NationStates

He wants Festavo to resign, why does that seem so familiar...

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:

Soames wrote:
Why should we start down an implausible path of removing important members of our region when we can simply implement controls to ensure that this doesn't occur again? For example, Klaus is already working on a constitutional amendment.

Whether or not that applies to this case, sometime those things are the same. See: Community response to Predator.

Yeah, except we have no process for removing people from the Council of Elders, and it's a meaningless position anyway. And we have no process to "recall" a SM. So this is just a political wet dream.

Soames wrote:

Cormactopia II wrote:Removal of 95 Block as an Elder and forum administrator -- which shouldn't be a controversial step for Grand Central anyway, given that he has twice destroyed Grand Central's forums in the past -- and recall of Festavo from the office of Stationmaster. At that point, we would accept that Grand Central as a community is taking this matter seriously enough. Anything short of that is just an attempt to sweep this under the rug. They are the ones who were responsible for this, to varying degrees, and they are the ones who should face consequences for it in Grand Central.

Why should we start down an implausible path of removing important members of our region when we can simply implement controls to ensure that this doesn't occur again? For example, Klaus is already working on a constitutional amendment.

You should start down that path because you should care about your leaders' actions. You should be ashamed of them. That you are not is, honestly, incredibly alarming. And just to clarify, I haven't proposed "removing important members of [your] region." I proposed removing someone who has twice destroyed Grand Central's forums in the past and who personally masked Nuke and Feuer Ritter as citizens without community input from the position of forum administrator, and the recall of Stationmaster Festavo after he also authorized and defended Nuke's admission to citizenship. These should not be controversial proposals. Nobody is calling for them to be banned from Grand Central, but the least Grand Central could do is remove them from their positions of authority as the appropriate consequence for their actions.

In general, this is something Grand Central's community needs to accept in a hurry: There are consequences for your actions and the actions of your leaders. The Black Riders and DEN refused to accept that. They are no longer around to tell the tale.

I'm sure amending your constitution and laws to ensure that this can't happen again is also a good step to take, but you have to hold your leaders accountable. Again, all you have to do is look at raiderdom's recent history to see what happens when you fail to hold your leaders accountable.

Soames wrote:

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Whether or not that applies to this case, sometime those things are the same. See: Community response to Predator.

Yeah, except we have no process for removing people from the Council of Elders, and it's a meaningless position anyway. And we have no process to "recall" a SM. So this is just a political wet dream.

And, following the hypothetical here, processes can't be made? New things can't be done to allow for unforseen circumstances? Things can;t ever be done for a first time? hmpf. There wasn't a "process" for saying we'd never work with any region where a list of people led things, or for anyway any of the community expanded on Predator. We sat down, had some long and careful conversations, and forged a new path. Well, now you've got your own predator scandal, just another sort or predator. And your excuse is coming across a bit flat.

And if it's so meaningless, how come it's so important? And Forum adminship is defiantly not meaningless, especially when your forum admin removes three prominent members from forum adminship with nary an explanation.

LMAO, when does GC care what Osiris thinks?

Cormactopia II wrote:You should start down that path because you should care about your leaders' actions. You should be ashamed of them. That you are not is, honestly, incredibly alarming.

I'm not going to feel ashamed because of somebody else's actions. That would be absurd.

And just to clarify, I haven't proposed "removing important members of [your] region." I proposed removing someone who has twice destroyed Grand Central's forums in the past and who personally masked Nuke and Feuer Ritter as citizens without community input from the position of forum administrator, and the recall of Stationmaster Festavo after he also authorized and defended Nuke's admission to citizenship. These should not be controversial proposals. Nobody is calling for them to be banned from Grand Central, but the least Grand Central could do is remove them from their positions of authority as the appropriate consequence for their actions.

Yeah, we're not going to do that, because that's not something we can actually do. We're a region of laws. We respect our laws. We don't give into hysteria.

In general, this is something Grand Central's community needs to accept in a hurry: There are consequences for your actions and the actions of your leaders. The Black Riders and DEN refused to accept that. They are no longer around to tell the tale.

I'm sure amending your constitution and laws to ensure that this can't happen again is also a good step to take, but you have to hold your leaders accountable. Again, all you have to do is look at raiderdom's recent history to see what happens when you fail to hold your leaders accountable.

Our community's response to our leaders will be decided the next time we hold elections, Cormac, not by foreign entities insisting on it.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:

Soames wrote:
Yeah, except we have no process for removing people from the Council of Elders, and it's a meaningless position anyway. And we have no process to "recall" a SM. So this is just a political wet dream.

And, following the hypothetical here, processes can't be made? New things can't be done to allow for unforseen circumstances? Things can;t ever be done for a first time? hmpf. There wasn't a "process" for saying we'd never work with any region where a list of people led things, or for anyway any of the community expanded on Predator. We sat down, had some long and careful conversations, and forged a new path. Well, now you've got your own predator scandal, just another sort or predator. And your excuse is coming across a bit flat.

And if it's so meaningless, how come it's so important? And Forum adminship is defiantly not meaningless, especially when your forum admin removes three prominent members from forum adminship with nary an explanation.

Oh man. I'm really going to sit here and listen to this guy lecture me about our culture. He thinks the Council of Elders is an important institution here. There's not much insight he can have.

95 block wrote:LMAO, when does GC care what Osiris thinks?

An absolutely stunning response to the last few pages of this thread and the conversations within, of importance far beyond regional feuds and consisting of people from many more regions than just Osiris and GC. A gem of pure wisdom and maturity, really. 5/7.

95 block wrote:LMAO, when does GC care what Osiris thinks?

GC sould care what the rest of the gameplay community thinks. The only defense for your actions is coming from inside GC, and that should be a wake-up call.

Syberis wrote:

95 block wrote:LMAO, when does GC care what Osiris thinks?

GC sould care what the rest of the gameplay community thinks. The only defense for your actions is coming from inside GC, and that should be a wake-up call.

We're woke. Cormac wants to interfere in our affairs again. Same song and dance.

Soames wrote:

Syberis wrote:
GC sould care what the rest of the gameplay community thinks. The only defense for your actions is coming from inside GC, and that should be a wake-up call.

We're woke. Cormac wants to interfere in our affairs again. Same song and dance.

Man, how does that Flavor Aid taste?

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:

95 block wrote:LMAO, when does GC care what Osiris thinks?

An absolutely stunning response to the last few pages of this thread and the conversations within, of importance far beyond regional feuds and consisting of people from many more regions than just Osiris and GC. A gem of pure wisdom and maturity really. 5/7.

This is the internet. Nothing is important or serious. It's a shame the NS community is so unreasonably unforgiving. NS is a tool in which SJWs and people with disorders come to fight with each other through it seems, by the looks of the last few pages of this chat.

Grand Central is a welcoming region that believes in our law and second chances. I'll leave it at that.

Syberis wrote:

Soames wrote:
We're woke. Cormac wants to interfere in our affairs again. Same song and dance.

Man, how does that Flavor Aid taste?

Yeah, man. You've really gotta be indoctrinated to see foreign interference when people from Osiris want us to depose our elected leaders.

Plagentine wrote:

Cormactopia II wrote:Removal of 95 Block as an Elder and forum administrator -- which shouldn't be a controversial step for Grand Central anyway, given that he has twice destroyed Grand Central's forums in the past -- and recall of Festavo from the office of Stationmaster. At that point, we would accept that Grand Central as a community is taking this matter seriously enough. Anything short of that is just an attempt to sweep this under the rug. They are the ones who were responsible for this, to varying degrees, and they are the ones who should face consequences for it in Grand Central.

You are enjoying this way too much, Cormac. Take a breather.

If you think there's anything about this I'm enjoying, you are mistaken. I don't enjoy seeing a citizen of Osiris, and someone who is my friend, driven out of a region she had made major contributions to in favor of the person who has admitted in this thread that he sexually harassed her. I don't derive any enjoyment from having to try to hold you and the rest of your cohort accountable for that.

95 block wrote:LMAO, when does GC care what Osiris thinks?

If you think it's only Osiris, you're in for a rude awakening.

Soames wrote:

Cormactopia II wrote:You should start down that path because you should care about your leaders' actions. You should be ashamed of them. That you are not is, honestly, incredibly alarming.

I'm not going to feel ashamed because of somebody else's actions. That would be absurd.

You should be ashamed on behalf of your region. Thus far, you've given no indication that you care at all about anything except defending your leaders.

Soames wrote:

And just to clarify, I haven't proposed "removing important members of [your] region." I proposed removing someone who has twice destroyed Grand Central's forums in the past and who personally masked Nuke and Feuer Ritter as citizens without community input from the position of forum administrator, and the recall of Stationmaster Festavo after he also authorized and defended Nuke's admission to citizenship. These should not be controversial proposals. Nobody is calling for them to be banned from Grand Central, but the least Grand Central could do is remove them from their positions of authority as the appropriate consequence for their actions.

Yeah, we're not going to do that, because that's not something we can actually do. We're a region of laws. We respect our laws. We don't give into hysteria.

"Can't" and "won't" are not the same thing. You've already mentioned that you're considering constitutional amendments to address this issue. Obviously, you can amend your constitution and laws to be able to remove 95 Block as a forum administrator (and, if he won't go willingly, change forums), and you can amend your constitution and laws to be able to remove the Stationmaster from office. If you don't, that is a choice. There is no "can't."

Soames wrote:

In general, this is something Grand Central's community needs to accept in a hurry: There are consequences for your actions and the actions of your leaders. The Black Riders and DEN refused to accept that. They are no longer around to tell the tale.

I'm sure amending your constitution and laws to ensure that this can't happen again is also a good step to take, but you have to hold your leaders accountable. Again, all you have to do is look at raiderdom's recent history to see what happens when you fail to hold your leaders accountable.

Our community's response to our leaders will be decided the next time we hold elections, Cormac, not by foreign entities insisting on it.

In that case, I hope you enjoy being isolated from the rest of the gameplay community, and seeing regions that normally wouldn't defend and liberate working alongside defenders to make sure Grand Central stays in Grand Central. There is a virus in your region, a virus that has already infected and destroyed two raider regions and damaged others, and it's time for the rest of the gameplay world to man up and impose a cordon sanitaire around Grand Central. The history of The Black Riders and DEN will not be repeated over and over again like some bad NationStates parody of Groundhog Day.

95 block wrote:

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
An absolutely stunning response to the last few pages of this thread and the conversations within, of importance far beyond regional feuds and consisting of people from many more regions than just Osiris and GC. A gem of pure wisdom and maturity really. 5/7.

This is the internet. Nothing is important or serious. It's a shame the NS community is so unreasonably unforgiving. NS is a tool in which SJWs and people with disorders come to fight with each other through it seems, by the looks of the last few pages of this chat.

Grand Central is a welcoming region that believes in our law and second chances. I'll leave it at that.

...........this is not going to end well

Cormactopia II wrote:You should be ashamed on behalf of your region.

No, I shouldn't. That would be absurd too.

Can't" and "won't" are not the same thing. You've already mentioned that you're considering constitutional amendments to address this issue. Obviously, you can amend your constitution and laws to be able to remove 95 Block as a forum administrator (and, if he won't go willingly, change forums), and you can amend your constitution and laws to be able to remove the Stationmaster from office. If you don't, that is a choice. There is no "can't."

Right now, we're neither able nor willing. Possibly, we could become able and willing in the future, but probably not. Everybody who didn't like what happened has essentially already left. The residents in question are no longer citizens. So I don't see why we should go about changing up the whole system.

In that case, I hope you enjoy being isolated from the rest of the gameplay community,

I'm terrified. Petrified. Mortified. By you.

and seeing regions that normally wouldn't defend and liberate working alongside defenders to make sure Grand Central stays in Grand Central.

Nice. Twice the challenge, double the reward.

There is a virus in your region

It's you.

Let me state: I am utterly livid that Kemi has had to suffer needlessly because of the insensitivity of at least one other person who did not stop to think of the consequences of his actions before inviting and allowing two known people who should not have been allowed within a thousand metres of her onto what should have been a safe space.

I do not care how Grand Central addresses this, only that something is done to make it bloody well clear to those responsible that this sort of behaviour is not on. There was a bloody conference held by Mousebumples recently that dedicated a seminar to the prevention and protection of women from sexual harassment in NationStates, and although the discussion did get onto equal protection for all genders, it is utterly and completely astounding - not the good kind - that mere weeks after this well publicised event ended that this is happening.

Kemi is a dear friend of mine, and I have done my best at times, as has Cormac and numerous others in this thread to support her through the horrific experiences she's had to suffer through. The fact that anyone can be so callous and inconsiderate to have caused her to suffer sickens me to the core.

Lord Ravenclaw wrote:Let me state: I am utterly livid that Kemi has had to suffer needlessly because of the insensitivity of at least one other person who did not stop to think of the consequences of his actions before inviting and allowing two known people who should not have been allowed within a thousand metres of her onto what should have been a safe space.

I do not care how Grand Central addresses this, only that something is done to make it bloody well clear to those responsible that this sort of behaviour is not on. There was a bloody conference held by Mousebumples recently that dedicated a seminar to the prevention and protection of women from sexual harassment in NationStates, and although the discussion did get onto equal protection for all genders, it is utterly and completely astounding - not the good kind - that mere weeks after this well publicised event ended that this is happening.

Kemi is a dear friend of mine, and I have done my best at times, as has Cormac and numerous others in this thread to support her through the horrific experiences she's had to suffer through. The fact that anyone can be so callous and inconsiderate to have caused her to suffer sickens me to the core.

World's smallest violin.

Soames wrote:<snip>

Yep, it's the internal culture of "screw you, we'll do what we want" that characterized The Black Riders and DEN, all over again. This time it will be contained, and eventually smashed.

All of this arguing is pointless. It's pretty clear that the GC government is not going to be changed because of this, and it's clear that Osiris and GC won't have happy friendly relations, as much as I might want that to happen. It is not right for a region to be ruled by outside entities (after all, as someone once said 'Fancy statements in gameplay have never taken a delegacy'), nor is it right for the action of people who have done what Lord Nuke and Feuer Ritter have done to be ignored, which is not what GC did.

I'm part of both GC and Osiris, so I'm not taking a side in this, but I think it's just very clear that both regions should probably have very little to do with each other again, if this is the level of hostility that hangs between them.

95 block wrote:LMAO, when does GC care what Osiris thinks?

Not just Osiris.

95 block wrote:This is the internet. Nothing is important or serious. It's a shame the NS community is so unreasonably unforgiving. NS is a tool in which SJWs and people with disorders come to fight with each other through it seems, by the looks of the last few pages of this chat.

'People with disorders'. Huh. I wonder who that's directed at.
I'd rather have all these disorders than have your mind.

95 block wrote:Grand Central is a welcoming region that believes in our law and second chances. I'll leave it at that.

You had to overrule the government and your Stationmaster to allow Feuer Ritter in. Nuke left after he was given a second chance, in part because Grand Central stressed him out so much. Members are leaving left and right, and your friend Avakael stated he would never be returning because part of your reasoning for bringing Feuer and Nuke in was so appalling.

Then again, you're the one non-SJW true raider. All this must be everyone else's fault. You can't possibly be doing anything wrong.

Soames wrote:

Lord Ravenclaw wrote:Let me state: I am utterly livid that Kemi has had to suffer needlessly because of the insensitivity of at least one other person who did not stop to think of the consequences of his actions before inviting and allowing two known people who should not have been allowed within a thousand metres of her onto what should have been a safe space.

I do not care how Grand Central addresses this, only that something is done to make it bloody well clear to those responsible that this sort of behaviour is not on. There was a bloody conference held by Mousebumples recently that dedicated a seminar to the prevention and protection of women from sexual harassment in NationStates, and although the discussion did get onto equal protection for all genders, it is utterly and completely astounding - not the good kind - that mere weeks after this well publicised event ended that this is happening.

Kemi is a dear friend of mine, and I have done my best at times, as has Cormac and numerous others in this thread to support her through the horrific experiences she's had to suffer through. The fact that anyone can be so callous and inconsiderate to have caused her to suffer sickens me to the core.

World's smallest violin.

Ignorance in its purest form.

Cormactopia II wrote:

Soames wrote:<snip>

Yep, it's the internal culture of "screw you, we'll do what we want" that characterized The Black Riders and DEN, all over again. This time it will be contained, and eventually smashed.

Well we're certainly not going to get any better listening to the likes of you, are we?

"Nothing is important or serious?"

The only words I have for that would earn me a days ban, so I'll let you imagine them.

Soames wrote:

Lord Ravenclaw wrote:Let me state: I am utterly livid that Kemi has had to suffer needlessly because of the insensitivity of at least one other person who did not stop to think of the consequences of his actions before inviting and allowing two known people who should not have been allowed within a thousand metres of her onto what should have been a safe space.

I do not care how Grand Central addresses this, only that something is done to make it bloody well clear to those responsible that this sort of behaviour is not on. There was a bloody conference held by Mousebumples recently that dedicated a seminar to the prevention and protection of women from sexual harassment in NationStates, and although the discussion did get onto equal protection for all genders, it is utterly and completely astounding - not the good kind - that mere weeks after this well publicised event ended that this is happening.

Kemi is a dear friend of mine, and I have done my best at times, as has Cormac and numerous others in this thread to support her through the horrific experiences she's had to suffer through. The fact that anyone can be so callous and inconsiderate to have caused her to suffer sickens me to the core.

World's smallest violin.

You play your character well. You're little different to your real-life name sake, Nicholas Soames, MP. Take that as you will.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:The only words I have for that would earn me a days ban, so I'll let you imagine them.

Spooky.