Change in Weather Calculations?

[Regiria]

I wasn't sure where I should put this, so I put it here.

I track the stats for my nation, and list the changes after every passed issue in order to see exactly what effect they have on the various categories. The current World Census listing is for Best Weather. As of last night, it looked like this:

1,163rd in the world for Best Weather, with 444 Metres of Sunlight Above Expected.

After the issue "Birds, Bees, And Breeding Teens" passed, as I check to see what has changed, I see this:

1,163rd in the world for Best Weather, with 236 Metres of Sunlight Above Expected.



How in the world did this happen? Voting for sex education decreases my nation's weather by 208???? My nation hasn't had that few Meters of Sunlight Above Expected since 2012. The biggest decrease after an issue that I've tracked was 62, but a dropoff of 208 is absurd. Was there some kind of alteration in how it's calculated? Because my nation is still 1,163rd, which should be impossible if I lost 208 points. So what's going on here?

[Sanctaria]

I believe there was some discussion on changing that calculation.

[Azurius]

Having the same issue here.... and no matter how you look at it, it is totally messed up. Basically with my roleplay nation I have the same(bad) weather as another nation within that region that has a terrible environment and is basically run by a dictatorship with not much freedoms or "good social weather" either(as I personally figure that "overall weather" also means the social climate).

How the heck is that possible? This recalculation is definitely wrong and messed up, I did not spend so much on environment and progressive social policies to end up with such a bad weather.... in my other nation it is now on world average despite a very good environment and what not. This can´t be it, please fix this. Recalculation: One thing, like refractoring, but at least make it realistic please, this is just like Violet describes it: Insane. Not to mention that the rankings are now totally messed up to.

@Sanctria

You don´t happen to know the name of that topics discussion? As I cannot find it unfortunately, neither through clicking nor through the search engine(speaking of which: The search engine for forum topics really needs an overhaul to).

[Sanctaria]

You don´t happen to know the name of that topics discussion? As I cannot find it unfortunately, neither through clicking nor through the search engine(speaking of which: The search engine for forum topics really needs an overhaul to).

It was in our private forum.

[Techno-Titania]

Kindjal is ranked first with score 3538. Last Utopia is second with 3603. Neither one answers issues in last 12 hours.

[[violet]]

Correct, there was a change to the Weather algorithm. Good weather is no longer boosted by kind-spiritedness, and is now negatively associated with culture (i.e. more culture = less sunlight).

[[violet]]

Huh, I didn't realize it was actually today's World Census report. That's a coincidence!

[Azurius]

What?.... Okay that explains the low weather in both my nations.... Well having "weather" tied to kind-spiritdness indeed doesn´t make much sense and removing that from the algorithm is something I agree on.

But what on earth does culture have to do with weather? And even worse having a high culture resulting in low/bad weather makes absolutely no sense to me at all..... How is that supposed to work out?

@Sanctria

I see makes sense.

[Enfaru]

Correct, there was a change to the Weather algorithm. Good weather is no longer boosted by kind-spiritedness, and is now negatively associated with culture (i.e. more culture = less sunlight).

Wait what. How does more culture == less sunlight? O_o Culture =/= Cave paintings surely...

[Techno-Titania]

Correct, there was a change to the Weather algorithm. Good weather is no longer boosted by kind-spiritedness, and is now negatively associated with culture (i.e. more culture = less sunlight).

How does this make the #2 have a higher score than the #1?

[Azurius]

Correct, there was a change to the Weather algorithm. Good weather is no longer boosted by kind-spiritedness, and is now negatively associated with culture (i.e. more culture = less sunlight).

How does this make the #2 have a higher score than the #1?

I´m pretty sure that is a simple bug that came to life since the weather was re-calculated coincidentally on the same day as the weather was ranked as violet said. Thus it messed up the rankings, and it will probably stay this way until the weather is ranked the next time again and will automatically go back to normal. Personally I am more concerned with the issue that culture now negatively effects the weather, which no matter how you look at it or how much I think about, makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Kaboomlandia]

How does more culture equate to less sunlighty? I'm a totalitarian dictatorship, and I'm ranked near the bottom of Europeia.

[Enfaru]

How does more culture equate to less sunlighty? I'm a totalitarian dictatorship, and I'm ranked near the bottom of Europeia.

I suspect that pollution negatively affects sunlight as well as any underground living. Meaning that culture is probably less than ⅓ contributing effect.

[Social Progressivists]

How does more culture equate to less sunlighty? I'm a totalitarian dictatorship, and I'm ranked near the bottom of Europeia.

I suspect that pollution negatively affects sunlight as well as any underground living. Meaning that culture is probably less than ⅓ contributing effect.

Well 2 things here: For 1 I disagree that the ratio is low and 1 third(0,33), judging the extremely heavy effects on my 2 nations (a whopping drop of -28 and -21) with a culture ratio of 19 and 14, I can hardly believe that. Not only that but in my case most of the positive weather effects come from environmental issue and less from social issues, as I have also done some decisions that lowered my weather through lowering compassion or "kind-spiritedness". Since this algorithm doesn´t count in anymore you of course have to count that in the total to. However, since it was pretty low and most of it came from environmental issues themselves, it is definitely more then 0,33. In my oppinion 1 at MINIMUM, I more tend to believe it is at 1,25 times, but definitely far above 0,33 which is totally insane.

Secondly: Of course pollution would negatively effect it logically, however, how does culture stand in any relation to pollution? Makes no sense at all.

[[violet]]

How does more culture equate to less sunlighty?

In the real world, people who live in places with more sunlight are more likely to engage in outdoor pursuits, and so be more physically active (stereotypically: fitter, healthier, better-looking). People who live in places with less sunlight are more likely to engage in indoor pursuits, and so be more mentally active (stereotypically: smarter, better educated, more cultured).

Since this is NationStates, instead of the weather influencing you, you influence the weather.

[[violet]]

In my oppinion 1 at MINIMUM, I more tend to believe it is at 1,25 times, but definitely far above 0,33 which is totally insane.

Culture's weighting is about one-sixth of the total (0.17).

[Glath]

How does more culture equate to less sunlighty?

In the real world, people who live in places with more sunlight are more likely to engage in outdoor pursuits, and so be more physically active (stereotypically: fitter, healthier, better-looking). People who live in places with less sunlight are more likely to engage in indoor pursuits, and so be more mentally active (stereotypically: smarter, better educated, more cultured).

Since this is NationStates, instead of the weather influencing you, you influence the weather.

*insert bad Soviet Russia joke*

[Azurius]

In my oppinion 1 at MINIMUM, I more tend to believe it is at 1,25 times, but definitely far above 0,33 which is totally insane.

Culture's weighting is about one-sixth of the total (0.17).

I still find this impossible to believe I am sorry, here is some data I collected and saved, and weather issues which had nothing to do with the environment but yet heavily effected the weather(negative):

A few examples: Apotheosis of leader: -3 weather, had nothing to with environment at all. International community comes doorknocking: -1 weather. Water supply issue: -2 weather(ironically paying high prices to pump water from abroad which is good for the overall environment in dry regions to, paradoxically lowered my weather). Graffiti issue: -1 weather. Fur cloth debatte(no or rather total mininum change in environment for me): -1 weather. Don´t want your kids anymore? -2 weather. Genetics brings new life to extinct speciess: -1 weather(despite raising environment). Bigtopian bigwits beset borders: -3 weather. Apointment of spiritual advisor: -3 weather. Devil and the deep blue funding gap: Despite slightly decreasing toxicity, -1 weather. Students demanding more financial aid: boosting education resulted in = -2 weather(no increase in culture either).

I think this is enough, this is about 75% of my list, and I did not instantly write down effects from the beginning. Needless to say that this list alone shows how many inconsistant effects there are.

If culture was really that low of an effect, then how come despite 1 nation over average to good and very low toxicity, and 1 nation(this nation i´m posting with) pristine environment and extremely low toxicity, ends up with with far below average and this nation i´m using now with standard(3) environment?

No matter how you look at it this is totally messed up, and the system used before was indeed not perfect, but I dare to say far more accurate and truly representative of the actual physical weather in ones nation then this new re-calculation which we have now. This may be my oppinion, but I judge it off the data I have, and so far this new re-calculation of weather didn´t make it more realistic, but the opposite: More unrealistic.

Anyway, my second issue is: So now instead of social climate and "kind spiritidness" you have "culture" as the new factor..... Social climate was in this case more accurate(since it describes the overall weather, which includes both physical weather as well as social climate). Now instead you have a premise of high culture = staying indoors... = bad weather.... Sorry but to me it makes even less sense.

"People who live in places with less sunlight are more likely to engage in indoor pursuits, and so be more mentally active (stereotypically: smarter, better educated, more cultured)."

Staying indoors does not automatically affect the social climate in a bad way and even less the physical weather, in fact, more culture often encourages you to partake in cultural activities which are often outdoors to, and encourages you rather then de-courages you to partake in such activities. Getting inspiration from nature, beeing 1 with it to. There are countless examples against it, especially regarding art which is a typical outdoor cultural pursuit.

Of course there is not much I can do, rather then bringing this up and urge the admins to please re-think this position. Speaking of which: It would be far more realistically to tie weather together with toxicity in an algorithm instead of culture which as said simply makes no common sense at all.

*Edit* Here comes another one which is totally harsh and unlogical to, seriously please tell me how I should ever get my weather up under this circumstances?: Issue: Is our child learning, option 1(once again boost education): -4 environment, -2,1 toxicity and -3 weather..... for real? Come on this is getting more and more redicilous since re-calculation.

[Enfaru]

Issues do not affect everyone uniformly. The effect of answering an issue is very much dependent on if you have encountered the issue before and how you chose to answer it. If you have answered a certain way previously and answer the same way again you will see minimal difference. If you answer in a contradictory manner then obviously you will have an exaggerated outcome. So those +1's and +2's are probably not accurate of the stats implemented in the background.

Not all issues have positive outcomes or have balanced outcomes. In fact there's a particular issue that NS++ used to highlight as a trap that seemed to indicate that one of the choices would promote political freedom, but in fact no matter which choice was selected political freedoms would be oppressed. That's how Nationstates works. If you don't like any of the options provided you always have the option of the dismiss button.

Edit.

By the way. This is nationstates, not the real world. Hyperrealism is not expected here on this satirical site.

Since this is NationStates, instead of the weather influencing you, you influence the weather.

This is just how physics works here. Sorry 'bout that.

[Undivulged Principles]

How does more culture equate to less sunlighty?

In the real world, people who live in places with more sunlight are more likely to engage in outdoor pursuits, and so be more physically active (stereotypically: fitter, healthier, better-looking). People who live in places with less sunlight are more likely to engage in indoor pursuits, and so be more mentally active (stereotypically: smarter, better educated, more cultured).

Since this is NationStates, instead of the weather influencing you, you influence the weather.

You have got to be getting paid to write this nonsense.

Are you trying to tell me Italy, Greece, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Morocco etc do not have high culture or just that you are British? Or are you going to say that India doesn't get a lot of sunshine because of the monsoon?

You would be more convincing if you said your culture level depends on whether you live in the northern hemisphere or not.

From where I am looking France, Britain, Japan & China are the only superior cultures directly outside the higher sunbelts.

You might want to invert your algorithm.

[Undivulged Principles]

By the way. This is nationstates, not the real world. Hyperrealism is not expected here on this satirical site.

Lamest excuse ever. This game is based on reality. Virtually every issue choice not dealing with future tech has a historical precedent. Hyperrealism is one thing but this isn't what is being discussed here. It's hyper-unreality. That should not be expected here either or the game would turn to nonsense. That would do wonders for site traffic.

[Ratateague]

That's some crazy reasoning. I'd understand if culture affected environmental beauty, with human intervention in the way our surrounding natural environment develops, for better or worse (i.e. beautification, graffiti, negligence), but...
To my recollection, there have been wide diaspora of indigenous peoples spanning continents who have spent a majority of their lives outside and still managed to contribute and distinguish themselves culturally.
How does ceremonial dress, traditions & rites of passages, natural arts & crafts, multilingualism, manners, music, poetry, or dance specifically affect weather? I think we may be conflating technological development with subjective culture.
With the whole "time spent indoors" argument, tying primitiveness to weather instead would make so much more sense.

(as for my stats, despite being extremely environmental, my weather has dropped nearly 1000 points. ridiculous much?)

[Bears Armed]

How does more culture equate to less sunlighty?

In the real world, people who live in places with more sunlight are more likely to engage in outdoor pursuits, and so be more physically active (stereotypically: fitter, healthier, better-looking). People who live in places with less sunlight are more likely to engage in indoor pursuits, and so be more mentally active (stereotypically: smarter, better educated, more cultured).

Since this is NationStates, instead of the weather influencing you, you influence the weather.

But what if a nation's cultural activity includes a significant proportion of outdoors concerts and dances, and open-air theatres?

[Confused People]

In reality, it doesn't make sense to any possible choice in a national scale to actually affect climate, which is a global dependant phenomenon. Besides some radical landscape changes that would minorly affect weather, such as deforesting, temperature, umity level and such are still much more dependant on latitude, oceanic and air mass dynamics, for example.

Whichever the stats chosen to determine weather, the realistic impact would be minimal. So this method of calculation would not be very good, making an ad hoc justification a better option, albeit silly.

[[violet]]

here is some data I collected and saved

Kudos on having actual data. What you'll find is that there are five different factors that directly impact weather, with one of them (not culture) being double-weighted. That's the sense in which culture is one-sixth of the total.

Now how this affects an individual nation is a different question. If my nation scores zero for all the non-culture factors and -1 for culture, giving me a Weather score of 1, and then I answer an issue that slightly decreases my culture, I might see my Weather score increase to 2, and conclude that Weather is 100% about culture, and tiny culture decreases will double my sunshine. But this is only true for that specific nation at that particular point in time.

Weather is a funny ranking, of course, even for NationStates, because realistically it should be random. And indeed it used to be. Over the years it has gone from a random ranking, to one that rewarded "good" nations, for an arbitrary standard of goodness, to the current one.

Are you trying to tell me Italy, Greece, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Morocco etc do not have high culture or just that you are British?

I think you are arguing from the premise that NS nations with high culture aren't allowed to have good weather. This isn't true at all, as culture is only a fairly small part of the algorithm, as described above. It's perfectly possible to have lots of sunshine in a high-culture nation, it's just a little easier for low-culture nations.