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In the interests of a collaborative GP/RPer solution.

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.
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Klaus Devestatorie
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Posts: 2937
Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

In the interests of a collaborative GP/RPer solution.

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:58 pm

Roleplayers feel they are being unfairly targeted by Gameplayers; Raiders are enjoying the drama and probably starting more for entertainment, and Defenders are largely too burned out to make a difference. Time for a shakeup, not because I particularly agree with any particular group (actually after 6 years in this game I kind of hate you all :lol: ), but because the bitterness and flaming isn't going to go away any time soon unless there's plans for one hell of a mod crackdown.

1. Introduce the founder succession mechanism (i.e. this one).

2. Remove Executive Powers from every WA delegate in every founderless UCR in the game; allow regions with founders to continue to have the option to enable/disable them. This will mean that founderless regions are basically lawless and government-less, outside of game rules/moderation and the ability of those in the region to cooperate. Refounding may become harder but it will never occur against the will of the community.

3. Drastically increase the number of Feeders/Sinkers, so that on average each will wind up having around 1,000 nations. Optionally, change mechanics so that both new and refounded nations spawn in both types, unifying them all under one type. This would increase the number of feeders and sinkers to about 30 (there's currently about 27.2k nations in Feeders/Sinkers). TRR not included; it holds a different role in the game ecosystem anyway.

The end result is that raider/defender gameplay would be restricted to those 30 regions. 1,000 nations is the sweet spot, imho; these regions would remain large enough that being the delegate of one would continue to carry prestige, and that an organized delegate or government would be able to undertake options to defend these regions. It would also make them small enough that couping or raiding one can actually be done by a military force of a group of powerful regions moving at update, but that no current gameplayer force could seriously forcibly hold down more than a couple of GCRs at once, meaning that the world of this form of gameplay is very large and could have a very diverse group of forces behind them; certainly much more diverse than the current group.

PROS:
-Roleplayers and general UCR users will like it because in 99.9% of cases they will no longer be affected by raiding and griefing, even if they go founderless.
-Defenders will like it because it reduces the number of regions that require the support of defenders to a far more manageable number.
-Raiders will like it because there is still a wide body of raid-able regions and each raid they make will be a significant victory worth boasting about.
-General gameplay politicians will like it because it will significantly widen the body of GCRs in the game for which to conduct politics in.

CONS:
-Existing GCRs probably won't like it, because it reduces their current stability.
-Refounding by natives becomes significantly harder and there will be new ways to restrict refounds, such as simply refusing to move your nation out of a region.
-Regions from the pre-founder era that never got one are S-O-L until the Custodian mechanic is available and they can make their case to the WASC.
-Accessibility to the raider/defender game will be reduced to those with understanding of macro influence mechanics.

OTHER:
-Tag raiding will no longer be a thing, and so the Warzones will by default become the probable choice of people looking to train soldiers.
-There will be a massive rush of various forces attempting to take political control over the 20ish new GCRs and things will be weird; but probably much less messier than when Osiris and Balder were created due to the sheer size of the new power vacuum.

I openly admit to having no idea how much coding it would take to implement these changes and will make no assumptions; I also openly admit that certain elements of these suggestions are coloured by my own ideas on current gameplay concepts, and some people can probably guess what they are. I am posting this because I support a collaborative, game mechanic driven shakeup, that will result in improvements for both sides, and even though I don't really believe this topic will result in an answer (nevermind this post exactly as written), I do believe it's worth getting a ball rolling. So here we go.
Last edited by Klaus Devestatorie on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Space Dandy
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Ex-Nation

Postby Space Dandy » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:01 pm

Love it.

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Applebania
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Founded: Dec 17, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Applebania » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:06 am

This is an absolutely insane idea.

I love it.
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Nierr
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Founded: Feb 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierr » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:10 am

This is the greatest idea of all time.

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Bentus
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Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Bentus » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:12 am

I think this'd affect R/D and WA players more than RPers, so I'll withhold judgement as those aren't really my areas of 'semi-expertise' :P

But from my limited RPer perspective, it wouldn't hurt as far as I can tell.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:43 am

So uh... what happens if a founder CTE and doesn't have a successor? And what happens to every other founderless UCR currently in existence?
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Klaus Devestatorie
Minister
 
Posts: 2937
Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:53 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:So uh... what happens if a founder CTE and doesn't have a successor? And what happens to every other founderless UCR currently in existence?
Inhabitants can either refound, move to a new region under a slightly different name, or do nothing and hope the founder comes back. The key is that all 3 options will be on their terms, and not because someone else is forcing them to; they will be able to save all the information on the webpage of the old region and transfer it to the new one in whatever way they see fit and at their own leisure. When the Custodian WASC proposal is available, they will have that option as well.

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Vaculatestar64
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vaculatestar64 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:20 am

So the biggest con, current GCR stability, which is VERY VERY VERY fragile, would be ripped to shreds.

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Klaus Devestatorie
Minister
 
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Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:03 am

Vaculatestar64 wrote:So the biggest con, current GCR stability, which is VERY VERY VERY fragile, would be ripped to shreds.
Yes, GCRs will be the battleground. I'd say the current ones are easily the best placed to remain stable due to existing organization and regional ties; it's the new ones that will be less stable, and then it will be nowhere near as messy as the introduction of Osiris and Balder simply because of the sheer size of the vacuum.

Long term, a 1,000 nation region is a hard target. There are 1632 endorsements between then 8 feeders and sinkers other than TRR; divided by 30 means 54-55. That's a tall order with a 20 or less endorsement cap but not out of reach. Good delegates and governments that work hard will be able to increase that number significantly.

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Nierr
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nierr » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:09 am

GCRs are at their most stable for years. There's very little fragility there.

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Discoveria
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Discoveria » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:59 am

I like this idea. Possibly the best part is that it takes the R/D focus away from UCRs which are the regions that people tend to form personal attachments to.

Few raiders have weighed in so far. Would this kill R/D or be good for it?
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Applebania
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Founded: Dec 17, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Applebania » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:08 am

Klaus Devestatorie is a raider.
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Klaus Devestatorie
Minister
 
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Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:26 am

Applebania wrote:Klaus Devestatorie is a raider.
Correct. This suggestion has been submitted by a raider of 6 years, often conflicted about his priorities, but still enlisted in at least one region that conducts raids.

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Evil Wolf
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Posts: 2412
Founded: Apr 28, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Evil Wolf » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:55 am

I think he's implying that people should ignore your suggestions because you're a scary raider. :P
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
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Nierr
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Founded: Feb 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierr » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:58 am

Actually he was refuting the statement that few raiders had commented on this.

Do try to keep up chap..

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Klaus Devestatorie
Minister
 
Posts: 2937
Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:08 am

Evil Wolf wrote:I think he's implying that people should ignore your suggestions because you're a scary raider. :P

I'd ignore me, but mostly because I'm an idiot. :v
Last edited by Klaus Devestatorie on Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Blaatschapen
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:14 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Evil Wolf wrote:I think he's implying that people should ignore your suggestions because you're a scary raider. :P

I'd ignore me, but mostly because I'm an idiot. :v


Don't flame yourself :p
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Quilavaland
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Posts: 407
Founded: Apr 22, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Quilavaland » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:16 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Roleplayers feel they are being unfairly targeted by Gameplayers; Raiders are enjoying the drama and probably starting more for entertainment, and Defenders are largely too burned out to make a difference. Time for a shakeup, not because I particularly agree with any particular group (actually after 6 years in this game I kind of hate you all :lol: ), but because the bitterness and flaming isn't going to go away any time soon unless there's plans for one hell of a mod crackdown.

1. Introduce the founder succession mechanism (i.e. this one).

2. Remove Executive Powers from every WA delegate in every founderless UCR in the game; allow regions with founders to continue to have the option to enable/disable them. This will mean that founderless regions are basically lawless and government-less, outside of game rules/moderation and the ability of those in the region to cooperate. Refounding may become harder but it will never occur against the will of the community.

3. Drastically increase the number of Feeders/Sinkers, so that on average each will wind up having around 1,000 nations. Optionally, change mechanics so that both new and refounded nations spawn in both types, unifying them all under one type. This would increase the number of feeders and sinkers to about 30 (there's currently about 27.2k nations in Feeders/Sinkers). TRR not included; it holds a different role in the game ecosystem anyway.

The end result is that raider/defender gameplay would be restricted to those 30 regions. 1,000 nations is the sweet spot, imho; these regions would remain large enough that being the delegate of one would continue to carry prestige, and that an organized delegate or government would be able to undertake options to defend these regions. It would also make them small enough that couping or raiding one can actually be done by a military force of a group of powerful regions moving at update, but that no current gameplayer force could seriously forcibly hold down more than a couple of GCRs at once, meaning that the world of this form of gameplay is very large and could have a very diverse group of forces behind them; certainly much more diverse than the current group.

PROS:
-Roleplayers and general UCR users will like it because in 99.9% of cases they will no longer be affected by raiding and griefing, even if they go founderless.
-Defenders will like it because it reduces the number of regions that require the support of defenders to a far more manageable number.
-Raiders will like it because there is still a wide body of raid-able regions and each raid they make will be a significant victory worth boasting about.
-General gameplay politicians will like it because it will significantly widen the body of GCRs in the game for which to conduct politics in.

CONS:
-Existing GCRs probably won't like it, because it reduces their current stability.
-Refounding by natives becomes significantly harder and there will be new ways to restrict refounds, such as simply refusing to move your nation out of a region.
-Regions from the pre-founder era that never got one are S-O-L until the Custodian mechanic is available and they can make their case to the WASC.
-Accessibility to the raider/defender game will be reduced to those with understanding of macro influence mechanics.

OTHER:
-Tag raiding will no longer be a thing, and so the Warzones will by default become the probable choice of people looking to train soldiers.
-There will be a massive rush of various forces attempting to take political control over the 20ish new GCRs and things will be weird; but probably much less messier than when Osiris and Balder were created due to the sheer size of the new power vacuum.

I openly admit to having no idea how much coding it would take to implement these changes and will make no assumptions; I also openly admit that certain elements of these suggestions are coloured by my own ideas on current gameplay concepts, and some people can probably guess what they are. I am posting this because I support a collaborative, game mechanic driven shakeup, that will result in improvements for both sides, and even though I don't really believe this topic will result in an answer (nevermind this post exactly as written), I do believe it's worth getting a ball rolling. So here we go.


This is an awesome idea, I'm all for it!
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Wrapper
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Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Wrapper » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:25 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:I'd ignore me, but mostly because I'm an idiot. :v


Don't flame yourself :p

Is it flaming if we readily and heartily agree? ;)

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:TRR not included; it holds a different role in the game ecosystem anyway.

That's giving a whole lot of power to TRR.

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Klaus Devestatorie
Minister
 
Posts: 2937
Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:42 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:I'd ignore me, but mostly because I'm an idiot. :v

Don't flame yourself :p

*Holds lighter menacingly*

Wrapper wrote:That's giving a whole lot of power to TRR.

Not really. There's no reason to have more than one point of ejection; TRR's numbers are normally only about 1-2k anyway but are currently heavily inflated by the presence of approximately 3,000 puppets. We COULD include multiple points of ejection if we wanted to make a new mechanic out of it (i.e. RR regions could ban nations as well and nations banned in most or all RR regions are unable to move away and are considered prisoners until such time that they are released), but that's a discussion for another topic.

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9987
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:23 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:So uh... what happens if a founder CTE and doesn't have a successor? And what happens to every other founderless UCR currently in existence?
Inhabitants can either refound, move to a new region under a slightly different name, or do nothing and hope the founder comes back. The key is that all 3 options will be on their terms, and not because someone else is forcing them to; they will be able to save all the information on the webpage of the old region and transfer it to the new one in whatever way they see fit and at their own leisure. When the Custodian WASC proposal is available, they will have that option as well.

They can't refound. If someone from outside throws a puppet in then the region is trapped as it is since there is no executive authority. You've essentially condemned every single region which is founderless to the same fate they would meet if raiders came in: an inability to remove troublemakers, no control over the WFE, and no possibility to refound.
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Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
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Space Dandy
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 105
Founded: Jul 14, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Space Dandy » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:01 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Inhabitants can either refound, move to a new region under a slightly different name, or do nothing and hope the founder comes back. The key is that all 3 options will be on their terms, and not because someone else is forcing them to; they will be able to save all the information on the webpage of the old region and transfer it to the new one in whatever way they see fit and at their own leisure. When the Custodian WASC proposal is available, they will have that option as well.

They can't refound. If someone from outside throws a puppet in then the region is trapped as it is since there is no executive authority. You've essentially condemned every single region which is founderless to the same fate they would meet if raiders came in: an inability to remove troublemakers, no control over the WFE, and no possibility to refound.

They can't do anything about annoying people, but if someone breaks the rules, they can send GHRs.

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Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 27796
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Capitalizt

Postby Frisbeeteria » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:04 pm

Space Dandy wrote:They can't do anything about annoying people, but if someone breaks the rules, they can send GHRs.

How is it illegal to move a puppet into a region? Or were you expecting mods to make a judgment call on the "intent" of whether the annoying person is a native, raider, defender, or innocent ... 'cause that's worked so well in the past.

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Space Dandy
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Posts: 105
Founded: Jul 14, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Space Dandy » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:09 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Space Dandy wrote:They can't do anything about annoying people, but if someone breaks the rules, they can send GHRs.

How is it illegal to move a puppet into a region? Or were you expecting mods to make a judgment call on the "intent" of whether the annoying person is a native, raider, defender, or innocent ... 'cause that's worked so well in the past.

No, I mean like someone flaming the RMB, that's already illegal Fris... Mall said can't remove troublemakers. Though I mentioned if you find someone annoying (but isn't breaking any rules) you can't do anything about it under the proposal.

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South Pacific Belschaft
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Posts: 576
Founded: Jun 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby South Pacific Belschaft » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:57 pm

GCR's already have a hard enough time establishing decent active populations (generally numbering in the low dozens at most) without increasing the number of them dramatically.

Further, and speaking only for myself, as a long term GCR player who has no interest in R/D what-so-fucking-ever, I absolutely detest the idea of turning us into an R/D playground. I suspect most of my compatriots will as well.
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