Osiris Fraternal Order: Abdication of the Pharaoh

[Evil Wolf]

I'll also take credit for much of the diplomatic issues in 2014 if you don't mind. I was the Delegate for much of it and was deeply involved in whatever happened. I know people here like to paint Glen as some kind of evil mastermind, but I really wish people gave me some credit.

Oh, I'm more than willing to accept this fact, but it doesn't excuse either Glen or yourself from the absolute diplomatic disaster that the event was, especially given how predictable and avoidable it was, nor does it negate the fact that Glen personally wanted TSP to abandon its treaty with TNI and ultimately exactly that happened while he was MoFA.

*snip*

Ah, so TSP just had informal relations with Osiris. Officially informal relations with Osiris. Officially informal open diplomatic relations that could be, and now have been, closed.

Semantics, the result is the same.

[Sandaoguo]

Ah, so TSP just had informal relations with Osiris. Officially informal relations with Osiris. Officially informal open diplomatic relations that could be, and now have been, closed.

I'm sure Cormac will eventually leak the Cabinet's response to the request he sent us a month ago. But sure, whatever fits your narrative Wolf.

[Xoriet]

Can I also say just how undiplomatic it is to break relations and publicly insult a foreign region the way you just did? I really wish NS realised that there are alternatives to going Mad Max on diplomatic relations, not least of all because breaking relations is such an extreme alternative that you instantly destroy relations when a less consequential action could have worked just fine.

I think a lot of people do realize that; and there are a lot of leaders who do their best to maintain relations while working out whatever issues may arise. However, this is post-coup Osiris, and the leadership there thrives on drama. It's been sort of ironic (but not unexpected) to watch them claim that they were overthrowing democracy for the good of their region and to remove toxicity from their community; only to become the most consistently toxic community on an interregional level.

Perhaps the wrong people were purged; because the toxicity remains.

From Osiris? Hah. Not even close. The ones who really engendered toxicity are quite certainly gone, though.

Just because Osiris is internally nice doesn't mean Osiris has to be nice to people who are generally nasty to them. For example, I try to be nice to most people, but sometimes 'nice' just doesn't cut it. What you call 'toxic' is more like a pointed edge in dealing with people on whom niceness from them would be totally lost.

Politics are not about kumbaya around the fire, unfortunately.

*Which reminds me: Who are you again, and what do you even know about Osiris?

[Ryccia]

Can I also say just how undiplomatic it is to break relations and publicly insult a foreign region the way you just did? I really wish NS realised that there are alternatives to going Mad Max on diplomatic relations, not least of all because breaking relations is such an extreme alternative that you instantly destroy relations when a less consequential action could have worked just fine.

I think a lot of people do realize that; and there are a lot of leaders who do their best to maintain relations while working out whatever issues may arise. However, this is post-coup Osiris, and the leadership there thrives on drama. It's been sort of ironic (but not unexpected) to watch them claim that they were overthrowing democracy for the good of their region and to remove toxicity from their community; only to become the most consistently toxic community on an interregional level.

Perhaps the wrong people were purged; because the toxicity remains.

This is so true.

I think a lot of people do realize that; and there are a lot of leaders who do their best to maintain relations while working out whatever issues may arise. However, this is post-coup Osiris, and the leadership there thrives on drama. It's been sort of ironic (but not unexpected) to watch them claim that they were overthrowing democracy for the good of their region and to remove toxicity from their community; only to become the most consistently toxic community on an interregional level.

Perhaps the wrong people were purged; because the toxicity remains.

From Osiris? Hah. Not even close. The ones who really engendered toxicity are quite certainly gone, though.

Just because Osiris is internally nice doesn't mean Osiris has to be nice to people who are generally nasty to them. For example, I try to be nice to most people, but sometimes 'nice' just doesn't cut it. What you call 'toxic' is more like a pointed edge in dealing with people on whom niceness from them would be totally lost.

Politics are not about kumbaya around the fire, unfortunately.

*Which reminds me: Who are you again, and what do you even know about Osiris?

Let's see. Government contains a dictator who put himself after his minions lost an election, constantly contradicts himself and he and his friends snipe entire regions with baseless accusations, people who like to create drama, this new government likes drama and goes to the extreme...

Nah. I guess the toxicity is still there. According to Dr. Cormac, I'll prescribe you another coup, purge the current government and a destruction of relations with their side-effects(a.k.a. their friends of other regions).

[Xoriet]

Let's see. Government contains a dictator who put himself after his minions lost an election, constantly contradicts himself and he and his friends snipe entire regions with baseless accusations, people who like to create drama, this new government likes drama and goes to the extreme...

Nah. I guess the toxicity is still there. According to Dr. Cormac, I'll prescribe you another coup, purge the current government and a destruction of relations with their side-effects(a.k.a. their friends of other regions).

What do you even know about Osiris, either? You're a regionalist TSPer with a biased, misinformed grasp of how things work on the outside of TSP's interests. It is a TSP interest to discredit the current OFO. If you actually know more than what you learn from TSP, it sure isn't related to Osiris.

Tim and Cormac didn't even coup for the reasons people like to ascribe to them.

[Ryccia]

Let's see. Government contains a dictator who put himself after his minions lost an election, constantly contradicts himself and he and his friends snipe entire regions with baseless accusations, people who like to create drama, this new government likes drama and goes to the extreme...

Nah. I guess the toxicity is still there. According to Dr. Cormac, I'll prescribe you another coup, purge the current government and a destruction of relations with their side-effects(a.k.a. their friends of other regions).

What do you even know about Osiris, either? You're a regionalist TSPer with a biased, misinformed grasp of how things work on the outside of TSP's interests. It is a TSP interest to discredit the current OFO. If you actually know more than what you learn from TSP, it sure isn't related to Osiris.

Tim and Cormac didn't even coup for the reasons people like to ascribe to them.

I may not know much, but a coup is a coup, no matter how you paint it. The new "Osiris" is just an illegitimate government as the result of a forced regime. Like when Hile dissolved the Coalition and created a "Transitional Government". That wasn't legit.

[Xoriet]

I may not know much, but a coup is a coup. The new "Osiris" is just an illegitimate government as the result of a forced regime. Like when Hile dissolved the Coalition and created a "Transitional Government". That wasn't legit.

If you don't know much, you apparently are unaware that Osiris had and has allies who stand by them despite the deposition of a questionable elected government. Democracy was not doing Osiris any favors from the elections before it, so it was not a loss by any means. Democracy is an overrated concept and not always effective.

Besides, as far as I'm concerned, Koth and Cormac had a right and a stake in what the OFO really is, as they founded it with Venico originally. If anyone knows what the OFO was, it is Koth, Cormac, and Venico.

Hile did not have said stake.

[Sandaoguo]

If anyone knows what the OFO was, it is Koth, Cormac, and Venico.

And that's the problem. A GCR should not boil down to 3 people. Democracy worked just fine. It just wasn't going the way Cormac wanted it to.

[Xoriet]

If anyone knows what the OFO was, it is Koth, Cormac, and Venico.

And that's the problem. A GCR should not boil down to 3 people.

It doesn't. It boils down to more than that. Those three are simply those who began the process of creating the OFO. Some were lost, but others remain. Had they been truly in the wrong with this, the other original OFO members, aside from Raven, would have left as well.

[Ryccia]

I may not know much, but a coup is a coup. The new "Osiris" is just an illegitimate government as the result of a forced regime. Like when Hile dissolved the Coalition and created a "Transitional Government". That wasn't legit.

If you don't know much, you apparently are unaware that Osiris had and has allies who stand by them despite the deposition of a questionable elected government. Democracy was not doing Osiris any favors from the elections before it, so it was not a loss by any means. Democracy is an overrated concept and not always effective.

Besides, as far as I'm concerned, Koth and Cormac had a right and a stake in what the OFO really is, as they founded it with Venico originally. If anyone knows what the OFO was, it is Koth, Cormac, and Venico.

Hile did not have said stake.

Oh, then meet your RL counterparts! North Korea, China, Belarus, etc.!

Those countries are sad wrecks, ruled by iron fists and dictators. Civil rights destroyed, political freedoms crushed. They are not good places to live.

I guess Osiris should join them. They are so alike.

As I said, a coup is a coup, no matter how you paint it. Your government is illegitimate, and I wish it never happened. Even worse, it's full of hypocrites and opportunists linked to Cormac. How fun it must be to have so much power!

Democracies evolve from their founding fathers. If their founding fathers wanted to be unreasonable arrogant beings, not allowing change, then it never was a free democracy. It was a vigilated, pseudo-democracy.

[Xoriet]

As I said, a coup is a coup, no matter how you paint it. Your government is illegitimate, and I wish it never happened. Even worse, it's full of hypocrites and opportunists linked to Cormac. How fun it must be to have so much power!

Democracies evolve from their founding fathers. If their founding fathers wanted to be unreasonable arrogant beings, not allowing change, then it never was a free democracy. It was a vigilated, pseudo-democracy.

The U.S. isn't even a democracy. It's a republic. That aside:

The OFO I loved originally was lost over time. It deteriorated into what it was before the air was cleared in the recent transition. A very nasty place to be. It looks a lot more like the one Raven brought me to now. A little air-clearing never hurt anyone. Empire's coup of TEP birthed the government of today.

Besides, if you take a look at how the opposition government handled their attempts to overthrow Cormac, you can see what Osiris was in for.

Illegitimate governments can become legitimate, anyways. TP certainly did.

[Kringalia]

It is a TSP interest to discredit the current OFO.

I would be very surprised if it was. You seem to have the wrong perception about our interests when it comes to Osiris.

Oh, I'm more than willing to accept this fact, but it doesn't excuse either Glen or yourself from the absolute diplomatic disaster that the event was, especially given how predictable and avoidable it was, nor does it negate the fact that Glen personally wanted TSP to abandon its treaty with TNI and ultimately exactly that happened while he was MoFA.

I don't think it was a diplomatic disaster. I think losing the TNI alliance (while completely unintended) was one of the best things that could have happened. This loss was more than compensated by the gaining of two excellent allies in TRR and Lazarus, with whom we have good relations militarily and culturally, plus we had greater manoeuvrability with our foreign engagements and mutual respect from our treaty partners.

[The Ghost of Festavo]

I think a lot of people do realize that; and there are a lot of leaders who do their best to maintain relations while working out whatever issues may arise. However, this is post-coup Osiris, and the leadership there thrives on drama. It's been sort of ironic (but not unexpected) to watch them claim that they were overthrowing democracy for the good of their region and to remove toxicity from their community; only to become the most consistently toxic community on an interregional level.

Perhaps the wrong people were purged; because the toxicity remains.

Just because Osiris is internally nice

As a Pharaoh Emeritus and 4 term Scribe of War, I can say that this statement is highly debatable.

[Onderkelkia]

It also does not escape me that Balder has traditionally had very close ties with TNI, the other region that TSP terminated a treaty with because of Glen. I suspect this is not a coincidence.

Actually, TNI was part of the UIAF at the time and they terminated the treaty because TSP ratified the treaty with TRR, a member region of the FRA, whom they were at war with and considered it a conflict of interest.

First, you point out that "TNI was part of the UIAF at the time" as if that contributed to TNI's decision to terminate our treaty with TSP. The treaty termination had nothing to do with the UIAF. TNI's war on the Founderless Regions Alliance, and the policies associated with that war, go back to the invasion of Valhalla in 2006, long predating the first incarnation of the UIAF in 2010, never mind the incarnation of the UIAF which was in existence during 2014. The decision to terminate TNI's treaty with TSP was made by the Minister-President, following the unanimous consensus of the Cabinet of Ministers, on advice from the Monarch of TNI as well as the leadership of TNI's military and intelligence services. The decision was entirely in accord with long-standing TNI foreign policy doctrine and was subsequently approved by a unanimous motion of the Landtag. It had no connection with the UIAF.

Second, and more importantly, Glen-Rhodes should have been perfectly aware that the end of TSP's alliance with TNI was the inevitable result of TSP's choice to align itself with an enemy of TNI. It can hardly be said that TNI ever attempted to make a secret of our war with the FRA, its centrality to TNI foreign policy and our view that allying with an FRA region was incompatible with being an ally of TNI. Our stance had previously, for example, caused Europeia to cease treaty negotiations with TRR. When he first became TSP Foreign Minister, Glen-Rhodes instigated a meeting with me as TNI Foreign Minister, with Escade and Kringalia also present, intended to "clarify the relationship" - which largely consisted of him asking questions designed to put strain on our relations. In that conversation, where the prime issue became the acceptability of TSP-UDL military cooperation, I made clear that the relationship between TNI and TSP could not be meaningfully regarded as an alliance if TSP engaged in cooperation with our enemies against our own military. Making a commitment to defend TRR, when TNI's declared intent is (retaliatory) aggression against TRR as part of the FRA, was therefore wholly incompatible maintaining a political and security partnership with TNI - which is the essence of any alliance which is more than mere warm words.

What is more, when Belschaft and others raised questions in TSP's assembly (about the impact on TSP's alliance with TNI) in the course of their debate on allying with TRR, Glen-Rhodes assured them that it did not mean the end of the TNI treaty. In fact, Glen-Rhodes anticipated an adverse reaction from TNI. Our response was not merely foreseeable but foreseen. The majority of the TSP cabinet thread spent discussing their treaty with TRR was taken up with addressing the question of TNI's reaction and the desire of assembly members to stay allied with TNI, so they can hardly not have foreseen it. Indeed, on page 1 of that, Geomania says it in bold: "This will surely mean the end of the TNI treaty." Anyone with any knowledge of TNI foreign policy could have seen that. More than that, in real life as much as NationStates, no self-respecting state would remain an ally of another state after it decided to take the opposite side of war (in this case, by committing to the defence of The Rejected Realms against TNI). TSP knew full well what TNI's stance on TRR was when they originally entered into the alliance with TNI. They signed the alliance in the weeks immediately after TNI invaded TRR in February 2012. In forming the alliance with TSP, TNI made no suggestion that our policy on the FRA and TRR would change. Fundamentally, it was TSP's policy which reversed, to a position where promoting a pro-defender agenda was prioritised over the alliance with TNI. Glen-Rhodes was the key individual who changed it.

After the fact, Glen-Rhodes even explicitly boasted about his partnership with Unibot to undermine Independence and promote the Defender cause:

The reality is that the defender world, lead mostly by Unibot, became more and more obsessed about the political rise of imperialism and particularly the UIAF in 2013-14. Defenders utilized their influence in some GCRs to lean them towards defending, or to promote anti-imperialist sentiment in neutral or Independent regions. In 2014-15, Unibot and myself made a concerted push for the argument that Independence was within the imperialist sphere and merely a more palatable cover for imperialist gameplay in neutral regions. That culminated in the dissolution of the TSP-TNI alliance, which was a significant event in the "Cold War."

The end of the Balder treaty is just another strategic intervention in TSP's foreign affairs, utilising a crudely disguised pretext, now that he perceives a new threat in the form of the GCR Sovereignty Accords. Much like his view of the UIAF in 2013-15, his fears are based on a warped misunderstanding of reality, in this case rooted in the fact he detests the invocation of GCR sovereignty when he had previously appropriated that concept for defender purposes.

It's been exactly one treaty termination, and that was TNI. Or am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing the decision of Kantrias to terminate its treaty with TSP in August 2014.

[Tim Stark]

Just because Osiris is internally nice

As a Pharaoh Emeritus and 4 term Scribe of War, I can say that this statement is highly debatable.

A Pharaoh that can't even be bothered to tart except after weeks of everyone yelling at him to do so isn't exactly a great Pharaoh. Not sure you can use Pharaoh Emeritus as a useful card here.

[Yokiria]

Just because Osiris is internally nice

As a Pharaoh Emeritus and 4 term Scribe of War, I can say that this statement is highly debatable.

As a player that's known you since the day you first joined, I can say that you're hella biased in this and you know it.

[Yokiria]

I don't see why anyone keeps a treaty with you people, to be perfectly honest. If you didn't happen to be a GCR, the rest of us would recognize you as one of the worst UCR's in the game, and I'm really only kept from saying 'the worst UCR' because of NationStates' Nazi regions. So, when it came to severing relations, it's like you said, Ryccia.

Yeah, how about no. I may think TSP is an insufferable wreck in its politics, but I get to say that because I've spent three years in the midst of it all and have became a part of the community. I've helped draft laws and promote culture, I've joked around on the RMB and roleplayed from sunrise to sunset. I've earned the right to criticise TSP, Roavin has earned that right, Ryccia has earned that right, and even then I limit myself to criticise its politics and not its every aspect, because there is more to it, and most of it is beyond good, it's awesome.

You don't have any right to insult it like that, to the point of calling it marginally better than a Nazi region. You do what you want with Glen, but you stay the hell away from the region at large, because they are one of the best regional communities you will ever find, no thanks to the unbearable toxicity of this forum.

Before you can respond that you were merely talking about the government, just save it, because that was not the implication, and I'm sick as hell that people conflate our government with our region. They are different things, and while I despise the former, I think the latter is wonderful, and people would do well in thinking about them the next time they want to insult TSP the way you just did.

I never bought the excuse you kept pushing, Kris, that because TSP has cool roleplays and 'culture' that it's somehow not one of the worst regions out there. Your regional community is so great, absolutely none of it is translating into your regional government. You're still hanging onto the laurels of democracy. Having a good community that can repair its own government is one of the ONLY benefits of keeping a total democracy, and there's none of that in your region. I can't tell your citizens from your government members when they speak out. I thought Ryccia was a Minister!

So, in closing, I'm not merely talking about the government, anymore. I used to think the government was all TSP had wrong with it, mostly thanks to you, but I've realized it runs deeper than that. I don't expect you to realize it, Kris, and fully expect you to keep blaming your "insufferable wreck" of a government for all of TSP's woes.

[Alvalero]

Oh, then meet your RL counterparts! North Korea, China, Belarus, etc.!

Those countries are sad wrecks, ruled by iron fists and dictators. Civil rights destroyed, political freedoms crushed. They are not good places to live.

A friend of mine would disagree with China not being a good place to live considering he's been there nearly 2 years. There are worse democratic countries to live in. What works in 1 country may not work in another.

[Solorni]

So, in closing, I'm not merely talking about the government, anymore. I used to think the government was all TSP had wrong with it, mostly thanks to you, but I've realized it runs deeper than that. I don't expect you to realize it, Kris, and fully expect you to keep blaming your "insufferable wreck" of a government for all of TSP's woes.

Kring and Glen-Rhodes behaviour in TSP had led to the actions by Hileville to remove them as admins.

[The Ghost of Festavo]

As a Pharaoh Emeritus and 4 term Scribe of War, I can say that this statement is highly debatable.

A Pharaoh that can't even be bothered to tart except after weeks of everyone yelling at him to do so isn't exactly a great Pharaoh. Not sure you can use Pharaoh Emeritus as a useful card here.

That is not an accurate statement. I never lost the delegate seat (although I admit to having on close call). I tarted on a regular basis, but I wasn't hyperactive about it. If being a great Pharaoh is the only way to make your word count, unfortunately the entire coup government has no room to talk.

PS: "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."
-Margaret Thatcher

[Cormactopia II]

That is not an accurate statement. I never lost the delegate seat (although I admit to having on close call). I tarted on a regular basis, but I wasn't hyperactive about it. If being a great Pharaoh is the only way to make your word count, unfortunately the entire coup government has no room to talk.

PS: "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."
-Margaret Thatcher

We have no interest in political arguments with you. You are the one personally attacking us. Also, you are no Margaret Thatcher.

[Revall]

Festavo responded to the statement "Osiris is internally nice" with "As a former pharaoh that's highly debatable"

That is not a personal attack and since he was part of the community and the government his opinion actually includes himself.

[Festavo Vasentius Auditore]

That is not an accurate statement. I never lost the delegate seat (although I admit to having on close call). I tarted on a regular basis, but I wasn't hyperactive about it. If being a great Pharaoh is the only way to make your word count, unfortunately the entire coup government has no room to talk.

PS: "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."
-Margaret Thatcher

We have no interest in political arguments with you. You are the one personally attacking us. Also, you are no Margaret Thatcher.

What personal attacks are you talking about? My post was not a personal attack and it is unfortunate for you to construe it that way.

The quote was relevant, Cormac. I never claimed to be a Margaret Thatcher.

[Ryccia]

Yeah, how about no. I may think TSP is an insufferable wreck in its politics, but I get to say that because I've spent three years in the midst of it all and have became a part of the community. I've helped draft laws and promote culture, I've joked around on the RMB and roleplayed from sunrise to sunset. I've earned the right to criticise TSP, Roavin has earned that right, Ryccia has earned that right, and even then I limit myself to criticise its politics and not its every aspect, because there is more to it, and most of it is beyond good, it's awesome.

You don't have any right to insult it like that, to the point of calling it marginally better than a Nazi region. You do what you want with Glen, but you stay the hell away from the region at large, because they are one of the best regional communities you will ever find, no thanks to the unbearable toxicity of this forum.

Before you can respond that you were merely talking about the government, just save it, because that was not the implication, and I'm sick as hell that people conflate our government with our region. They are different things, and while I despise the former, I think the latter is wonderful, and people would do well in thinking about them the next time they want to insult TSP the way you just did.

I never bought the excuse you kept pushing, Kris, that because TSP has cool roleplays and 'culture' that it's somehow not one of the worst regions out there. Your regional community is so great, absolutely none of it is translating into your regional government. You're still hanging onto the laurels of democracy. Having a good community that can repair its own government is one of the ONLY benefits of keeping a total democracy, and there's none of that in your region. I can't tell your citizens from your government members when they speak out. I thought Ryccia was a Minister!

So, in closing, I'm not merely talking about the government, anymore. I used to think the government was all TSP had wrong with it, mostly thanks to you, but I've realized it runs deeper than that. I don't expect you to realize it, Kris, and fully expect you to keep blaming your "insufferable wreck" of a government for all of TSP's woes.

Since when culture doesn't matter? Since when politics is the only thing that matters? Geez, you have no culture then.

Culture is an important factor of any region. The more the merrier. Not everything has to be a war of words.

Osirian officials can be such jerks. I don't want to see what kind of region Osiris is.

[Solorni]

I never bought the excuse you kept pushing, Kris, that because TSP has cool roleplays and 'culture' that it's somehow not one of the worst regions out there. Your regional community is so great, absolutely none of it is translating into your regional government. You're still hanging onto the laurels of democracy. Having a good community that can repair its own government is one of the ONLY benefits of keeping a total democracy, and there's none of that in your region. I can't tell your citizens from your government members when they speak out. I thought Ryccia was a Minister!

So, in closing, I'm not merely talking about the government, anymore. I used to think the government was all TSP had wrong with it, mostly thanks to you, but I've realized it runs deeper than that. I don't expect you to realize it, Kris, and fully expect you to keep blaming your "insufferable wreck" of a government for all of TSP's woes.

Since when culture doesn't matter? Since when politics is the only thing that matters? Geez, you have no culture then.

Culture is an important factor of any region. The more the merrier. Not everything has to be a war of words.

Osirian officials can be such jerks. I don't want to see what kind of region Osiris is.

I bet it's one where its members don't tell people that foreigners aren't welcome there.