Illegal Script Usage "Predator": Punishments

[Liberonscien]

It means any region could be killed in the future except the Pacifics and the founderless regions.

Do not confuse between a nation (which just happens to be the founder of a region) getting deleted for rulebreaking by its owner, and a region getting emptied by Moderation for egregious structural rulebreaking going on within said region and/or the organization it represents/belongs to.

Also: game-created regions are not immune to punishments such as these. There may not be a founder, but everything else applies equally.

I'm almost certain this won't matter, but I'll ask anyway to be on the safe side. My region was tag raided in its early days. We won't feel any effects of this, will we?

Edit: Also, my old region was legitimately invaded, but three natives remain and all of the invaders were expelled. Will anything happen to the region?

Regions invaded in the past are not affected by this ruling. If they were still held, they have been / will be released back to the natives prior to the invasion. If need be file a GHR.

Ballotonia

So, if a Game created region did this, it could be perma banned?

[Grenartia]

Except, you know, there's not always a similar name avaliable. There's also not always an easy way to move all the active members somewhere else, when there's no way to contact them all at once. Then there's the issue of the history of the region that was invaded being lost forever. At least with this current setup, natives finally have some measure of fucking justice, they can get their home regions back. All I hear from you is the same old tripe raiders constantly spout to shift responsibility away from themselves.

1. I find that this is degenerating into a pro/ant raider argument, which was never my intent. For my part and that of the other non-leadership, I accept no blame because nothing blameworthy was done. Your views on raiders are apparently as poor as my view toward your rhetoric. You complain that protecting or refounding aren't easy and decry the destruction of their history, 2. yet you care nothing for DEN's history or the literal impossibility of refounding with a similar name. 3. What was taken legitimately through in-game mechanics from those conquered regions could always be reclaimed, especially if their community took even the most miniscule initiative at preservation. 4. DEN's history, name, and community were annihilated by administration with no recourse. That is pure, unbiased truth, not conjecture. 5. Perhaps to hypocrites and anti-raiding zealots, this seems an equal and just thing, 6. but this loss is objectively more severe and permanent than any raid. 7. Like I said, I have no strong tie to raiderdom. I liked DEN and its members. I will miss it, and I find the moderation action disproportionate to the offence. I have no more to say on the issue.

1. Given your statements, I find that hard to believe.

2. Because you only care for them as a means to an end, that end being to continue disregarding those very same things for natives. You don't get to lecture me from any moral high ground, as a raider. Your leadership fucked up, and the punishment was deserved. The harshness is necessary in order to send a message.

3. Yet more raider gaslighting. You always tell us "this wouldn't happen to you if you'd have built a higher wall". And when we do, you build a taller ladder. Wash, rinse, repeat.

4. Why should you get any recourse when you left no recourse for those whose histories, names, and communities you've annihilated? Accept your punishment and be grateful you're still allowed on here and still allowed to raid.

5. The only hypocrites I see are the ones complaining that this is unjust.

6. Tell that to the countless victims of raiding.

7. Hardly sounds that way from where I'm standing.

[Talanis Collective]

1. I find that this is degenerating into a pro/ant raider argument, which was never my intent. For my part and that of the other non-leadership, I accept no blame because nothing blameworthy was done. Your views on raiders are apparently as poor as my view toward your rhetoric. You complain that protecting or refounding aren't easy and decry the destruction of their history, 2. yet you care nothing for DEN's history or the literal impossibility of refounding with a similar name. 3. What was taken legitimately through in-game mechanics from those conquered regions could always be reclaimed, especially if their community took even the most miniscule initiative at preservation. 4. DEN's history, name, and community were annihilated by administration with no recourse. That is pure, unbiased truth, not conjecture. 5. Perhaps to hypocrites and anti-raiding zealots, this seems an equal and just thing, 6. but this loss is objectively more severe and permanent than any raid. 7. Like I said, I have no strong tie to raiderdom. I liked DEN and its members. I will miss it, and I find the moderation action disproportionate to the offence. I have no more to say on the issue.

1. Given your statements, I find that hard to believe.

2. Because you only care for them as a means to an end, that end being to continue disregarding those very same things for natives. You don't get to lecture me from any moral high ground, as a raider. Your leadership fucked up, and the punishment was deserved. The harshness is necessary in order to send a message.

3. Yet more raider gaslighting. You always tell us "this wouldn't happen to you if you'd have built a higher wall". And when we do, you build a taller ladder. Wash, rinse, repeat.

4. Why should you get any recourse when you left no recourse for those whose histories, names, and communities you've annihilated? Accept your punishment and be grateful you're still allowed on here and still allowed to raid.

5. The only hypocrites I see are the ones complaining that this is unjust.

6. Tell that to the countless victims of raiding.

7. Hardly sounds that way from where I'm standing.

As we have zero hope of reaching any kind of middle ground, I find this discussion moot. If you wish to argue further, start a new thread, message me a link, and we can rehash this until the carpal tunnel kicks in and we have to go get casts put on. My night's clear and this month's netfix additions suck. You can argue I'm guilty of all these offences, I can argue that you are. Go ahead and build a bigger wall, but try and realize when you are banging your head into it.

[The Candy Lane]

Except, you know, there's not always a similar name avaliable. There's also not always an easy way to move all the active members somewhere else, when there's no way to contact them all at once. Then there's the issue of the history of the region that was invaded being lost forever. At least with this current setup, natives finally have some measure of fucking justice, they can get their home regions back. All I hear from you is the same old tripe raiders constantly spout to shift responsibility away from themselves.

I find that this is degenerating into a pro/ant raider argument, which was never my intent. For my part and that of the other non-leadership, I accept no blame because nothing blameworthy was done.

Yeah, ok. Good thing no one was asking for blame-takers.

Your views on raiders are apparently as poor as my view toward your rhetoric. Perhaps to hypocrites and anti-raiding zealots, this seems an equal and just thing, but this loss is objectively more severe and permanent than any raid. Like I said, I have no strong tie to raiderdom. I liked DEN and its members. I will miss it, and I find the moderation action disproportionate to the offence. I have no more to say on the issue.

I know a lot of what DEN/TBR did was just graffiti but you clearly don't realize the impact raiding has had on communities.
Also, the punishment was meant to be more severe, that is so that people who think "nothing blameworthy was done" don't go try repeating this nonsense.


Edit: As for Netflix, I've been watching The Last Kingdom, it's decent so far. Only 3 episodes in.

[Talanis Collective]

I find that this is degenerating into a pro/ant raider argument, which was never my intent. For my part and that of the other non-leadership, I accept no blame because nothing blameworthy was done.

Yeah, ok. Good thing no one was asking for blame-takers.


Edit: As for Netflix, I've been watching The Last Kingdom, it's decent so far. Only 3 episodes in.

Actually the...fine individual... I was responding did explicitly accuse me of "shifting blame" as though I had done something wrong. I stand by my lack of raider dedication. I only defend it because, from a purely logical standpoint, it falls within defined mechanics of the game and solutions to combat or prevent it are obvious and plentiful. Saying it harms communites, but having zero respect or even recognition of the perma-ban of another community is hypocritical. Of course, as I've never actually raided, mine is an intellectual rather than practical defence. Besides, my initial post was expressing anger and sadness for my permanently lost region, not unwavering support of raiding. Heck, I don't even really have anything against that yoyo I've been arguing with, I just hate being misquoted and bombarded with faulty logic. As for your netfix suggestion, I'll give it a go. Has to be better than Bob's Burgers. Of course, so is footage of a rectal prolapse.

[Nelson R Mandela]

Would one be penalized for refounding one of TBR's formerly occupied regions?

[Grenartia]

Yeah, ok. Good thing no one was asking for blame-takers.


Edit: As for Netflix, I've been watching The Last Kingdom, it's decent so far. Only 3 episodes in.

Actually the...fine individual... I was responding did explicitly accuse me of "shifting blame" as though I had done something wrong. I stand by my lack of raider dedication. I only defend it because, from a purely logical standpoint, it falls within defined mechanics of the game and solutions to combat or prevent it are obvious and plentiful. Saying it harms communites, but having zero respect or even recognition of the perma-ban of another community is hypocritical. Of course, as I've never actually raided, mine is an intellectual rather than practical defence. Besides, my initial post was expressing anger and sadness for my permanently lost region, not unwavering support of raiding. Heck, I don't even really have anything against that yoyo I've been arguing with, I just hate being misquoted and bombarded with faulty logic. As for your netfix suggestion, I'll give it a go. Has to be better than Bob's Burgers. Of course, so is footage of a rectal prolapse.

Ignoring everything else directed at me (because what I'm about to address seems to be the crux of the disagreement here), does it not stand to reason that in order to prevent harm to communities, one must rid the site of communities dedicated to actively destroying other communities? You cannot logically stand for keeping communities intact whilst allowing the biggest threat to them to continue to exist. If a doctor vows to keep a patient healthy, but refuses to treat the patient's cancer, out of concern for the health of the tumor, then how can you claim the doctor is keeping the patient healthy?

[The Candy Lane]

Saying it harms communites, but having zero respect or even recognition of the perma-ban of another community is hypocritical. Of course, as I've never actually raided, mine is an intellectual rather than practical defence.

How is it hypocritical? I recognize that Raiding harms communities, I and many other defenders would rather see raiding and the communities built around them cease to exist or exist separately from game play. TBR/DEN broke the rules to give it an edge on two occassions. That group showed, and the mods clearly agreed, that this was a community the game was better off without.

[Talanis Collective]

Actually the...fine individual... I was responding did explicitly accuse me of "shifting blame" as though I had done something wrong. I stand by my lack of raider dedication. I only defend it because, from a purely logical standpoint, it falls within defined mechanics of the game and solutions to combat or prevent it are obvious and plentiful. Saying it harms communites, but having zero respect or even recognition of the perma-ban of another community is hypocritical. Of course, as I've never actually raided, mine is an intellectual rather than practical defence. Besides, my initial post was expressing anger and sadness for my permanently lost region, not unwavering support of raiding. Heck, I don't even really have anything against that yoyo I've been arguing with, I just hate being misquoted and bombarded with faulty logic. As for your netfix suggestion, I'll give it a go. Has to be better than Bob's Burgers. Of course, so is footage of a rectal prolapse.

Ignoring everything else directed at me (because what I'm about to address seems to be the crux of the disagreement here), does it not stand to reason that in order to prevent harm to communities, one must rid the site of communities dedicated to actively destroying other communities? You cannot logically stand for keeping communities intact whilst allowing the biggest threat to them to continue to exist. If a doctor vows to keep a patient healthy, but refuses to treat the patient's cancer, out of concern for the health of the tumor, then how can you claim the doctor is keeping the patient healthy?

*sigh* I'm legitimately starting not to like you on a personal level. DEN was not annihilated because it raided. Raiding, whether you like it or not, is not against the rules and not what I ever intended to discuss from post #1. The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious. Even if it was super-duper serious and threatened the entire existence of the game, I think "guilty by association" punishment is ridiculous and uncalled-for. The big, inescapable difference between what raiders do and what was done to DEN is the opportunity to refound or recapture. That is the whole raider/fenda dynamic. Now, if the Mods gave exec delegates the option to permanently destroy a region and ban any form of refound, we would be on the same side. Please, I beg you, tell me you comprehend the difference.

[Neu California]

Ignoring everything else directed at me (because what I'm about to address seems to be the crux of the disagreement here), does it not stand to reason that in order to prevent harm to communities, one must rid the site of communities dedicated to actively destroying other communities? You cannot logically stand for keeping communities intact whilst allowing the biggest threat to them to continue to exist. If a doctor vows to keep a patient healthy, but refuses to treat the patient's cancer, out of concern for the health of the tumor, then how can you claim the doctor is keeping the patient healthy?

*sigh* I'm legitimately starting not to like you on a personal level. DEN was not annihilated because it raided. Raiding, whether you like it or not, is not against the rules and not what I ever intended to discuss from post #1. The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious. Even if it was super-duper serious and threatened the entire existence of the game, I think "guilty by association" punishment is ridiculous and uncalled-for. The big, inescapable difference between what raiders do and what was done to DEN is the opportunity to refound or recapture. That is the whole raider/fenda dynamic. Now, if the Mods gave exec delegates the option to permanently destroy a region and ban any form of refound, we would be on the same side. Please, I beg you, tell me you comprehend the difference.

I'm curious what your response to this post would be:

For those saying that only a few people used Predator, I have a question: should those who directly benefitted from others using Predator (IE the raiders being coordinated by the Predator users for finding and raiding targets) be exempt from punishment over the whole thing? Why or why not? And all the raider gains made relying on this script, should they be considered legitimate even though they were accomplished with illegal tools? Why or why not?

My personal answer: On the first, even if you think what you're doing is perfectly legal and seems that way on the surface, if it's illegal, or is done with an illegal aid, it's still illegal (ignorance of the law is no excuse), and, on the second, any gains made through illegal methods become forfeit when said illegality is detected, and it should be no different here. Also a blanket approach was the only reasonable way to ensure all their ill gotten gains were taken away, unless you have some way of telling which raids were made with Predator help and which weren't.

Edit: also, here's an interesting post by [violet] during the last illegal script scandal, basically explaining the blanket action in another way

[Talanis Collective]

Saying it harms communites, but having zero respect or even recognition of the perma-ban of another community is hypocritical. Of course, as I've never actually raided, mine is an intellectual rather than practical defence.

How is it hypocritical? I recognize that Raiding harms communities, I and many other defenders would rather see raiding and the communities built around them cease to exist or exist separately from game play. TBR/DEN broke the rules to give it an edge on two occassions. That group showed, and the mods clearly agreed, that this was a community the game was better off without.

Again, despite my constant assertion of non-loyalty, I will defend the position that this was not a punishment for raiding. It was not an admin condemnation, it was not a rule change. I understand some people hate raiding. I hated that frakking turtle shell in Mario Kart. Both are within the rules, and it is at least possible, even simple, to prevent a raid or recapture a region. I apply the tag of hypocrisy because you, and many others, laugh and jeer at the irreversible destruction of a community, yet act as if the totally reversible and preventable raid-led destruction is a horrible travesty. Never once did I assert that no rules were broken, but not even the leadership was DOSed, so it seems entirely unfair that DEN itself was DOSed. Also, and I'm legitimately curious, how could raiding exist independently from gameplay?

[Talanis Collective]

*sigh* I'm legitimately starting not to like you on a personal level. DEN was not annihilated because it raided. Raiding, whether you like it or not, is not against the rules and not what I ever intended to discuss from post #1. The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious. Even if it was super-duper serious and threatened the entire existence of the game, I think "guilty by association" punishment is ridiculous and uncalled-for. The big, inescapable difference between what raiders do and what was done to DEN is the opportunity to refound or recapture. That is the whole raider/fenda dynamic. Now, if the Mods gave exec delegates the option to permanently destroy a region and ban any form of refound, we would be on the same side. Please, I beg you, tell me you comprehend the difference.

I'm curious what your response to this post would be:

For those saying that only a few people used Predator, I have a question: should those who directly benefitted from others using Predator (IE the raiders being coordinated by the Predator users for finding and raiding targets) be exempt from punishment over the whole thing? Why or why not? And all the raider gains made relying on this script, should they be considered legitimate even though they were accomplished with illegal tools? Why or why not?

My personal answer: On the first, even if you think what you're doing is perfectly legal and seems that way on the surface, if it's illegal, or is done with an illegal aid, it's still illegal (ignorance of the law is no excuse), and, on the second, any gains made through illegal methods become forfeit when said illegality is detected, and it should be no different here. Also a blanket approach was the only reasonable way to ensure all their ill gotten gains were taken away, unless you have some way of telling which raids were made with Predator help and which weren't.

Edit: also, here's an interesting post by [violet] during the last illegal script scandal, basically explaining the blanket action in another way

Hmm, well I suppose I'd put up this hypothetical. Suppose an investment firm made billions through insider trading. When they get caugth, which sounds fair 1)Punishing the executives who knew about it and confiscating their assets or 2) Seizing the assets and property of every single employee and investor regardless of guilt, then banning everyone from ever forming a company with a similar name ever again? In my view you punish the guilty, maybe disband the organisation, but you don't go after the people that had no clue it was happening. Would you support option 2?

[Talanis Collective]

Also, I'm aware the lower DENizens weren't punished on par with leadership, but we still are suffering the loss of our community.

[Grenartia]

Ignoring everything else directed at me (because what I'm about to address seems to be the crux of the disagreement here), does it not stand to reason that in order to prevent harm to communities, one must rid the site of communities dedicated to actively destroying other communities? You cannot logically stand for keeping communities intact whilst allowing the biggest threat to them to continue to exist. If a doctor vows to keep a patient healthy, but refuses to treat the patient's cancer, out of concern for the health of the tumor, then how can you claim the doctor is keeping the patient healthy?

*sigh* I'm legitimately starting not to like you on a personal level. 1. DEN was not annihilated because it raided. 2. Raiding, whether you like it or not, 3. is not against the rules and not what I ever intended to discuss from post #1. 4. The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious. 5. Even if it was super-duper serious and threatened the entire existence of the game, I think "guilty by association" punishment is ridiculous and uncalled-for. 6. The big, inescapable difference between what raiders do and what was done to DEN is the opportunity to refound or recapture. 7. That is the whole raider/fenda dynamic. 8. Now, if the Mods gave exec delegates the option to permanently destroy a region and ban any form of refound, we would be on the same side. 9. Please, I beg you, tell me you comprehend the difference.

1. I never said it was.

2. I'm saying (and have always said), that it should be against the rules. I'm entirely aware that it holds a special status. However, the way things are or have been, has no impact on the way things should be.

3. Claims were made (not by you) regarding the "allure" of R/D regarding the site as a whole. I and others have been disputing those claims. And then you came along, and gave the Standard Raider Non-Responsibility Lines, which were and are plainly false to anybody who bothers to put any thought behind it.

4. You fail to mention that those "few people" are at the core of DEN's operations. Its plainly obvious, even by your own words ("a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious"), that there is a culture in raiderdom that views itself as entitled. What else can you call the attitude that rules attempting to enforce some standard of fair play are 'not that serious', that those who break said rules don't deserve real punishments (especially when previous forms of punishment haven't done anything to dissuade the rulebreakers), that barging into communities and dismantling and disrupting them is "fun"?

5. When it comes down to an attitude that clearly pervades raiderdom, a message needs to be sent, and its impacts need to be felt, and felt hard.

6. Both of which, I have already explained, the raiders themselves have denied to natives. So why should raiders get that consideration? Moderation clearly decided that the best way for raiderdom to straighten up and fly right is for its most prominent rulebreakers (and its most prominent community members) to get a taste of their own damn medicine.

7. A dynamic, which I've clearly stated, should ideally go away from this site entirely, as a game mechanic. Or, at the very least, should be better able for those of us uninterested in this game of sandcastle-kicking to segregate ourselves from (see: previous discussions on Associations).

8. Why should that be done?

9. No, I honestly don't.

[Grenartia]

Also, and I'm legitimately curious, how could raiding exist independently from gameplay?

Implement Associations.

[Talanis Collective]

Also, and I'm legitimately curious, how could raiding exist independently from gameplay?

Implement Associations.

Fraid I have to plead ignorance here. Are you proposing an opt-in system? I've seen that on here before, but the simple fact that only raiders and defenders would opt in sort of negates that. Honesly, I think the reason raiding is legal is simple: look at how heated the debate is. I've never even done it, yet I'm on here arguing about it. Raiding and defending bring passion to the core game, without which it would grow tiring quickly. I know, I barely made it 2 months the first time because voting in the WA and deciding repetitive issues gets tedious. Without raiding, the RMBs and RP forums would be the only thing differentiating NS from a news website's comment section. Passion keeps people active, which in turn makes money. Seriously, NS started as a publicity stunt to hock a book. It has become more because it was allowed to, the way Rocky Horror became a cult hit thanks to some people figuring out how to have fun with it. Am I making any sense?

[Ramaeus]

The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious.

Scripts give a massive advantage in GP. Information, automation of dull actions, etc. Having access to things that grant you information or do an incredibly dull task for you is a large advantage. If one side doesn't have access to scripts or uses scripts that follow the rules, then it naturally gives their opponent an advantage if they disregard the rules or have access to a tool that automates certain actions.

[Talanis Collective]

The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious.

Scripts give a massive advantage in GP. Information, automation of dull actions, etc. Having access to things that grant you information or do an incredibly dull task for you is a large advantage. If one side doesn't have access to scripts or uses scripts that follow the rules, then it naturally gives their opponent an advantage if they disregard the rules or have access to a tool that automates certain actions.

That is the most sensible position I've seen. From that, I can say that punishing those using the illegal script should be punished, with those who did so knowingly getting the worst. Still can't support the perma-destruction of all things DEN, though. Still, since no money changed hands, no structural damage occurred to the game, and there still existed foolproof methods to protect regions, I still don't think the rule is on par with, say, having multiple WA nations per person.

[Tim-Opolis]

The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious.

That's nice kid, but those are the rules, and TBR (then evolving into DEN) skirted illegal scripting rules not once, but twice. The rules are there to be followed, particularly those with scripts. There are rate limits for a reason, and so on and so forth. They're expected to be followed, and fortunately you don't exactly get to, personally, decide which rules are and aren't serious.

Moderation evidently considered it serious, given this is one of the biggest crackdowns this side of Regional Influence, and you're going to have to accept that.

[Grenartia]

Implement Associations.

1. Fraid I have to plead ignorance here. 2. Are you proposing an opt-in system? I've seen that on here before, 3. but the simple fact that only raiders and defenders would opt in sort of negates that. 4. Honesly, I think the reason raiding is legal is simple: look at how heated the debate is. I've never even done it, yet I'm on here arguing about it. 5. Raiding and defending bring passion to the core game, without which it would grow tiring quickly. I know, I barely made it 2 months the first time because voting in the WA and deciding repetitive issues gets tedious. 6. Without raiding, the RMBs and RP forums would be the only thing differentiating NS from a news website's comment section. Passion keeps people active, which in turn makes money. Seriously, NS started as a publicity stunt to hock a book. It has become more because it was allowed to, 7. the way Rocky Horror became a cult hit thanks to some people figuring out how to have fun with it. Am I making any sense?

1. See:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=303696
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=303133&hilit=Associations
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=276700&hilit=Associations
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=275968&hilit=Associations

2. I guess it depends on how you look at it, as to whether its opt-in, or opt-out. Either way, its an opt, and a desperately needed and desired one.

3. And? That's not good enough for you? You still get to raid. We just don't have to put up with it anymore. Unless you want to admit that forcing people into it is the only thing that makes raiding fun, at which point, I have to say that it deserves to go.

4. You're arguing in defense of it. That's why there's an argument.

5. And? I contend that you can have just as much passion over it without forcing everybody else into it.

6. Without raiding, people wouldn't be forced into something they wanted no part of in the first place. They could simply play the game, join the regional communities, or even RP on the fora. No fear of somebody kicking over their sand castles.

7. Figuring out how to have fun with Rocky Horror never involved kicking over other people's sandcastles.

[Talanis Collective]

1. I never said it was.

2. I'm saying (and have always said), that it should be against the rules. I'm entirely aware that it holds a special status. However, the way things are or have been, has no impact on the way things should be.

3. Claims were made (not by you) regarding the "allure" of R/D regarding the site as a whole. I and others have been disputing those claims. And then you came along, and gave the Standard Raider Non-Responsibility Lines, which were and are plainly false to anybody who bothers to put any thought behind it.

4. You fail to mention that those "few people" are at the core of DEN's operations. Its plainly obvious, even by your own words ("a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious"), that there is a culture in raiderdom that views itself as entitled. What else can you call the attitude that rules attempting to enforce some standard of fair play are 'not that serious', that those who break said rules don't deserve real punishments (especially when previous forms of punishment haven't done anything to dissuade the rulebreakers), that barging into communities and dismantling and disrupting them is "fun"?

5. When it comes down to an attitude that clearly pervades raiderdom, a message needs to be sent, and its impacts need to be felt, and felt hard.

6. Both of which, I have already explained, the raiders themselves have denied to natives. So why should raiders get that consideration? Moderation clearly decided that the best way for raiderdom to straighten up and fly right is for its most prominent rulebreakers (and its most prominent community members) to get a taste of their own damn medicine.

7. A dynamic, which I've clearly stated, should ideally go away from this site entirely, as a game mechanic. Or, at the very least, should be better able for those of us uninterested in this game of sandcastle-kicking to segregate ourselves from (see: previous discussions on Associations).

8. Why should that be done?

9. No, I honestly don't.

Despite every single shred of experience and reason I posses telling me that any attempt to engage with you is futile, just this once I'll play along and refute you point by point. But this time I'm serious, if you want to keep going you need to make a new topic to continue this on and link me to it. I feel that we are getting closer to a threadjacking and, since I've been critical of the Mods already, I don't really want to give them reason to put the screws to me.

1) In the post I replied to, your entire argument was about how raiders communities didn't deserve to exist because you and others don't like them and think they harm the game. Either you jumped way off topic, or this was relevant to our prior discussion.

2) That is your opinion. My opinion is that you shouldn't be able to play a draw four in UNO if it is on someone that is down to less than 2 cards. The thing is, just because I don't like a game mechanic, I don't have the right to deny other people the right to use it. Honestly, you strike me as one of those people that thinks people using glitches and exploits in single-player rpg's are horrible cheaters that don't deserve to play the game. I'm not a fan of that logic.

3) Unless you, or someone else, conducts a poll or statistical study on the raider/fenda participants vs. total game population, then there can be no "patently obvious" conclusion here. Subjectively, and with limited experience, I think it does add to the game. Addressing issues and voting in the WA is boring. Drafting resolutions, engaging in RP, and chatting in the RMBs are the only enjoyable things this game offers outside of raiding. All those things, except raiding, can be found on a dozen other sites or forums. Raiding is the only unique draw of NS, and that is why it is still around. I posit that making it illegal would drastically drop site traffic, but likely not destroy NS altogether.

4) In RL, if the leadership is corrupt, you don't bomb a nation or region to dust and shrug at civilian casualties. You certainly don't ban anyone from ever reforming the government. You call raiders entitled? You seem to classify yourself and other "like-minded" players as "entitled" to not have to deal with raiding, even though it isn't against the rules. I expressed an opinion that the rules that were broken, over-submitting requests to the servers and masking them, didn't break the game or really affect anyone noticeably. Predator was in use for a loooong time and no one was sure enough of its legal status to stop it until now. If it was that low-key, it wasn't that big of a deal. It apparently made raiding easier, not possible in the first place. Is using an auto-miner on WoW equal to hacking accounts and stealing gold? One is more serious than the other.

5) And what message was sent? Break rules and we'll DOS 2 people, temp ban a few more, and destroy a region? The raiders will spread to other regions, people will likely still cheat if they don't think they will be caught, at least any time soon. Honestly, I bet you can even circumvent a DOS if you use a proxy or something like Tor. I don't really know, and I certainly don't advocate it, but it seems logical. Your cause was not furthered, and several people, including myself, will relocate and move on with nothing more than fond memories of what was. It makes me sad, but in two weeks it will be forgotten.

6) You make claims, but that is all. Defenders exist to reclaim regions, which they do all the time. Just because a group might have to refound as "The New Purple Tater-tots" instead of "The Purple Tater-Tots" doesn't mean they were denied anything. If the community is important to members and knows it is vulnerable to raids, then create a roster, back up the factbook, and archive the rmb. Then, either move before you are raided or be ready to reform if you are. DEN had no chance to do these things as we were given no reason to expect this nuclear option. Even if we did, the ban on anything DEN prevents it. If you can't see the difference, then you are bias-blind.

7) Opt-out would never work. If you could opt-out of invasions, then WWII would never have happened. Max won't add a war mechanic, and any attempt to cripple this one destroys it. Every time I have ever seen anyone complain about a game mechanic, there is a chorus of ppl screaming "Well, just don't play if you don't like it!" I won't go that far, but stop acting like you have some moral high-ground. Raiding isn't illegal. Go to a secure region and you never have to experience it. Problem solved.

I wasn't arguing it should be done, I was presenting an equivalent situation to what has been done to DEN. It's a clear parallel, one that implies that situation would be a bad thing. Read it again and it should make sense.

9) I can see that. You disregard anything that doesn't support you viewpoint and offer no objective logic or evidence to support you suppositions. Your logic is unsound, so you go on the attack.

I reiterate, this is my last response to you on this thread. Create a new topic, or go talk to someone else.

[Zacherie]

2. I guess it depends on how you look at it, as to whether its opt-in, or opt-out. Either way, its an opt, and a desperately needed and desired one.

I am going to bring up the tired point to your tired argument.
Who decides who gets to opt in and opt out. What stops raiders and defenders from arbitrarily using the opt out feature to make their liberations and invasions uncontestable

3. And? That's not good enough for you? You still get to raid. We just don't have to put up with it anymore. Unless you want to admit that forcing people into it is the only thing that makes raiding fun, at which point, I have to say that it deserves to go.

We don't get to because every region in the game will opt out. We use a basic mechanic of the game. If you want WA delegates to be thrown out, sure. Your solution is short sighted.

6. Without raiding, people wouldn't be forced into something they wanted no part of in the first place. They could simply play the game, join the regional communities, or even RP on the fora. No fear of somebody kicking over their sand castles.

If you don't want to be raided, either join the WA and make an endopile so big your region is unattractive, make your WA non-executive, get defenders to help you setup border control ROs, or have a founder. The solutions are many and plentiful, and I'm using one right now on my own region now that it's founderless. If we raiders can deal with our regions becoming founderless, surely you can too.
I know for a fact that if you have even 5 endorsements on your delegate, that puts you out of the range of most tag raids.

[The Batorys]

Raiders complaining about their regions being taken away.


Hilarious.

[Talanis Collective]

The entire DEN-sphere is disbanded FOREVER because of a few people breaking a rule that, personally, I don't think was all that serious.

That's nice kid, but those are the rules, and TBR (then evolving into DEN) skirted illegal scripting rules not once, but twice. The rules are there to be followed, particularly those with scripts. There are rate limits for a reason, and so on and so forth. They're expected to be followed, and fortunately you don't exactly get to, personally, decide which rules are and aren't serious.

Moderation evidently considered it serious, given this is one of the biggest crackdowns this side of Regional Influence, and you're going to have to accept that.

Only people I like can be condescending to me, little man. I don't like you. Don't call me kid again. To the rest of what you say, let me provide a RL example. I don't consider speeding to be as serious as murder. Most people don't That doesn't mean no one ever gets punished for speeding, but when they do, it isn't as severe as the punishment for murder. Speed limits exist for a reason, but giving people life and burning down their house for breaking them isn't proportionate. If you read my first post, you'd know that I don't contest mod authority and, in fact, I accept it because I never tried to say that they couldn't do what they did, I just disapprove of it and dislike the decision. Got it, champ?

[Tim-Opolis]

That's nice kid, but those are the rules, and TBR (then evolving into DEN) skirted illegal scripting rules not once, but twice. The rules are there to be followed, particularly those with scripts. There are rate limits for a reason, and so on and so forth. They're expected to be followed, and fortunately you don't exactly get to, personally, decide which rules are and aren't serious.

Moderation evidently considered it serious, given this is one of the biggest crackdowns this side of Regional Influence, and you're going to have to accept that.

Only people I like can be condescending to me, little man. I don't like you. Don't call me kid again. To the rest of what you say, let me provide a RL example. I don't consider speeding to be as serious as murder. Most people don't That doesn't mean no one ever gets punished for speeding, but when they do, it isn't as severe as the punishment for murder. Speed limits exist for a reason, but giving people life and burning down their house for breaking them isn't proportionate. If you read my first post, you'd know that I don't contest mod authority and, in fact, I accept it because I never tried to say that they couldn't do what they did, I just disapprove of it and dislike the decision. Got it, champ?

Well Buckaroo, I've been around a long time in this game, let me tell you. And here's the thing, Sport, this game isn't Real Life. It sure may feel like it sometimes, and we can get emotionally involved in it, but it's not. To draw parallels is simply pointless, as real-world laws do not and should not apply to our online game. Moderation has a precedent for this level of crackdown with the LKE case, so it should have been expected. Sorry that you lost your community, kiddo, but I'm sure DEN will find a new way to slink back as a different name, and re-form, so you'll be able to bond with them again soon. And that's great that you said it, lad, but all of your posts afterwards consisted of you complaining about the ruling, or arguing over why raiding shouldn't be banned, something that isn't the topic of this thread.