note of when a nation passed through the update?

That is possible, yes, and for regions, too, but let's not use this thread for that discussion. Feel free to start a new thread to propose it.

Noted.