[SUBMITTED] Abortion Protests Out of Hand?

[Christian Democrats]

Name

Abortion Protests Out of Hand?

Description

Following several reports from internet news outlets that pro-life protesters have been harassing pregnant women seeking abortions, the Womyn's Liberation League has pushed for a bill in Parliament that it says would protect access to clinics.

Validity

Valid only for nations with legalized abortion (see Issue #136: Options 1 & 4, Issue #183: Option 1).

Options

[option]"Passing this bill would be an important step in advancing abortion rights," says pro-choice activist @@RANDOMFEMALENAME@@. "The fact of the matter is that these protesters are obstructing women as they try to enter clinics. When someone wants an abortion, the law ought to be on her side. Making abortion legal was a good first step, but we need to go further to secure women's safety. Anti-abortion activists ought to be required to stand in designated areas far away from the clinics they're protesting."
[effect]police escort anti-abortion activists to free speech cages if they try to express their views
[stats]civil rights slightly increase, political freedoms decrease, law & order spending slightly increases

[option]"What about the right to free speech?!" asks @@RANDOMNAME@@, lawyer for the pro-life activists. "These are public spaces, and my clients should have the liberty to get their views across. You might disagree with their opinion, but it would be draconian for the government to prohibit them from telling these women the truth about the procedure they are getting."
[effect]teenagers looking for free condoms can't enter health clinics without being bombarded with two dozen anti-abortion pamphlets
[stats]civil rights slightly decrease, political freedoms increase

[option]"The truth is that these abortion mills are killing thousands of children every year," cries @@RANDOMNAME@@, a local minister. "For the sake of human rights and legal equality, the government must stand up for the unborn and ban this immoral practice immediately."
[effect]the airline industry is booming as pregnant women book tickets for "weekend trips" overseas
[stats]civil rights decrease, social conservatism significantly increases, religiosity slightly increases, economy increases, wealth gap slightly increases, law & order spending increases, crime slightly increases, healthcare spending slightly decreases, education spending slightly increases

[option]"Shut your mouth, you stupid fundie!" screams militant antitheist @@RANDOMNAME@@. "All these wackos are doing is peddling their outdated misogyny, and I'm damn tired of it. The only way we'll make any real social progress is to put a stop to their hatemongering entirely. I insist that the whole anti-abortion movement be outlawed with stiff penalties for these anti-choice advocates."
[effect]preachers and little old ladies disappear from their homes at night and are never heard from again
[stats]civil rights decrease, political freedoms significantly decrease, law & order spending increases, social conservatism decreases, religiosity decreases, disappearance increases as a cause of death

[Yulis]

Name

Abortion Protests Out of Hand?

Description

Following several reports from the left-wing blogosphere that pro-life protesters have been harassing pregnant women attempting to procure abortions, the Feminist Party has proposed a bill that it says would protect access to clinics.

Validity

Valid only for nations with legalized abortion.

Options

[option]"Passing this bill would be an important step in advancing abortion rights," says pro-choice activist @@RANDOMNAME-FEMALE@@. "The fact of the matter is that these protesters are obstructing womyn as they try to enter clinics. When someone wants an abortion, the law ought to be on her side. Anti-abortion activists ought to be required to stand at least 25 meters away from the clinics they're protesting."
[effect]anti-abortion protests may not take place within 25 meters of clinics
[stats]civil rights slightly increase, political freedoms decrease

[option]"What about the right to free speech?!" asks @@RANDOMNAME@@, lawyer for the pro-life activists. "These are public spaces, and my clients should have the liberty to get their views across. You might disagree with their opinion, but it would be draconian for the government to prohibit them from telling these women the truth about the procedure they are getting."
[effect]anti-abortion sidewalk counseling is legal right up until a woman enters a clinic
[stats]civil rights slightly decrease, political freedoms increase

[option]"The truth is that these abortion mills are killing thousands of children every year," cries Fr. Jorge Francis, a local Catholic priest. "For the sake of equality and human rights, the government should stand up for unborn children and ban this immoral practice immediately."
[effect]abortion has been criminalized
[stats]civil rights decrease, law & order spending increases, social conservatism significantly increases

[option]"Shut your mouth, you stupid fundie!" screams militant atheist @@RANDOMNAME@@. "All these wackos are doing is eddling their outdated misogyny, and I'm damn tired of it. The only way we'll make any real social progress is to put a stop to their hatemongering entirely. insist that the whole anti-abortion movement be outlawed with stiff penalties for these anti-choice advocates."
[effect]the anti-abortion movement has been driven underground
[stats]civil rights decrease, political freedoms significantly decrease, law & order spending increases, social conservatism decreases, religiousness [decreases

Ok, nice issue, but it's got some issues (sorry)

I think it's a bit straightfoward. You ban abortion, "abortion has been criminalized". Why not "abortion mills are rapidly going out of business", then reduce the economy a bit and reduce social welfare. I like issues that mislead you a bit, then make you feel a bit bad about choosing them, because you didn't want "women and their six children are being ['to be' to fit into my sentence] snatched off the streets accused of being against abortion" after you choose option 4. "Teens are being bombarded by counsellors as they try to enter abortion clinics" is also better than the one you've got, I think. Apart from those, I like the actual options themselves, I don't like mucking with other people's dialogue that much because they probably think differently to how I do. I would fix the spelling of "women" in the first option though.


Edit: I discovered a few minutes after writing this reply that "Much Ado About Abortion" was sitting waiting to be answered

[Eireann Fae]

I would fix the spelling of "women" in the first option though.

"Womyn" is indeed a feminist term - taking the 'man' out of 'woman'.

I do like your suggestions wrt the effects, though. The funny and unexpected ones are the best :)

[Yulis]

I would fix the spelling of "women" in the first option though.

"Womyn" is indeed a feminist term - taking the 'man' out of 'woman'.

I do like your suggestions wrt the effects, though. The funny and unexpected ones are the best

Well I learned something new today, thank you.

[Christian Democrats]

Okay, here are some ideas for new effects. They're a little bit over the top.

Following new legislation in @@NAME@@ . . .

1. police escort anti-abortion activists to "free speech cages" if they try to express their views

2. teenagers looking for free condoms can't enter health clinics without being bombarded with two dozen anti-abortion pamphlets

3. the airline industry is booming as pregnant women book tickets for "weekend trips" overseas

4. preachers and little old ladies disappear from their homes at night, never to be heard from again

[Yulis]

Okay, here are some ideas for new effects. They're a little bit over the top.

Following new legislation in @@NAME@@ . . .

1. police escort anti-abortion activists to "free speech cages" if they try to express their views

2. teenagers looking for free condoms can't enter health clinics without being bombarded with two dozen anti-abortion pamphlets

3. the airline industry is booming as pregnant women book tickets to make "weekend trips" overseas

4. preachers and little old ladies disappear from their homes at night, never to be heard from again

Those are excellent! maybe a tiny bit too much, but that's the whole idea!

[Christian Democrats]

I've edited the effects and the stats.

I'm having some trouble with the stats on the third option: criminalize abortion. In the real world, there are too few examples of countries (Poland comes to mind) that have had abortion be legal and then illegal to predict what would happen as the result of recriminalization.

[Yulis]

I've edited the effects and the stats.

I'm having some trouble with the stats on the third option: criminalize abortion. In the real world, there are too few examples of countries (Poland comes to mind) that have had abortion be legal and then illegal to predict what would happen as the result of recriminalization.

Population would go up a bit (but you can't change that so) social welfare might go down, law and order could go up (exaggerate them a bit!) because you'd have to enforce it, taxes could go up

[Christian Democrats]

As the abortion debate rages in the General Assembly forum, does anybody else have any comments on this draft?

[Christian Democrats]

Does anyone else (maybe an issues editor) have any advice?

[Christian Democrats]

Are there going to be any more comments, or should I just submit this?

[Burgera]

It's pretty good, while option 1 (or 4) could also have some effect like denying pro-life activists medical treatment. "Free speech cages" are nice enough though.

[Jeckland]

I like it. Perhaps you could have a complete lunatic who tries to make abortion compulsory?

[Inventio]

I like it. Perhaps you could have a complete lunatic who tries to make abortion compulsory?

That seems a little too crazy even for an issue. Maybe there could be someone who suggests the government decide whether each fetus deserves to be born or should be aborted?

[Christian Democrats]

I like it. Perhaps you could have a complete lunatic who tries to make abortion compulsory?

That seems a little too crazy even for an issue. Maybe there could be someone who suggests the government decide whether each fetus deserves to be born or should be aborted?

I am trying to make this an issue about speech, not the abortion debate itself.

Option 1 -- restrict the protesters' speech
Option 2 -- protect the protesters' speech
Option 3 -- adopt the protesters' viewpoint
Option 4 -- outlaw the protesters' speech

Honestly, this issue could be about any topic. I chose abortion, though, because it is a heated topic.

[Thalbania]

[option]"The truth is that these abortion mills are killing thousands of children every year," cries Fr. Jorge Francis, a local Catholic priest. "For the sake of equality and human rights, the government must stand up for the unborn and ban this immoral practice immediately."
[effect]the airline industry is booming as pregnant women book tickets for "weekend trips" overseas
[stats]civil rights decrease, social conservatism significantly increases, religiosity slightly increases, economy increases, wealth gap slightly increases, law & order spending increases, crime slightly increases, healthcare spending slightly decreases, education spending slightly increases

I do no understand why it would have these effects. Care to clarify?

[Christian Democrats]

[option]"The truth is that these abortion mills are killing thousands of children every year," cries Fr. Jorge Francis, a local Catholic priest. "For the sake of equality and human rights, the government must stand up for the unborn and ban this immoral practice immediately."
[effect]the airline industry is booming as pregnant women book tickets for "weekend trips" overseas
[stats]civil rights decrease, social conservatism significantly increases, religiosity slightly increases, economy increases, wealth gap slightly increases, law & order spending increases, crime slightly increases, healthcare spending slightly decreases, education spending slightly increases

I do no understand why it would have these effects. Care to clarify?

Economy increases: (1) the airline industry booms, and (2) population growth leads to economic growth.

Wealth gap slightly increases: some social scientists believe that legalized abortion slightly reduces poverty -- poor women have fewer children. Thus, banning abortion would have the opposite effect; it would increase poverty slightly -- i.e., a larger wealth gap.

Education spending slightly increases: banning abortion leads to more children being born, which leads to more kids in schools.

Do these make sense?

[Panageadom]

Name

Abortion Protests Out of Hand?

Description

Following several reports from the left-wing blogosphere that pro-life protesters Instantaneously dismissive have been harassing pregnant women seeking abortions, the Feminist Party Not sure if the use of the word "feminist" (as a self-identifying feminist) biases the issue - so many people, I feel particularly in the States - have such a gut reaction against the term. Also, what if political parties don't exist. has proposed a bill that it says would protect access to clinics.

Validity

Valid only for nations with legalized abortion (see Issue #136: Options 1 & 4, Issue #183: Option 1).

Options

[option]"Passing this bill would be an important step in advancing abortion rights," says pro-choice activist @@RANDOMNAME-FEMALE@@ @@RANDOMFEMALENAME@@. "The fact of the matter is that these protesters are obstructing womyn As this is confusing, and would be a distinction you can't hear in speech, and is also one of the most frankly silly parts of feminism, I would scrap this. as they try to enter clinics. When someone wants an abortion, the law ought to be on her side Perhaps a short clarification that it is legal to have an abortion, and the law should protect people's freedom to exercise their rights would be in order here.. Anti-abortion activists ought to be required to stand at least 25 meters away from the clinics they're protesting."
[effect]police escort anti-abortion activists to "free speech cages" if they try to express their views
[stats]civil rights slightly increase, political freedoms decrease, law & order spending slightly increases

[option]"What about the right to free speech?!" asks @@RANDOMNAME@@, lawyer for the pro-life activists. "These are public spaces, and my clients should have the liberty to get their views across. You might disagree with their opinion, but it would be draconian for the government to prohibit them from telling these women the truth about the procedure they are getting."
[effect]teenagers looking for free condoms can't enter health clinics without being bombarded with two dozen anti-abortion pamphlets
[stats]civil rights slightly decrease, political freedoms increase

[option]"The truth is that these abortion mills are killing thousands of children every year," cries Fr. Jorge Francis, a local Catholic priest I believe NS is trying to get away from referencing particular real-life religions. Also, took me a moment to work out what "Fr." stood for.. "For the sake of equality and human rights, the government must stand up for the unborn and ban this immoral practice immediately. There are essentially several unconnected justifications here - equality, which I don't understand has relevance to abortion, human rights, and morality. It might be best to connect the three, or scrap one and explain the other two in slightly more depth."
[effect]the airline industry is booming as pregnant women book tickets for "weekend trips" overseas
[stats]civil rights decrease, social conservatism significantly increases, religiosity slightly increases, economy increases, wealth gap slightly increases, law & order spending increases, crime slightly increases, healthcare spending slightly decreases, education spending slightly increases

[option]"Shut your mouth, you stupid fundie!" screams militant atheist @@RANDOMNAME@@ "All these wackos are doing is peddling their outdated misogyny, and I'm damn tired of it. The only way we'll make any real social progress is to put a stop to their hatemongering entirely. I insist that the whole anti-abortion movement be outlawed with stiff penalties for these anti-choice advocates."Oh dear...and here I was just about to say that this was an extraordinarily well-written issue and that I hoped it got fast tracked into the pool. As an ex-militant-but-still-pretty-hardcore atheist, this is silly and offensive. Words to remove may include "shut your mouth", "stupid fundie", "militant", "wackos".
[effect]preachers and little old ladies disappear from their homes at night, never to be heard from again (This is still funny though.)
[stats]civil rights decrease, political freedoms significantly decrease, law & order spending increases, social conservatism decreases, religiosity decreases, disappearance increases as a cause of death

Comments and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

The thing I'm not quite getting from this issue, which I think might be an interesting and difficult thing to work in, is the way that the "simple protest" model doesn't really work. To take a personal anecdote, I went to a talk given by Marine Le Pen, an extremely right-wing French politician, because I was interested in hearing what all the kerfuffle was about. There was a protest going on outside, and let's face it, they didn't politely step aside when I wanted to go in - I had to be escorted in by the police, who were maintaining a human wall to stop them breaking into the building. Obviously it was in everyone's rights to 1) invite Le Pen to speak and 2) protest that she was, but I'm not sure where the responsibility to protect people's rights to enter the building lies - I didn't mind being called a fascist (in this issues' context, "babykiller") on my way in, but I wouldn't have much liked to get into a fight with one of the protestors, and clearly the police had to get involved in protecting me from that. And obviously it's worse for something that people believe is murder.

[Sanctaria]

Just a few quick points on the description.

We've used pro-life and pro-choice in descriptions in the past (Much Ado About Abortion) so there's not really a problem in using it in the description here too.

Pana does have a point about political parties however so I would consider a different grouping here (Doctors For Choice, Women's Rights Now etc.) if I were the author.

Also we're trying to cut down on "left wing/right wing [occupation]" in issues so I would also have a look at re-phrasing "left-wing blogosphere". Stylistically speaking, I hate the word blogosphere, so if I was editing this I'd change that but that's just me.

[Sanctaria]

On a more general point, and I'm not saying this as a ruling or anything of the sort this is just professional curiosity, what makes you, the author, think this to be anything different than a current issue on the books dealing with out-of-hand protests? I think the one we currently have gives the example of a protest going too far and a police officer dies.

I ask this because you said this isn't about abortion persay, it's just about out-of-hand protests on a heated issue.

[Christian Democrats]

I've made a few changes to the draft and plan to make more in the coming days.

Following several reports from the left-wing blogosphere that pro-life protesters Instantaneously dismissive

Why?

For the sake of equality and human rights, the government must stand up for the unborn and ban this immoral practice immediately. There are essentially several unconnected justifications here - equality, which I don't understand has relevance to abortion, human rights, and morality. It might be best to connect the three, or scrap one and explain the other two in slightly more depth.

Many pro-lifers argue that unborn children are entitled to legal equality.

How do you suggest I try to connect the arguments in this option?

As an ex-militant-but-still-pretty-hardcore atheist, this is silly and offensive.

Aren't most sterotypes on this game -- racial, religious, etc. -- silly and offensive? How would this over-the-top stereotype be any different?

On a more general point, and I'm not saying this as a ruling or anything of the sort this is just professional curiosity, what makes you, the author, think this to be anything different than a current issue on the books dealing with out-of-hand protests? I think the one we currently have gives the example of a protest going too far and a police officer dies.

I ask this because you said this isn't about abortion persay, it's just about out-of-hand protests on a heated issue.

The protest theme seems to be common in issues (and it's a theme I like). The word "protest" comes up about 100 times in the issues right now. Environmentalism, for some reason, seems to be especially common. I think, in addition to what we have now, there should be a protest question on a social issue; and the abortion debate seems controversial enough to be realistic.

[Panageadom]

[Stripped out quoting quotes because I couldn't get my head around the formatting]

On dismissiveness, it really comes from the phrase "left wing blogosphere".

On equality, when I read "equality" in a political context, I tend to associate it with socio-economic equality, rather than legal equality. Might want to make that clearer, or just subsume the point under human rights.

On linking the arguments, I'm not really sure how you could - in my opinion, a sensible conception of civil rights is inherently devoid of a normative moral background (apart that individuals should have the right to make their own normative decisions). Possibly connected through a kind of either-or statement (either it's immoral, or you have to protect rights, in either case, you have to do something).

On atheist stereotypes, I think I just don't really like it because it's not very clever (not saying all NS parodies are) or accurate (although my conception of radical atheists is based on my own, and British atheists, so I might be wrong). If it helps, I got into an argument with a couple of Christian chaps the other day, about the priveliged position of Christianity in [my educational institution]; I got rather unpleasant, and the accusations I levelled included things along the lines of how I thought it was ridiculous that we should take our morals from a bunch of unshaven six-thousand year-old goatherds, and that it was ridiculous that in a society (obviously slightly more relevant in a university context) where we pride ourselves in giving individuals the trust to make up their own minds about things, we should bias them from the very start with a background of historical dogma. (Apologies if this is irritating, just trying to give some first-hand source for what atheist fundamentalists are really like).

[Sanctaria]

On a more general point, and I'm not saying this as a ruling or anything of the sort this is just professional curiosity, what makes you, the author, think this to be anything different than a current issue on the books dealing with out-of-hand protests? I think the one we currently have gives the example of a protest going too far and a police officer dies.

I ask this because you said this isn't about abortion persay, it's just about out-of-hand protests on a heated issue.

The protest theme seems to be common in issues (and it's a theme I like). The word "protest" comes up about 100 times in the issues right now. Environmentalism, for some reason, seems to be especially common. I think, in addition to what we have now, there should be a protest question on a social issue; and the abortion debate seems controversial enough to be realistic.

If it's coming up that frequently then it's likely we're not too gone on adding more like it, to be quite honest.

Like I said, this isn't a ruling or anything, just me commenting.

[Braylandia]

Allow it if the women's life is at risk. If they continue then warn them that all abortion will be illegal and they will shut up!

[Ze Destroyers]

I'v just got an issue with the word misogyny, seeing as this word has become somewhat of a hate speech towards men term. Other than that, i think the issue is decent enough.