Osiris Fraternal Order: Abdication of the Pharaoh

[Vaculatestar64]

I applaud the measured and restrained response of the current government of Osiris. If this were me I might have taken that extra step to a declaration of war.

However, The Grey Wardens action here signify just how hypocritical they are as an organization. Criticizing raiders as an evil force to be destroyed, but then turning around to do the same. This isn't the first time they have raided obviously, the other notable one being when they tagged BoSS.

[Tim-Opolis]

However, The Grey Wardens action here signify just how hypocritical they are as an organization. Criticizing raiders as an evil force to be destroyed, but then turning around to do the same. This isn't the first time they have raided obviously, the other notable one being when they tagged BoSS.

The fact that you're claiming we're hypocrites demonstrates not our hypocrisy but rather your lack of knowledge of The Grey Wardens. I'll point you to the last three sentences of our widely publicized creed.

It is the goal of this order to efficiently defeat as many invaders as possible as frequently as needed. We are not the white knights who clamor for the approval of our peers. We embrace the darkness and shall follow our enemy wherever they attempt to spread the blight.

Furthermore, if we go look at another post within the the TGW thread, the following segment can be clearly seen.

Yes. I think this may come as a surprise to some, but I am no longer labeling the Grey Wardens as a defender organization. Many are uncomfortable with a defender organization that invades regions, therefore we won't be one. Yes, that means I intend to invade invader regions. Its one of the founding principles of the Order and if I can no longer call myself a defender because of this, then so be it. This move will just save everyone a lot of trouble.

I'm not sure what hypocrisy there is here, Vac. Our mission statement was clear from the second we game back as an Order this summer, our intent anything but hidden. I'm not sure how this is causing such an uproar now, given that The Grey Wardens made our intents very clear from the start. What's more odd is that Cormac spent so many months praising us, regardless of our clear anti-invader stance, and has only now reversed his stance, and not even from an invasion or any sort of hostile take-over but from a hawking of a region after it was allowed to cease to exist. In terms of Grey Warden actions taken against invaders, this is likely the mildest we've done yet. Where was all this outrage before, was it not politically convenient yet?

[Ikania]

Well Tim, he's not exactly known for being consistent

I'm interested though. TGW seems to have the whole 'dark knight' vigilante, chaotic good thing going on. What R/D label would fit you guys right?

[Tim-Opolis]

What R/D label would fit you guys right?

Whatever you want us to be, baby

[Harenhime]

Well Tim, he's not exactly known for being consistent

I'm interested though. TGW seems to have the whole 'dark knight' vigilante, chaotic good thing going on. What R/D label would fit you guys right?

They're 'Fendas instead of Defenders.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Well Tim, he's not exactly known for being consistent

I'm interested though. TGW seems to have the whole 'dark knight' vigilante, chaotic good thing going on. What R/D label would fit you guys right?

'dark knight' could work. I personally like to think that I'm a shade of grey when it comes to alignment. Maybe the mods could make an "anti-invader" tag and I could be the first to use it. Overall, I think Koth puts it best:

The Wardens don't need to justify shit, nobody does. It's fun, there's your justification

Being the classical "purist" defender got really dull, especially in the Predator era. I created the Wardens with the intent of taking the fight to invader regions as well as continuing my efforts to harm their ambitions in founderless regions. I think I've proven repeatedly that Invaders hate losing their regions just as much, if not more so, than the players they constantly victimize. The hypocrisy witnessed by gameplay does not lay with the Wardens, who did what they said they were going to do. It lays with those who aim to ostracize us for doing exactly as they do, after we told them that we were going to do it.

[Harenhime]

Why didn't the natives protect themselves?

Where were the Defenders to hel- oh that's right.

I find the Grey Warden's bragging on this matter to be highly ironic, given that whenever raiders hit up a place, we're "evil darkspawn". Apparently only the Fendas are allowed to justifiably attack anywhere. XD

Eh; I'd argue for one that TGW specifically stepped back and let us kick the fleas out of D12 untouched. Similar case in Dank Memes right now. They've made clear that if your going to tell them to fuck off and think you know better, or are in the case of at least one prominent flea at the time, on the headlong path towards DOS, among other things, that they'll leave you to your fate.

[Vaculatestar64]

I had these same thoughts before, I tend to stay off of the NS forums though. That is proven by my founding date and my post count. Many people younger in the game than I am have a significantly higher post count. I just stay off of here, it's a toxic forum, one of the most toxic forums I have EVER seen.

[Onderkelkia]

Being the classical "purist" defender got really dull, especially in the Predator era.

The non-rule-compliant "Predator" script had very little to do with the lack of success enjoyed by the Defender sphere before the last few months. It has been repeatedly demonstrated that it is entirely possible to trigger invasions at the necessary speeds to achieve large-scale tagging in a single update through manual triggering. The Black Hawks proved this last month when they broke the tag record using manual triggering. If "Predator" had never been invented, it is probable that much the same results - in terms of the effect on defenders at least - could have been obtained using rule-compliant scripts.

More importantly, what really undermined defenders over the last few years was not tag raids conducted using "Predator", which were fairly irrelevant. It was major occupations which piling efforts rendered impregnable to 'liberations' - a tactic which has been used regularly by raiding regions since 2011.

The use of the "Predator" script was completely unacceptable and downright stupid, but the woes of the Defender sphere cannot be blamed on it.

I think I've proven repeatedly that Invaders hate losing their regions just as much, if not more so, than the players they constantly victimize. The hypocrisy witnessed by gameplay does not lay with the Wardens, who did what they said they were going to do. It lays with those who aim to ostracize us for doing exactly as they do, after we told them that we were going to do it.

Any region has the prerogative of undertaking offensive military operations, but they must expect that the regions they target and the allies of the regions that they target will retaliate against them. The LKE for instance has always been quite prepared to deal with any hostilities from regions that we invade, should they be foolish enough to voluntarily continue a dispute with us - consider what we did to SCOP when they tried to retaliate for the UIAF invasion of Slavia. Equally, when we have been attacked, such as by the FRA, we have responded to their aggression. The FRA's offence in attacking United Kingdom of Britain in May 2010 was not that they were morally wrong but that they made the mistake of challenging the LKE and expecting to get away with it.

The fallacy of the Grey Wardens (and indeed several other defender organisations, whose behaviour has historically been similar, whatever the rhetorical differences which have now emerged) lies in the assumption that they serve as a kind of world police which exists outside of the dynamics which determine relations between other states. Defenders cannot lay claim to any kind of special status. You have no stake whatsoever which licenses you to interfere in disputes across the entire world with immunity from retaliation. When defenders take part in military operations (whether raids or defences), they should expect their interventions to be treated in the same way as if any other power engaged in entirely unprovoked aggression another region. Attacking another region, in this case by seizing one of its colonies, inevitably provokes a response from that region and the regions who are closely associated with it.

[Ikania]

Well Tim, he's not exactly known for being consistent

I'm interested though. TGW seems to have the whole 'dark knight' vigilante, chaotic good thing going on. What R/D label would fit you guys right?

'dark knight' could work. I personally like to think that I'm a shade of grey when it comes to alignment. Maybe the mods could make an "anti-invader" tag and I could be the first to use it. Overall, I think Koth puts it best:

The Wardens don't need to justify shit, nobody does. It's fun, there's your justification

Being the classical "purist" defender got really dull, especially in the Predator era. I created the Wardens with the intent of taking the fight to invader regions as well as continuing my efforts to harm their ambitions in founderless regions. I think I've proven repeatedly that Invaders hate losing their regions just as much, if not more so, than the players they constantly victimize. The hypocrisy witnessed by gameplay does not lay with the Wardens, who did what they said they were going to do. It lays with those who aim to ostracize us for doing exactly as they do, after we told them that we were going to do it.

My burning hatred for your organization has died somewhat.

[Benevolent Thomas]

1) I don't identify as a defender. It's mentioned in the post you quoted.

2) I don't expect nor did I ask for special treatment. I said I was going to engage in hostilities with invader regions and I'm honestly surprised with the lack of reaction up to this point. Did I ever claim that Osiris has no right to be upset? Nope. I just think it is funny, considering their desired goal to do something similar to other regions that have never engaged in hostilities with Osiris. I refounded Islamic Republics of Iran with the goal of upsetting invaders and it worked.

[Shizensky]

The non-rule-compliant "Predator"

I thought I was reading 1984 for a second.

I don't expect nor did I ask for special treatment. I said I was going to engage in hostilities with invader regions and I'm honestly surprised with the lack of reaction up to this point.

Everybody loves to watch bad news. Something weird happens when they're a part of story, though.

[Onderkelkia]

1) I don't identify as a defender. It's mentioned in the post you quoted.

Whether the Grey Wardens identifies as defender has no material bearing on my argument. Your whole set-up is based around characterising anyone whose military operations you oppose as "Darkspawn"/invaders, identifying "Darkspawn" as a distinct category of players which needs to be policed and undertaking military operations against them, without any provocation committed against you on their part. You are merely taking it a step further by acknowledging that you attack the regions of "raiders" as well as their military operations (even though defenders have always behaved aggressively towards "raiders").

2) I don't expect nor did I ask for special treatment. I said I was going to engage in hostilities with invader regions and I'm honestly surprised with the lack of reaction up to this point.

You complained about the Grey Wardens being "ostracize[d]" for attacking Osiris on the grounds that this was hypocritical. If a region's motivation is upholding its own sovereignty and it rejects the application of universal moral principles to military gameplay, it is entirely consistent for it to retaliate against those attack it, while at the same time being willing to attack others. In complaining about the Grey Wardens being "ostracised" by Osiris, you are pointing to the prior operations performed by Osiris and claiming that this grants legitimacy - special status - to the Grey Wardens in opposing Osiris.

Direct retaliation for an attack is obviously going to come after an attack, rather than before that attack has taken place. Therefore I see no justification for your surprise that it is only now that formal counter-measures are announced against the Grey Wardens. It might indeed be sensible to take pre-emptive measures against a clear security threat and several prominent non-defender regions, including the LKE, have long regarded the Grey Wardens as a threat to the interests of any region which refuses to subscribe to defender ideology, especially any colonial power. Equally, when such measures are denounced as "overreaction" even after a serious breach of sovereignty has occurred, you can understand why regions wait until they are directly attacked before acting.

In actuality, the Pharaoh of Osiris publicly expressed concern about aggression by the Grey Wardens directed against game-created regions, including Osiris, back in July. You are therefore simply wrong to suggest that it is only now that Osiris has recognised that the Grey Wardens was willing to engage in hostilities against it. Perhaps you would have preferred it if regions like Osiris and Balder had launched a propaganda campaign against the Grey Wardens which fits in with your self-image; you evidently seem disappointed that your notoriety as an enemy of "raiders" has not been proclaimed previously. In fact, the wider defender sphere has long been aggressive towards non-defender regions and the Grey Wardens merely represents a continuation of that threat.

[Canton Empire]

I'm surprised that this did not result in war. I mean, that was a really crappy thing for TGW to do, shame on them, regardless of your stance on the new OFO

[Cormactopia II]

Furthermore, if we go look at another post within the the TGW thread, the following segment can be clearly seen.

Yes. I think this may come as a surprise to some, but I am no longer labeling the Grey Wardens as a defender organization. Many are uncomfortable with a defender organization that invades regions, therefore we won't be one. Yes, that means I intend to invade invader regions. Its one of the founding principles of the Order and if I can no longer call myself a defender because of this, then so be it. This move will just save everyone a lot of trouble.

I'm not sure what hypocrisy there is here, Vac. Our mission statement was clear from the second we game back as an Order this summer, our intent anything but hidden. I'm not sure how this is causing such an uproar now, given that The Grey Wardens made our intents very clear from the start. What's more odd is that Cormac spent so many months praising us, regardless of our clear anti-invader stance, and has only now reversed his stance, and not even from an invasion or any sort of hostile take-over but from a hawking of a region after it was allowed to cease to exist. In terms of Grey Warden actions taken against invaders, this is likely the mildest we've done yet. Where was all this outrage before, was it not politically convenient yet?

No, your mission statement was not clear. It would have been clear, had you not regularly assured me since joining the Grey Wardens that Osiris had nothing to worry about from the Grey Wardens despite its mission statement, and shouldn't be concerned that the Grey Wardens have stated a commitment to invade all raider regions, including Osiris. You gave me the impression this was gameplay hyperbole and that the Grey Wardens weren't a real threat to Osiris. You no doubt engaged in this misdirection to protect your position in Osiris, as you knew there was no way I was going to tolerate the presence of participants in an organization committed to invading Osiris and overthrowing our government. And so you mislead me, and several other Osiran government officials, into believing this wasn't a threat we should be worried about, and now you're pretending that this has always been clear all along and we shouldn't be surprised. You are the one who muddied the waters on this issue by misleading your regionmates in Osiris.

The Grey Wardens' mission is crystal clear now, however, as is your disloyalty to Osiris. Neither will pass any further without consequence.

[Ikania]

So salty to the person without whom you'd just be another citizen of Osiris under an elected Pharaoh.

[Block II]

For once I'm rooting for Corma's side on an issue! It's always lovely to see Tim taken down a notch. Never did I think it would a Cormac led Osiris that would be doing the hanging though.

[Vaculatestar64]

For once I'm rooting for Corma's side on an issue! It's always lovely to see Tim taken down a notch. Never did I think it would a Cormac led Osiris that would be doing the hanging though.

I know right?

[Cormactopia II]

So salty to the person without whom you'd just be another citizen of Osiris under an elected Pharaoh.

I hardly think you're in a position to talk about salt. Your every response to me in this forum for the past five months has been a mountain of salt because you failed to work your way into Osiris' government and pursue power for yourself in a game-created region, just like you failed to do previously in Lazarus and the West Pacific. If you think this is making anyone but yourself look bad, at this point, you're mistaken.

My responsibility as Pharaoh of Osiris is to all of Osiris, not just to Tim. Someone who is voluntarily, knowingly participating in an organization that has a stated commitment to invade Osiris cannot be trusted with government office in Osiris. That's not controversial, full stop.

[Ikania]

So salty to the person without whom you'd just be another citizen of Osiris under an elected Pharaoh.

I hardly think you're in a position to talk about salt. Your every response to me in this forum for the past five months has been a mountain of salt because you failed to work your way into Osiris' government and pursue power for yourself in a game-created region, just like you failed to do previously in Lazarus and the West Pacific. If you think this is making anyone but yourself look bad, at this point, you're mistaken.

My responsibility as Pharaoh of Osiris is to all of Osiris, not just to Tim. Someone who is voluntarily, knowingly participating in an organization that has a stated commitment to invade Osiris cannot be trusted with government office in Osiris. That's not controversial, full stop.

The only difference between you and I is that you had an empowered friend to relieve your salt. Your 'commitment to Osiris' was thrown out the window 5 months ago, and you know it.

[Cormactopia II]

The only difference between you and I is that you had an empowered friend to relieve your salt. Your 'commitment to Osiris' was thrown out the window 5 months ago, and you know it.

That's a funny, funny statement from someone who can't be bothered to participate in Osiris unless he can get some kind of power out of it, to someone who has been involved in Osiris for more than four years, made nearly 5000 posts on Osiris' current and previous forums, and has been active on a daily basis serving as Pharaoh of Osiris for the past five months. That is the difference between you and me, Ike.

[Ikania]

The only difference between you and I is that you had an empowered friend to relieve your salt. Your 'commitment to Osiris' was thrown out the window 5 months ago, and you know it.

That's a funny, funny statement from someone who can't be bothered to participate in Osiris unless he can get some kind of power out of it, to someone who has been involved in Osiris for more than four years, made nearly 5000 posts on Osiris' current and previous forums, and has been active on a daily basis serving as Pharaoh of Osiris for the past five months. That is the difference between you and me, Ike.

Well, it's not as if there's anything preventing me from going to Osiris and becoming contributor #1, now is there? No, definitely not. Not like everyone there is one of your supporters and everyone worth working for in the region has been kicked out.

Congrats, you had a head start on me. You've been in Osiris for four years and I've been on this site for three. And it really must speak to your character when after all that hard work and dedication, you still don't give two shits about the culmination of such dedication from the people you spurned and would rather tear it all down to rebuild in your perfect image. If all I'm motivated by is power, then so are you, you've just been doing it for longer.

And it's not like you haven't drifted to every region in this game pretending like you're super dedicated to the position you're running for the day after you gain citizenship, and leave the day after you aren't elected.

And it's not like every time I wade into the shit, I'm going to get anything else but another lie about how great of a person you are for saving your region. What you did is despicable, and so is the way you act. And I'm not going to stop calling out your bullshit when other people won't.

[The Dourian Embassy]

*snip*

I think the biggest point I can make here is that you don't really seem to have anything substantive to add to any of the discussions you have taken part in on this topic. I can't speak for the rest of your responses going back further than this Iran thing, but not one of your posts has been substantive since then. You've pretty much just spent the last two pages trying to provoke Cormac (or at the very least get as many digs in as you can at him and Osiris for whatever reason).

Do you have an issue with the response to the Grey Wardens here or simply an issue with Osiris? I'm not sure you actually think the response of Osiris is even over the top (because it clearly isn't and you've addressed that less than personally attacking Cormac), I think you just have to default to that position because you're angry with Osiris and/or Cormac.

If you can restrain your glee at someone attacking Osiris's sovereignty for a moment, I think you'd see this is a measured and well considered response (and well short of the declaration of war you've said it is). Or you can just keep on trying the passive aggressive (and sometimes less than passively) insult game. It is entertaining, I suppose, to watch you fail at that.

[Ikania]

*snip*

I think the biggest point I can make here is that you don't really seem to have anything substantive to add to any of the discussions you have taken part in on this topic. I can't speak for the rest of your responses going back further than this Iran thing, but not one of your posts has been substantive since then. You've pretty much just spent the last two pages trying to provoke Cormac (or at the very least get as many digs in as you can at him and Osiris for whatever reason).

Do you have an issue with the response to the Grey Wardens here or simply an issue with Osiris? I'm not sure you actually think the response of Osiris is even over the top (because it clearly isn't and you've addressed that less than personally attacking Cormac), I think you just have to default to that position because you're angry with Osiris and/or Cormac.

If you can restrain your glee at someone attacking Osiris's sovereignty for a moment, I think you'd see this is a measured and well considered response (and well short of the declaration of war you've said it is). Or you can just keep on trying the passive aggressive (and sometimes less than passively) insult game. It is entertaining, I suppose, to watch you fail at that.

The point I made in this circumstance concerns the irony of Cormac turning against the person who is solely responsible for him being Pharaoh right now in the first place. I'm not going to play a game of 'he started it' because it's irrelevant.

On the particular matter of the Wardens claiming one of your trophies, I've already made my thoughts clear. While for the most part I don't care, in all practicality this is just a fancy way to say "I'm really angry at you!" to Tim and company and point to some arbitrary concept of sovereignty to display disdain.

I'm here as long as he decides to continue to repeat the same old lies about his government, and make hypocritical statements.

[The Dourian Embassy]

*snip*

The language you're using betrays either a fundamental lack of knowledge or a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation. Instead of "Your view of Tim has changed in respect to his continued involvement with a group that has attacked Osiris," you say "You've turned against him." It's the language of someone trying to make a point, rather than someone who actually cares. Especially since there's nothing incongruous about reacting to current events.

Beyond that though, you say you don't care about a group that's taken hostile action against Osiris. Ok. Then you don't care about Osiris. That's fine. That's the position of many folk. But you've been using language here that indicates your caring for Osiris is why you hold the opinions you do. If we wanna talk about incongruity, can we talk about how you don't care about Osiris but are speaking as though you do for the sake of an attack line?

I'm just saying, you talk about Cormac here like he's destroyed a beautiful thing in one line and then talk about how you don't give a shit about any of it in the next one. Do you genuinely care but can't say it out loud without throwing an insult? Do you not care at all? Are you conflicted and just casting about randomly until something sticks?

Perhaps you need to reflect and decide what you're really thinking? Either way, until you do, your criticisms are coming across as incredibly ineffective and simply hostile for the sake of hostility. If you want to have an actual dialogue, you're going to need to leave your baggage outside.